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Old 22nd November 2016, 18:37   #40581  |  Link
seiyafan
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For those of you upscale 1080 videos to 1440, have you noticed any benefit of using NGU (then with a downscaler) vs. Jinc?
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Old 22nd November 2016, 18:48   #40582  |  Link
clsid
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Looking at the render times that various people have posted, maybe there is room for something in between NGU Medium and NGU High? With regard to naming, what about NGU low -> NGU1, NGU Med -> NGU2, etc?
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:08   #40583  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
For those of you upscale 1080 videos to 1440, have you noticed any benefit of using NGU (then with a downscaler) vs. Jinc?
I have, for animated content, the increased sharpness is pretty noticeable (bicubic 150 downscaling).
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:26   #40584  |  Link
har3inger
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Even NGU low is better for sharpness than jinc on 1080p->1440p, unless you crank SR for Jinc. High SR adds quite a bit of aliasing too.

@ Asmodian: I'm getting even better results with SSIM compared to bicubic 150. This could be entirely placebo on my part, however.

As for NGU on chroma, it is very sharp, which is fine (and desirable) on clean sources. If your sources have severe artifacts, which many rips will in the chroma channel, NGU will strongly emphasize them. Blocking becomes very obvious whenever it's present, whereas other scalers like reconsoft are able to hide most of it. Also, I've changed my mind about reconsoft vs bilateralsoftSR2; the former results in fewer artifacts and less flatness at the cost of slightly less sharp "pure chroma" elements like logos.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:47   #40585  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
Is a performance improvement possible with DXVA2 native hardware decoder for NGU, instead of DXVA2 copy-back for AMD?
DXVA2 hardware decoding or not really doesn't have anything to do with NGU. Decoding and scaling are two totally separate steps. If anything, native DXVA2 handling could be improved, but only on Windows 8.1+ and it would require LAV to be extended quite a bit, too, so I'm not sure and (or even if) that will happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzso View Post
Quick question: can I save a "source white level" setting as default? It doesn't offer F2 to save as other options such as the "source levels" setting.
No, it's not possible. The "source white level" setting is only there to fix specific problems with specific videos, so I don't think it makes sense to be able to save this setting. The "source levels" is a special case because of which it is saveable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrik G View Post
why is NGU "next generation" ? and what benefits does it have over NNEDI3 ?
what can NGU do that NNEDI3 cant?
It reaches a whole new quality, IMHO, and especially a whole new quality vs performance ratio. I'll post a more detailed comparison with a speed vs performance graph, when work on NGU is complete, but that will probably take a couple of weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrik G View Post
its probably not as sharp as NNEDI3 but it still has more details i think.
it feels more that sharpness now is back to normal while NNEDI3 had a few % of artificial sharpness that isnt there from the source?
like comparing 8bit to 10bit
If you want to compare NGU to NNEDI3, turn off SuperRes for both. Then, with a reasonably sharp source, NGU produces much sharper results. If you enable SuperRes that changes the whole situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
In terms of performance, I'm on a laptop with an OC'd R9 270x. NGU low runs substantially faster than SXBR 100 with SR2. Render time is 30 ms vs 40+ms. Image quality for the performance is astounding. It reminds me of when I first tried madvr and saw the difference between bilinear (ew, wtf) and lanczos image upscaling for the first time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The in-app performance meter says super-xbr is sharper than NGU. Is this true?
No, definitely not. The performance meter isn't updated for NGU yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unr3aL View Post
What's consensus now on which options have to be disabled in conjunction with NGU?
I think it's too early for a consensus.

NGU already contains some amount of deringing, so you may not have to use the separate deringing algorithm in "artifact removal". Also, the separate deringing algo might make life harder for NGU, so image quality might even be better in many cases with it disabled. However, there's a chance that with some sources the separate filter might do a better job at removing ringing that NGU. So I can't give a final recommendation here.

Image enhancements and most upscaling refinements are not needed with NGU, unless you have a very soft source, maybe. The new "soften edges" and "add grain" options might be useful, if you like what they do.

Settings in chroma upscaling and image downscaling are not specific to NGU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma View Post
Hope I am not offtopic spamming but I found this. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.05250v1.pdf (Real-Time Video Super-Resolution with Spatio-Temporal Networks and Motion
Compensation) Very intereting and promising.

I was wondering if any upscaler in madvr is using future or past frames for more detail or if all real time scaler have to be spatial scalers only.
I've investigated temporal super-res years ago, and from what I've read it mostly only works if the source contains aliasing and isn't too soft. Looking at typical DVDs and Blu-Rays I think the sources we're going to playback are typically too soft to benefit much from a temporal super-res algorithm. To be honest, I'm not really a big expert on this topic, this is only what I gathered from some research a couple of years ago.

I think noise or compression artifact reduction has a better chance at making good use of past/future frames than upscaling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma View Post
As for NGU I am happy, altho I was too hyped after the initial teaser expecting quality near waifu2x. It still is good for low res anime, since its output is sharp and the cartoony effect is not disturbing with little aliasing.

Only problem I see is that many low res(anime) are low quality or old encodes from dvds with blocking or other artefacts, which can exaggerate with ngu.
To be fair, waifu2x has exactly the same problems with blocking or other artifacts as NGU has - except if you switch waifu2x into a noise reduction mode. Then waifu2x produces much better results than NGU. Maybe similar results/quality could be possible with NGU, too, when doing proper noise/artifact reduction before upscaling. I don't know, but something like this not likely to come to madVR soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
2. The above recommendation applies when using NGU for luma doubling but not when using NGU solely for chroma upscaling, correct?
The "reduce ringing artifacts" option only works on the luma channel. So which algorithm you've selected in the chroma upscaling section doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
3. Should AR for upscaling and downscaling still be used in combination with NGU or should they be disabled too?
AR for upscaling and downscaling is not a separate algorithm. E.g. there's "Catmull-Rom AR". But there's no "upscaling AR". Which means that this setting has nothing to do which image doubling algorithm you're using. IMHO the "AR" options in up- and downscaling sections should always be enabled for best quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
madshi, do you think you could add a way to toggle rather than just activate a specific profile, or alternatively add a hotkey to switch back to automatic detection?
There is already a keyboard shortcut ability in the profile group settings which allows you to toggle profiles. Maybe you've missed it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Turns out SR does add bloat
You can usually trust the madshi's eyes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
(and SR's AB was removed for some reason I didn't understand IIRC)
It was removed because I couldn't see any benefit, and because nobody (including you) was able to provide any evidence to prove me wrong. SuperRes by itself usually *reduces* NNEDI3/super-xbr bloating. So the AB filter didn't really have anything (useful) to do.

It's quite possible that the SuperRes AB filter would now suddenly be useful, given that SuperRes now adds some bloating to NGU, which it never did before. But you know that I don't like activating SuperRes with NGU at all, so I'm not going to re-add SuperRes AB, if the only thing it would help is a situation that I don't recommend, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
Looking at the render times that various people have posted, maybe there is room for something in between NGU Medium and NGU High?
Definitely. I will probably do that sooner or later. But I think there are things I should do first which would bring higher benefit to users.

E.g. what I'm looking at for next weekend is another quality step below NGU Low, which is again noticeably faster. I'm not sure it will work out ok, maybe quality will be too low to be useful, we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
With regard to naming, what about NGU low -> NGU1, NGU Med -> NGU2, etc?
Might be an option. Or just "NGU" with a separate quality slider. I'm considering to change the whole upscaling/doubling settings page logic (to make things simpler), so I don't know yet what I'll end up doing.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:50   #40586  |  Link
HillieSan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagorian View Post
Set display to switch to 2160p23 (p23 for 23,976 hz).
I did. Still judder.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:58   #40587  |  Link
ashlar42
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Posting just to thank madshi for this new awesome development. I have done this in the past, but seeing his continued work and support is always something... beautiful. Beautiful is the right word.

Thank you.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 19:59   #40588  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
For those of you upscale 1080 videos to 1440, have you noticed any benefit of using NGU (then with a downscaler) vs. Jinc?
It's not worth the performance hit. If you just want Jinc to be a bit sharper, imho use SuperRes 2.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:24   #40589  |  Link
JarrettH
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Speaking of NGU - my compliments:

- Edges blend in with one another without a change in brightness (eg. light colours on dark)
- Much less grain when compared with SuperRes, which tends to bring out coarseness in the picture
- Less of a "severe" look in details/texture, more effortless. IMO a natural look can only be achieved with less complication (no upscaling refinements)
- Finer lines

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/191351

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/191355

Even Family Guy at 480p looks more like HD when upscaled (I can run NGU med on SD and NGU low on HD)

I appreciate this development, madshi

Last edited by JarrettH; 22nd November 2016 at 20:30.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:26   #40590  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It was removed because I couldn't see any benefit, and because nobody (including you) was able to provide any evidence to prove me wrong. SuperRes by itself usually *reduces* NNEDI3/super-xbr bloating. So the AB filter didn't really have anything (useful) to do.

It's quite possible that the SuperRes AB filter would now suddenly be useful, given that SuperRes now adds some bloating to NGU, which it never did before. But you know that I don't like activating SuperRes with NGU at all, so I'm not going to re-add SuperRes AB, if the only thing it would help is a situation that I don't recommend
Fair enough, I was only using SR2 LL at the time and I now realize how useful SR's AR is on ringing sources but anyway I don't like forcing all AR and AB sub-options everywhere, the same way I never liked those sxbr-AB variations for instance so SSIM 2D 100% with 50% AB seems to work beautifully

It takes a good while to find winning combos but once you've nailed them, it's a real blast.

I think it would be nice if you could add preexisting rules for SD/720p/1080p/1080p60 and so on, this would make it a lot more convenient than having to figure out stuff like if (srcHeight = 1080) and (Fps > 51) "1080p60" but I'll do my homework as I now need to create a whole bunch of extra rules.

I will also need to make a rule to always force FRC except for 60p, I wish there was a "if the refresh rate is identical to the movie frame rate" but fair enough, I'll figure out a rule too as I want FRC for 30p.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:30   #40591  |  Link
kasper93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
It's not worth the performance hit. If you just want Jinc to be a bit sharper, imho use SuperRes 2.
I guess it is personal preference. I like the sharp look of NGU and I find it very good for 1080->1440 upscaling. Especially for high quality source where any sharpness lost is noticeable. Tho it depends on your hardware and eyes in the end.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:37   #40592  |  Link
HillieSan
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I will also need to make a rule to always force FRC except for 60p, I wish there was a "if the refresh rate is identical to the movie frame rate" but fair enough, I'll figure out a rule too as I want FRC for 30p.
If I set the display to 23 or 24 fps for a 24 fps movie then I still get judder. Same problem with 59 and 60 fps. Only bluesky fps solves this. Any idea what the problem can be?
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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:52   #40593  |  Link
CarlosCaco
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NGU is great! Thanks Madshi it's a great addition...
i m o latest madVR version but can t adjust soften edges and add grain in small steps... only 1 or 2 or 3... in the latest version this not suppose to happen or not?
Other question... the use sigmoidal light option apples to the doubling algorithms too? Or only to the Upscale algorithms... in case of yes... what did you recommend for NGU?


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Old 22nd November 2016, 20:57   #40594  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
There is already a keyboard shortcut ability in the profile group settings which allows you to toggle profiles. Maybe you've missed it?
Ah, I misunderstood how that works - I figured it would toggle through all the profiles one at a time, but it just switches between manual and automatic. Thanks, this works!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 21:04   #40595  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
I guess it is personal preference. I like the sharp look of NGU and I find it very good for 1080->1440 upscaling. Especially for high quality source where any sharpness lost is noticeable. Tho it depends on your hardware and eyes in the end.
I like it too, but imho there is hardly any difference to Jinc + SR, except that NGU is slightly more natural. Not to speak of the performance requirements, A GTX 1080 OC likely won't be enough for NGU low + SSIM 1D with 1080p 60fps. My 1070 can't even downscale it with bicubic then when doing also chroma NGU low scaling.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 21:43   #40596  |  Link
Kotik
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Hello,

Either I am doing something totally wrong or things are not supposed to work the way I expect them to.

I ripped countless of times my Avatar 3D BluRay disc with latest MakeMKV v1.10.2 and yet the 3D subtitles are not working properly, for that matter they are not working properly even when I directly play the movie from my disc.

The 3D effects of the movie most of the time cut through the subtitles, and it doesn't matter which subtitle language I am using.

I am using latest madVR build + latest LAV, I tried with both xySubFilter and with MPC-HC internal subtitle engine.

I remember a couple of months ago madshi mentioned that 3D subtitles are supposed to work with xySubFilter.

FYI I got a passive 3D TV and madVR 3D setting set to auto, the movies themselves do work fine it is just the subtitles in both the bluray disc and the .mkv rip are not really working properly.

So am I the only one with this issue? am I doing something wrong? or 3D subtitles were never meant to work with madVR + LAV?

Thanx in advance.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 21:47   #40597  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I like it too, but imho there is hardly any difference to Jinc + SR, except that NGU is slightly more natural. Not to speak of the performance requirements, A GTX 1080 OC likely won't be enough for NGU low + SSIM 1D with 1080p 60fps. My 1070 can't even downscale it with bicubic then when doing also chroma NGU low scaling.
I don't know about the SSIM 1D part, but as far as upscaling to UltraHD goes my laptop's GTX 1060 3G is currently using NGO low luma doubling for 1080p60 -> 2160p60 (chroma doubling turned off, using 3-tap lanczos instead). I bet a GTX 1080 could squeeze in the downscale too. I did have to turn off the anti-ringing pre-processing, but that seems to be recommended anyway with NGU.

Edit: Catmull or Catmull AR might be a better choice of upscaler, I dunno. Lanczos 3 + AR is a bit too much for that particular profile though.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 22nd November 2016 at 21:56.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 21:49   #40598  |  Link
seiyafan
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For those of you who use NGU for 1080 -> 1440, which downscaler do you prefer?
And for those Jinc + SR2 users, do you also turn on "scale in sigmoidal light" for Jinc? Also under SR options, do you also enable both LL and AR?
Thx!

Last edited by seiyafan; 22nd November 2016 at 21:53.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 22:09   #40599  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
For those of you who use NGU for 1080 -> 1440, which downscaler do you prefer?
And for those Jinc + SR2 users, do you also turn on "scale in sigmoidal light" for Jinc? Also under SR options, do you also enable both LL and AR?
Thx!
I like bicubic 150 and ssim. I tried to notice a difference between SSIM 2D 100 and bicubic for downscaling to above the source resolution but I cannot so I use bicubic 150.

I do use sigmoidal light for Jinc upscaling but most of the time upscaling is never used (The Titan XP has enough GPU power for NGU low chroma doubling with NGU high luma doubling).

I don't use SR anymore but I used to use AR but not LL.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 22:38   #40600  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
For those of you who use NGU for 1080 -> 1440, which downscaler do you prefer?
The difference for downscaling 4k to 1440p between SSIM & bicubic 150 is usually totally neglectable and doesn't justify the higher GPU costs imho.
It's more important to use anti-ringing filter (relaxed is enough imho).

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
And for those Jinc + SR2 users, do you also turn on "scale in sigmoidal light" for Jinc? Also under SR options, do you also enable both LL and AR?
Thx!
Sigmoidal light has less aliasing but more ringing, however ringing isn't any problem with AR filter for 1080p -> 1440p.
Anti-ringing option of SuperRes is pure placebo and LL is not much of a difference, but leaving it unticked should be more correct in most cases.
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