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Old 20th November 2016, 04:09   #40341  |  Link
strumf666
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Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post
It seems r9 270 has an uvd powerstate for playing video; and OCing doesn't affect it...
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
give software decoding a try.
Help with the clocks, I can reach the max clocks now, but overall the playback is worse, less smooth, more dropped frames when ques drop. Ah well, time to decide to either start watching movies on my gaming rig or be content with super-xbr+SR.
Thanks for the idea, anyhow.

Last edited by strumf666; 20th November 2016 at 04:12.
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Old 20th November 2016, 07:53   #40342  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Why? 10bit output is an option you can choose yourself. You should know if you have it enabled or not, shouldn't you?
Actually, I wanted to use D3D11 Presentation for 10 bit displays and D3D9 Presentation for 8 bit displays. If you provide “10 bit” variable (or “Output Bit Depth” variable), I can easily create the desired profile rules.


Regarding NGU:

NGU Image Doubling looks very impressive. It’s commendable that you have worked on it entirely.

As others pointed out, there is a dirty look with the “add grain” option. I believe the grains should be dynamic (changing with every frame).

I haven’t had any performance issues or keyboard shortcuts not working problem with the 0.91.0 build on my system with AMD HD8970M card. However, I do notice the loud coil whine with NGU.

Regarding the “feedback”, I think NNEDI3 should stay. I don’t care about SuperRes doubling and NEDI when NGU and NNEDI3 are available.

Last edited by omarank; 20th November 2016 at 08:07.
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Old 20th November 2016, 08:42   #40343  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.91.0 released

5) A word about "ideal upscaling": When trying to upscale a low-res image, it's possible to get the edges very sharp and very near to the "groundtruth" (the original high-res image the low-res image was created from). However, texture detail which is lost during downscaling cannot properly be restored. This can lead to "cartoon" type images when upscaling by large factors with full sharpness, because the edges will be very sharp, but there's no texture detail.
http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~yoavhacohen/upsampling/
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Old 20th November 2016, 09:00   #40344  |  Link
leeperry
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And it's not my imagination as I double-checked, skipping with NGU in PotP is just as fast as with Jinc....NNEDI3 & sxbr are a lot more sluggish, A/B'ing them against NGU is also laughable, please don't ditch any SR coz I really like them both in combination with NGU and "soften edges"@1. I don't see much point in the new "add grain" static noise option and the older "enhance detail" anymore though.

And so far I still prefer RS soft for chroma with SR@2.

Last edited by leeperry; 20th November 2016 at 09:12.
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Old 20th November 2016, 09:01   #40345  |  Link
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That method looks odd:

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Our approach extends and refines the patch-based image model of Freeman et al. [10] and interprets the image as a tiling of distinct textures, each of which is matched to an example in a database of relevant textures. The matching is not done at the patch level, but rather collectively, over entire segments. Following this model fitting stage, which requires some user guidance, a higher-resolution image is synthesized using a hybrid approach that incorporates principles from examplebased texture synthesis. We show that for images that comply with our model, our method is able to reintroduce consistent fine-scale detail, resulting in enhanced appearance textured regions.
It is a neat idea but I am not sure attempting to match a low resolution texture to a database of similar high resolution textures and using that texture information to assist upscaling is a good method, their "Our Result" images look very weird.

Maybe a very advanced version could look OK, but unassisted and in real time on video playback is probably a ways off.
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Old 20th November 2016, 09:20   #40346  |  Link
Georgel
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Tested this a little more in depth, and it's true.

It seems that NGU does produce considerably more coil whine.

Most other madVR settings produce no coil whine at all, so it makes me curious why NGU does this..
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Old 20th November 2016, 09:30   #40347  |  Link
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3D subtitles

Hi! Is it somehow possible to manually specify depth of subtitles when playing 3D? I mean external SRT subtitles which does not provide the depth information. Thank you.
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:13   #40348  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
OSD no workee though
Are you sure that NGU is activated, then? If the OSD doesn't work, probably NGU isn't activated, either (!). You're probably getting super-xbr doubling. It's a known problem, and I'm working on it.

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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
The add Grain (static) option looks very nice @ PQ with crappy Sources (blocking, artefakts, dnr'd or destroyed grain by low Bitrates).
But changing Grain with every frame is much better in Motion Scene (Dirty Screen effect) !
Any Chance for dynamic option, too ?
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the new add grain feature in "upscaling refinement" looks very stationary. in scenes with a moving camera it looks like as if there were a dusty glass panel on top of the screen instead of the grain being a part of the film material.
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I also noticed that the "add grain" feature is too much stationary at the point that is distracting, the idea behind it is good though (even if I'm not a super fan of grain but the implementation must be revised IMHO).
You guys are right, of course. The grain was supposed to move its position from frame to frame. Looks like a bug. I'll fix it for the next official build.

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is your algo similar to this one http://avisynth.nl/index.php/AddGrainC?
I don't know.

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I also noticed that the feature "enhance details" seems to be executed after adding the grain which enhances it. the grain should probably come last.
You have a good point there. But I wonder if "enhance details" after doubling is really effective? I think if I do "enhance details" first it's better, but I guess any effect will probably just vanish in the grain added for NGU?

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Originally Posted by Mistery 73 View Post
I apologize I know you have already answered that question 1,000 times on the win 10 problem .. but I can not come out of the problem does not fire me NGU nowhere I also ran the madashi guide posted here on the forum .. thanks
You mean NGU doesn't get used for you? It's a known problem, I'm working on it.

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Originally Posted by Stacey Spears View Post
Can you provide some examples of content that shows where you like Samsung over NGU? Or frankly, any content to test up-scaling.
Hi there, always an honor to see you here!

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Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
Proof that your PS 3.0 implementation performs equal or better sorry madshi but that's pretty unbelievable that you even come close to it in all test cases.

And the most insane thing i ever read from you.

I would even go as far and say you don't beat Samsung SAIT R&D in anyway (Super Resolution that's used in every SUHDTV) with that PS 3 shader.
Why are you being so negative/aggressive?

Anyway. Google's RAISR was mentioned in my thread, so I posted my subjective impression. FYI, Shiandow posted a similar impression in the MPDN thread. It's hard to proof anything because as far as I can see, there's no way for me to actually test RAISR. All I can look at is the PDF. They haven't even made the images they used in the PDF available as BMP/PNG files, so we also can't run them through NGU to compare (except those that are well known like the butterfly, see below).

However, I think I have some "weak proof" that I can post:

If you look at page 21 of the Google RAISR PDF, you can clearly see that RAISR has noticeably worse PSNR & SSIM results than SRCNN. And IMHO anything that can't beat SRCNN is kind of underwhelming for a new algorithm. SRCNN was state of the art when it was released but that was a couple of years ago.

Have a look at these two images, with the butterfly also used in the RAISR PDF:

butterfly SRCNN (PSNR: 32.181)
butterfly NGU (PSNR: 33.689)

Please zoom into these images with your favorite image viewer to see how much better NGU is than SRCNN. And Google RAISR is worse than SRCNN, according to their own PDF!!

Of course it's possible that RAISR could be dramatically faster than NGU, I can't say for sure. But in terms of quality, NGU should be noticeably better than RAISR.

(I should add that I used a custom NGU version which was optimized for best PSNR/SSIM results. I believe all the scientific papers do that. The NGU version used in madVR is tweaked for being as artifact free as possible, which lowers PSNR/SSIM scores but produces much cleaner results. But the NGU version in madVR still beats SRCNN PSNR/SSIM numbers by a noticeable margin.)

Just to be safe: Have you checked the madVR OSD to see if NGU is even being activated in your case? It's a known problem with the current madVR version that on some PCs NGU doesn't activate. In that case super-xbr is used instead. You can verify that by activating NGU for image doubling (not for chroma upscaling!!) and then checking the OSD if it's listed there. Since you don't seem to like what you've seen so far, I can only guess that you're one of those for whom NGU doesn't even activate atm?

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Originally Posted by Maro3ko View Post
Hi! Is it somehow possible to manually specify depth of subtitles when playing 3D? I mean external SRT subtitles which does not provide the depth information. Thank you.
It's not possible atm, I think. I'm not even sure which playback component would be the best to offer such a setting (e.g. subtitle renderer, or subtitle splitter, or madVR, or media player, or movie file splitter etc).
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:17   #40349  |  Link
leeperry
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Are you sure that NGU is activated, then? If the OSD doesn't work, probably NGU isn't activated, either (!). You're probably getting super-xbr doubling. It's a known problem, and I'm working on it.
I've spent a long while comparing them and NGU definitely works as it looks way better for 720p@1080p than Jinc/sxbr/NNEDI3. Cranking it from medium to high also drops frames when using SSIM 2D downscaling, so yes I'd say it works.

Another proof is that "edges soften" and "add noise" also work, PQ is quite amazing on 720p@1080p in combination with RS chroma
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:20   #40350  |  Link
madshi
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Regarding the “feedback”, I think NNEDI3 should stay. I don’t care about SuperRes doubling and NEDI when NGU and NNEDI3 are available.
So you'd like NNEDI3 to stay, but SuperRes and NEDI can go?

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Yeah, I've seen 2 or 3 papers like that. But to be honest, while some images look impressive, there's always something ugly in those images, as well. And if these algos fail, they fail spectecularely. I prefer adding random grain over trying to "guess" actual texture detail, because if the guessing goes wrong, we could create some sort of ghost/horror movie instead of upscaling the source video.

Just my 2 cents, of course.
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:21   #40351  |  Link
madshi
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I've spent a long while comparing them and NGU definitely works as it looks way better for 720p@1080p than Jinc/sxbr/NNEDI3. Cranking it from medium to high also drops frames when using SSIM 2D downscaling, so yes I'd say it works.

Another proof is that "edges soften" and "add noise" also work, PQ is quite amazing on 720p@1080p in combination with RS chroma
Ok, then I'm confused why the OSD doesn't seem to work for you, though! That's really weird...

So what's your opinion on which algos need to stay and which can go (NNEDI3, SuperRes, super-xbr, NEDI)?
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:21   #40352  |  Link
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Tested this a little more in depth, and it's true.

It seems that NGU does produce considerably more coil whine.

Most other madVR settings produce no coil whine at all, so it makes me curious why NGU does this..
You mean coil whine as in sound i guess it can leverage more energy and transfer that into Performance as it's a simple PS 3 which ultimately means your ALUs get more stressed and so the PCB components get under more pressure result is you hear your Cards component Vibrations.

The other methods wont produce that low Render Frametimes at all continuously and not stress the Hardware as much even if they utilize it fully.

You will hear more GPU ALU Stress these days very fast because everything is Physically on the Edge and under additional Economic Value constraints.

Sometimes you can use that even better to measure your code efficiency just listen to what you System does can be more efficient then any Software Performance analysis

Because the reaction time through the RTOS is super fast these days that does the Power Management and Frequency Switching bellow the OS.
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:33   #40353  |  Link
leeperry
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what's your opinion on which algos need to stay and which can go (NNEDI3, SuperRes, super-xbr, NEDI)?
I only need NGU & SR I think but as much as you've been polishing it for weeks we've only had a hand at it for a day so please give us some time before taking irrevocable decisions.

For GPU-hogging 1440x1080p60 footage I will prolly need to fall back to sxbr, whatever you decide to ditch please don't remove any SR coz I really like what they both do on motion-blur

Maybe a "soften edges" sub-option would be good for chroma NGU? RS chroma is tough competition you know.
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:38   #40354  |  Link
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Are you using NGU + SR? Please try NGU without SR, that actually looks better IMHO. SR kind of reintroduces a little bit of bloating into the image, IMHO.

With RS you mean "recon-soft"? Yeah, I like that one, too. It's my custom tweaked version of feisty2's original VapourSynth chroma reconstruction script. I do hope to replace it with a luma guided NGU version at some point in the future, though.
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:47   #40355  |  Link
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I can confirm pretty nasty coil whine with NGU on a Gigabyte G1 1070 + HX750i PSU

Maybe it has something to do with the memory controller being used so much more? In my case, for 720 to 1440 doubling it has 40% load with NGU med chroma and high luma compared to 10% to low teens for NNEDI3 64 luma 16 chroma
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:52   #40356  |  Link
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There's really nothing I can do about the coil whine. Other than maybe adding an option in the future to use lower GPU clocks for madVR or something? Don't know if that even makes sense...
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Old 20th November 2016, 10:59   #40357  |  Link
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There's really nothing I can do about the coil whine. Other than maybe adding an option in the future to use lower GPU clocks for madVR or something? Don't know if that even makes sense...
Is there any way to lower the memory impact, at least enough for experimentation? I agree it shouldn't be a factor, but despite how good NGU looks, I can't justify using it daily or even extensively testing for that matter because the whine is the loudest part of my computer and it's incredibly bothersome. And this 10 series and even the last 9 series are more susceptible than previous series, and with these newer ones being some of the only ones that can run it comfortably, we're kind of in a catch 22.
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Old 20th November 2016, 11:02   #40358  |  Link
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Welcome to the rise of the Consoles

First of all you could try to reduce the Pre OC stress from your card Gigabyte should have a application you can also define these modes easily with AIBs call these modes mostly Silent,Game and OC

Switching to Silent Mode should lower the stress

@madshi
that's not really your job @all also because the characteristics are so different you couldn't ensure it anyways to be perfect for everyone with a simple option to chose from
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Old 20th November 2016, 11:18   #40359  |  Link
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The only way to lower the memory impact would be to use DirectCompute or OpenCL, and NGU doesn't really need that because NGU is mostly arithmetic limited and not memory limited, I think. Going DirectCompute or OpenCL would make everything much more complicated, once more, and open the door to all kinds of driver issues etc. And since NGU doesn't seem to be memory limited, it probably wouldn't actually improve performance in any noticeable way, either.

There are custom GPUs from different manufacturers. Aren't there any without coil whine?

Try lowering the GPU clocks or voltages by using some tweak tool, maybe that helps?
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Old 20th November 2016, 11:30   #40360  |  Link
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So you'd like NNEDI3 to stay, but SuperRes and NEDI can go?
That's right.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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