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Old 12th May 2016, 17:53   #37921  |  Link
omarank
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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Maybe, but the only processing it has to do is a table lookup, so I doubt it matters at all for performance..
Itís not about performance. Itís about GPU driver doing some processing on madVR rendered frames, even if it is a simple LUT processing. So if it is actually true that in the default OS state the LUT processing is bypassed, I would prefer keeping my system in that state. But we donít knowÖ

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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Check if "Use Windows display calibration" is enabled (Windows Color Management settings -> "Advanced" tab), it has the same problem as the CalibrationTester (which is pretty embarrassing for MS to be honest, you would think that they would know their own APIs better...).
That option is disabled by default, and I also confirmed that none of the systems had that option enabled.

I agree, MS has really made a mess here.
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Old 12th May 2016, 18:38   #37922  |  Link
omarank
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I just came across this link about bypassing the LUT for 10 bit output from AMD GPU on Linux. Below is a quote from there:

“The hardware lut's only have 256 slots for indexing by a 8 bpc framebuffer. In 10 bpc scanout modes, framebuffer color values would get truncated to their 8 msb's, thereby losing the extra precision afforded by a 10 bpc framebuffer.
To retain full precision, bypass the hw lut in 10 bpc scanout mode.”


I do use 10 bit output in madVR on my AMD system, and reading this made me shiver.

Last edited by omarank; 12th May 2016 at 18:52.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:01   #37923  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
“The hardware lut's only have 256 slots for indexing by a 8 bpc framebuffer. In 10 bpc scanout modes, framebuffer color values would get truncated to their 8 msb's, thereby losing the extra precision afforded by a 10 bpc framebuffer.
To retain full precision, bypass the hw lut in 10 bpc scanout mode.”


I do use 10 bit output in madVR on my AMD system, and reading this made me shiver.
If that's true it sucks; they should be linearly interpolating between values when the bit depth is higher than the number of entries in the LUT. Still, if they have to bypass it altogether, then it doesn't matter what values are in the LUT - and filling the LUT from 0 to 65535 is still more correct than only setting the 8 high bits of each entry.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:16   #37924  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by mogli View Post
Why is that? Because image doubling is happening in gamma light, too?
Image doubling is happening in gamma light but the reasoning I use is less precise/mathematical.

I like linear light downscaling because it preserves small bright details, like stars in a night sky, much better. After doubling all these small bright details are twice as big so linear light downscaling does not preserve their appearance any better but it does have more ringing and aliasing.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:19   #37925  |  Link
BluesFanUK
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Slightly off topic (and perhaps me being a bit thick) - Anyone use a 1440p monitor here?

I had a 4K monitor at the backend of 2015 (27" Acer S277HK), but the grainy/hazy screen did my head in, and quite frankly I couldn't even see much difference when a high quality 1080 vid was played next to a high quality 4K vid, so I passed it on.

I have read 1440 is a bad screen size for watching films/tv shows/streaming as it doesn't have a 1:1 scale like 4K would from 1080, only that it benefits games. Have a 980ti so I have the graphical grunt for MadVR but just wondering whether it's worth moving up screen size from a 23" 1080p monitor to a 25"/27" 1440p one. I'm presuming there are no adverse affect with MadVR too (besides being able to use less settings at the higher res)?
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:30   #37926  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by BluesFanUK View Post
Slightly off topic (and perhaps me being a bit thick) - Anyone use a 1440p monitor here?

I had a 4K monitor at the backend of 2015 (27" Acer S277HK), but the grainy/hazy screen did my head in, and quite frankly I couldn't even see much difference when a high quality 1080 vid was played next to a high quality 4K vid, so I passed it on.

I have read 1440 is a bad screen size for watching films/tv shows/streaming as it doesn't have a 1:1 scale like 4K would from 1080, only that it benefits games. Have a 980ti so I have the graphical grunt for MadVR but just wondering whether it's worth moving up screen size from a 23" 1080p monitor to a 25"/27" 1440p one. I'm presuming there are no adverse affect with MadVR too (besides being able to use less settings at the higher res)?
I happen to have a 1440p monitor (Acer XB270HU bprz) and a 980Ti.
Using madVR to watch 1080p on a 27" 1440p monitor is excellent. Image quality is better than 1080p on a 27" 1080p monitor because at 1080p the pixels are too visible and madVR's upscaling is very good.

A 980Ti has enough power to run quite high settings even when upscaling to 1080p to 1440. (e.g. NNEDI3 64 luma doubling is easy)
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Last edited by Asmodian; 12th May 2016 at 19:33.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:21   #37927  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Thanks!

I do not watch any anime, so I assume enabling both - 1. the new De-Ringing + 2. Reducing Dark Halo's improves image quality in films.

What causes that ringing to begin-with? Does it affect specific Scaling Algorithm methods, like NNEDI3, Jinc, etc. ? Before this new De-Ringing, there already were Anti-Ringing features. Did these original features fail at removing ringing and dark halos?
Like madshi said, it's a problem when studios use certain scalers or sharpeners to resize a master down to the DVD or blu ray. He says that it's not from compression, but I find it sometimes helps with light ringing from compression (h264 is like jpeg. Everything gets turned into a lossy Fourier function which inherently introduces ringing)

You could probably try removing dark haloing for anime if your sources are high enough resolution. I feel like the halo detection is per pixel, which means that any dark lines won't get confused as long as they're sufficiently thick in pixel count. I tried it for clean 720p cartoon encodes, and it doesn't do any damage at the very least (or benefit much either, because they're so clean to start with)
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Old 12th May 2016, 23:09   #37928  |  Link
leeperry
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BTW, is there any easy way to play retail encrypted .m2ts files with mVR & Reclock? Can't really waste 40GB per movie remuxing them.

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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post


OMG, is this for real? The difference is unbelievable!

All the details still intact, while it only removes the ringing COMPLETELY.

Wow, I am speechless. This one feature alone is probably the best proof that madVR is so much better than anything else out in the market for video playback rendering by far.

Great work madshi!
Couldn't have said it better,

1080p with ringing is a total waste when you can get such natural looking deringing in realtime, who needs 4K no more

Turns out it seems to work stunningly well with SuperRes LL@2 + AB@100 so please don't remove AB from SR anytime soon, still playing around but I certainly like what I see in combination with vanilla 100% LL SSIM2D & vanilla sxbr(whose main problem was amplifying existing ringing as I understand it).

Outrageous results really, hats off
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Old 12th May 2016, 23:35   #37929  |  Link
Warner306
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What percentage of video content includes source ringing? Is this more or less common than banding with 8-bit sources?
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Old 12th May 2016, 23:36   #37930  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
BTW, is there any easy way to play retail encrypted .m2ts files with mVR & Reclock? Can't really waste 40GB per movie remuxing them.



Couldn't have said it better,

1080p with ringing is a total waste when you can get such natural looking deringing in realtime, who needs 4K no more

Turns out it seems to work stunningly well with SuperRes LL@2 + AB@100 so please don't remove AB from SR anytime soon, still playing around but I certainly like what I see in combination with vanilla 100% LL SSIM2D & vanilla sxbr(whose main problem was amplifying existing ringing as I understand it).

Outrageous results really, hats off
Anti-bloating tends to cancel out legitimate sharpening when used with SuperRes; at least, that's been my finding. It only bloats when combined with another sharpener such as crispen edges.
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Old 13th May 2016, 01:27   #37931  |  Link
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Hey madshi the new options on madvr are amazing...
I know we already talk about this but in would like to ask you to rethink about and if its possible implement on madvr
The resolution of my tv is 1366x768 (Windows says that native is 1360x768 but in tv datasheets says 1366x768, i use the two resolutions depending on the movie fps)
That implies aways upscaling or downscaling the movies
I almost watch 720p content and on this movie resolution madvr don't allow me to use upscaling refinements only image refinements because is small scaling factor near the movies native resolution
I like to use some sharpen because its not a big screen and the sharpen plus enhance details give me for depht
But seens that using some of the sharpen algos and upscaling after produces a little distortion on image, more bloated, and ant bloating filter poduces some extra blur and great loss of depht
I really like sharpen edge but seens that to get more depht with ab before scaling i have to use bigger strenghts but ant bloat sometimes produces some strange distortions and much blur when use before scalling
Adaptive sharpen plus ab is great but is unusable in this scenario because using both give me more distortion and dont reduces the oil paint apparence../
In some past version (can t remember the version that this has changed) madvr allowed to use upscalling refinements on such smallers scaling factors even 1919 to 1920 on my other laptop that is full hd and the effect was pretty good much less artificial... And for last this limitation don t let me use super resolution wich produces good natural sharpen results even with this small scalling factor... Same for supersampling that don t allow using upscalling refinements with this resolution, but in the past if i checked aways when upscaling is required the refinements were used... I don t really have much interest in supersampling but really want to use upscaling refinements when scaling 720 to 768 especialy the antibloat
Im on my phone now but this weekend i can make some screenshots examples of
Ant bloat loss of quality if used pre resizing, i made some tests scaling on avysinth... To see the effect after scalling...
Can you allow use upscalling refinements to smal scaling factors?
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Last edited by CarlosCaco; 13th May 2016 at 13:06.
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Old 13th May 2016, 01:46   #37932  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Like madshi said, it's a problem when studios use certain scalers or sharpeners to resize a master down to the DVD or blu ray. He says that it's not from compression, but I find it sometimes helps with light ringing from compression (h264 is like jpeg. Everything gets turned into a lossy Fourier function which inherently introduces ringing)

You could probably try removing dark haloing for anime if your sources are high enough resolution. I feel like the halo detection is per pixel, which means that any dark lines won't get confused as long as they're sufficiently thick in pixel count. I tried it for clean 720p cartoon encodes, and it doesn't do any damage at the very least (or benefit much either, because they're so clean to start with)
Thanks. Madshi posted comparison picture and the one for Dark Halo Removal was VERY blurry. When combined with the De-Ringer, does Dark Halo Removal make the image blurrier too?
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Old 13th May 2016, 06:21   #37933  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Anti-bloating tends to cancel out legitimate sharpening when used with SuperRes; at least, that's been my finding. It only bloats when combined with another sharpener such as crispen edges.
Do you mean the AB tick box of SuperRes specifically - or any AB (downscaling, doubling, enhancements) used simultaneously with SuperRes?
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Old 13th May 2016, 12:45   #37934  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.90.18 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added new deringing algorithm
* added dering key shortcut and file name tag ("dering(ing)=on/off/half/full")
* fixed: upscaling refinement wasn't always active when doing supersampling
* fixed: Jinc upscaling was replaced by Lanczos3 when upscaling in only X or Y
* fixed: some graphical corruption when combining NNEDI3 + SSIM2D + Anti-Bloat
* fixed: image was too bright with linear light down- and sigmoidal upscaling
* fixed: sometimes HDR SMPTE 2086 metadata got lost
Here are a few image comparisons that show how my new deringing algorithm compares to AviSynth's "DeHalo_alpha" (default settings) deringing script:

clown:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

some anime:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

light house:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

some movie:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR
Your dering algorithm is very promising, it derings very well when maintaining details. It's way above DeHalo and other deringing filters I've seen so far. But sometimes it adds some artefacts as you can see here :

http://postimg.org/image/efe86s6f5/full/

Also note that the color of the door is slighlty different and the lines on the bottom of the wall just next to the door are narrower.

Here I found it too agressive on 2 spots :

http://postimg.org/image/durdyqd8h/

Could you improve a little bit the situation? Personnaly, I would prefer to have a lower deringing strength with fewer artefacts and better details preservation.
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Old 13th May 2016, 15:25   #37935  |  Link
iSunrise
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
What percentage of video content includes source ringing? Is this more or less common than banding with 8-bit sources?
Ringing is very common when the source master is of lower resolution than the target resolution (especially old DVD masters, less common on newer DVDs or Blu-Rays, since the studios went back again to do at least a 2K scan of the negatives) and the studios upscaled and sharpened the picture to much.

It's not limited to only film content, but also animes or live action performances.

Last edited by iSunrise; 13th May 2016 at 15:28.
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Old 13th May 2016, 16:05   #37936  |  Link
cremor
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Did anyone else notice that image doubling seems to sometimes activate in v0.90.18 when it shouldn't?
When I play a movie in windowed mode (scale 0,0,1920,1080 -> 138,0,1782,925) madVR performs image doubling and image downscaling (image > suber-xbr < SSim2D100 AR) although only downscaling is needed. But it seems like it only does this if the target resolution is a little bit smaller than the source resultion. Other target resolutions (including 50%, 100% and 200%) work as expected.
My image doubling setting is "only if scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)".

Downgrading to v0.90.17 - without changing any setting - fixes the problem.

Last edited by cremor; 13th May 2016 at 16:07.
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Old 13th May 2016, 16:09   #37937  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by cremor View Post
Did anyone else notice that image doubling seems to sometimes activate in v0.90.18 when it shouldn't?
When I play a movie in windowed mode (scale 0,0,1920,1080 -> 138,0,1782,925) madVR performs image doubling and image downscaling (image > suber-xbr < SSim2D100 AR) although only downscaling is needed. But it seems like it only does this if the target resolution is a little bit smaller than the source resultion. Other target resolutions (including 50%, 100% and 200%) work as expected.
My image doubling setting is "only if scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)".

Downgrading to v0.90.17 - without changing any setting - fixes the problem.
known issue.
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Old 13th May 2016, 18:00   #37938  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Do you mean the AB tick box of SuperRes specifically - or any AB (downscaling, doubling, enhancements) used simultaneously with SuperRes?
Yes, I don't think SuperRes needs its own anti-bloating. It doesn't fatten the image as much.
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Old 14th May 2016, 00:59   #37939  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Ringing is very common when the source master is of lower resolution than the target resolution (especially old DVD masters, less common on newer DVDs or Blu-Rays, since the studios went back again to do at least a 2K scan of the negatives) and the studios upscaled and sharpened the picture to much.

It's not limited to only film content, but also animes or live action performances.
Does anti-ringing do anything for compression artifacts:

"The signal is bandwidth-limited, discarding too much information for high frequencies."
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Old 14th May 2016, 02:29   #37940  |  Link
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Apologies.

Last edited by Farfie; 14th May 2016 at 12:43. Reason: Known issue
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