Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th November 2015, 15:32   #34221  |  Link
Murmeltier
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 5
I have a Samsung S24D390HL display which has a AD-PSL. The panel is not able to support 8-bit colors natively. It does 6-bit + FRC from what I read.

What am I supposed to choose under "Device->*->Properties->The native display bitdepth is? 6-bit I guess? If this is the case. Isn't there a conflict between madVR's dithering (which obviously is better) and that FRC dithering the monitor does automatically? I also guess I'm not able to deactivate the latter?
Murmeltier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 15:34   #34222  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murmeltier View Post
I have a Samsung S24D390HL display which has a AD-PSL. The panel is not able to support 8-bit colors natively. It does 6-bit + FRC from what I read.

What am I supposed to choose under "Device->*->Properties->The native display bitdepth is? 6-bit I guess? If this is the case. Isn't there a conflict between madVR's dithering (which obviously is better) and that FRC dithering the monitor does automatically? I also guess I'm not able to deactivate the latter?
Pick whatever looks better to you. It depends on the quality of the dithering algorithm in the screen, really.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 19:08   #34223  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Akron, OH in the U.S.A.
Posts: 427
I have an HP Stream 7 tablet that I very seldom use. This weekend, though, I'll be watching a couple of movies on it. The processor is an Atom Z3775G quad-core, and the unit runs 32-bit Win 8.1. I can run MPC-HC using QuickSync for decoding, and madVR works at the default settings (looks pretty good, too). Being a tweaker, though, I won't be satisfied until I see how far I can push this chip.

Assuming I can only make a few settings changes in madVR until I start dropping frames, what changes are likely to give me the most improvement with the least cost? The screen is 1280 x 800 and the movies I'll be watching are SD. Doubling is probably out of the question, so what else should I try to tweak?
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 20:23   #34224  |  Link
mogli
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 68
With some old interlaced DVDs I now have some repeated frames (no drops) while using smooth motion since madVR recently introduced automatic switching to DXVA scaling for both chroma and luma when deinterlacing. Does this mean it's a NVIDIA driver bug or still a madVR one?
mogli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 21:16   #34225  |  Link
har3inger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
I have an HP Stream 7 tablet that I very seldom use. This weekend, though, I'll be watching a couple of movies on it. The processor is an Atom Z3775G quad-core, and the unit runs 32-bit Win 8.1. I can run MPC-HC using QuickSync for decoding, and madVR works at the default settings (looks pretty good, too). Being a tweaker, though, I won't be satisfied until I see how far I can push this chip.

Assuming I can only make a few settings changes in madVR until I start dropping frames, what changes are likely to give me the most improvement with the least cost? The screen is 1280 x 800 and the movies I'll be watching are SD. Doubling is probably out of the question, so what else should I try to tweak?
I think DXVA2 is better than quicksync. Use that instead.

Smooth motion is really good, and is probably going to give you the biggest boost if your monitor doesn't support 24fps. The jump from SD->1280x800 isn't too big, so jinc AR for luma is probably sufficient and not too different from what doubling would produce. I don't think you can run SuperRes, but if you can, that's the next thing to try turning on. Use bicubic75 AR or jinc3 AR for chroma if you can afford it.

Checking on 10 bit image/chroma buffer in trade performance for quality is unlikely to result in any visible difference. Those would be worth using for you as well. Disable linear light for dithering is also fine, but I'd leave linear light on for smooth motion because it makes a big difference there.

Ordered dithering is great, and you should use it since it's better than all the alternatives for you.

Debanding can help immensely for sources with banding (obviously), but can cost a bit. Depends if you think your videos need it.
har3inger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 22:21   #34226  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
Your wish is my command: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/150162

All pictures as a .zip file, using .13 with sxbr25+GL SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66), no other refinement was checked and I didn't try LL. Dithering was disabled.
The cleaner edges provide smoother motion, kinda dreaming of 4X SR now tbh and SuperSampling too while we're at it

New GPU's will be out soon and I'd happily use them for outrageous SS SR.

Last edited by leeperry; 11th November 2015 at 22:47.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 23:06   #34227  |  Link
mcn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 11
Hi all,

I'm experiencing a strange v-sync issue with madVR.

In a two monitors setup if I have one or more applications open that use madVR after a random amount of time I start experiencing loss of v-sync in other applications.
To restore v-sync I have to minimize or close all the instances of the applications that use madVR.
Then, if I reopen some application that use madVR, after some time it happens again.

I clearly experience image tearing with applications like VMware Workstation, Outlook 2010 and VLC.
Strangely applications that use madVR aren't affected.

Below more details.

OS
The most important thing that I observed is that this started to happen just after upgrading a few weeks ago from Windows 8 N to Windows 8.1 N, both x64.
On Windows 8 I had installed the Media Feature Pack but on Windows 8.1 I hoped to do without it so it isn't installed.

GPU
I have a GTX 680.
I currently am on driver 358.50, but I tried various previous versions with no luck.
I changed some settings in the Nvidia control panel but this didn't help either.

Monitors
Initially I had one monitor connected via DisplayPort and the other via DVI (digital dual link).
Now they are both on DVI but it doesn't help.

Both monitors are 1920x1200 @ 60 Hz.
Nvidia control panel shows 60 Hz, Windows says 59 Hz and madVR something like 59.95 Hz.
From what I understand this is normal.

If I use only one monitor there are no v-sync issues.

It doesn't seem to matter on which monitor the applications are shown.

Software
I'm pretty sure the issue is triggered by madVR because it happens if I have open instances of DVBViewer Pro and/or MPC-HC, both 32 bit and using madVR.
Also I tried VMR 7 and 9 with apparently no issues.
I can't try EVR because I'm on an N edition of Windows.
I'm on madVR 0.89.16.
Again I tried different settings and versions of madVR without finding a solution.

I also tried using another video decoder instead of LAV Video (32-bit, v0.66) but the issue remains so I really think that this is triggered by madVR.

I looked at madVR's OSD both when the issue is present and when it isn't and I couldn't see any relevant difference in stats to get a hint about what's causing the issue.



At this point I really think the only things that I could try are to install the Media Feature Pack for Windows 8.1 or get another GPU.
I'm not too fond of the first option because I'd like to keep my system as lean as possible.
And I'm quite satisfied with my GTX 680.

If anybody has any suggestion or wild guesses it would be really appreciated, thanks.
mcn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 23:12   #34228  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Akron, OH in the U.S.A.
Posts: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
I think DXVA2 is better than quicksync. Use that instead.

Smooth motion is really good, and is probably going to give you the biggest boost if your monitor doesn't support 24fps. The jump from SD->1280x800 isn't too big, so jinc AR for luma is probably sufficient and not too different from what doubling would produce. I don't think you can run SuperRes, but if you can, that's the next thing to try turning on. Use bicubic75 AR or jinc3 AR for chroma if you can afford it.

Checking on 10 bit image/chroma buffer in trade performance for quality is unlikely to result in any visible difference. Those would be worth using for you as well. Disable linear light for dithering is also fine, but I'd leave linear light on for smooth motion because it makes a big difference there.

Ordered dithering is great, and you should use it since it's better than all the alternatives for you.

Debanding can help immensely for sources with banding (obviously), but can cost a bit. Depends if you think your videos need it.
Tried your suggestions, and the only setting that pushed the GPU over the edge was jinc for luma. Had to stick with lanczos. Smooth motion On seems to produce the most visible improvement.

Thanks for the advice.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 00:42   #34229  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,497
@mcn

try overlay mode may fix the issue.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 01:24   #34230  |  Link
onyx76
Registered User
 
onyx76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Argentina
Posts: 4
Best IQ settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
You think this combination is better than SuperRes? I haven't tried it with upscaled sources.
After several tests with upscaled sources I found that the IQ is better in my setup with this settings for all type of content:

Chroma: Jinc + AR
Image: Jinc + AR
Double Luma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Quadruple Luma: 2.4x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Downscaling: Catmull-Rom + AR + LL
Upscaling Refinement: Sharpen Edges (0.5) + Enhance Detail (0.5) + SuperRes (4 +LL)
Artifact Removal - Debanding: Low/High
Image Enhancements: Off
Dithering: ED2 + Use Colored Noise

Render time: 27ms.
__________________
i5 OCed 4 Ghz, Zotac GTX 970 Amp! Extreme Oced (GPU 1382/1534 Mhz, Ram 8 Ghz), Windows 7 SP1 x64, madVR x64, MPC-HC x64, Sony Bravia 46".
onyx76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 02:00   #34231  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,090
Madshi, will image enhancements be shown on the OSD? Or perhaps set an option to allow them to be shown?

Image thinning produces very similar results to awarpsharp but I still prefer the lines it makes (tends to bow things out a bit less) is it possible for the line thinning can be tweaked to produce perhaps similar results? Maybe even something the user could set?

Oh and if you got a chance to add line darkening to the toolbox that's be great.

Last edited by ryrynz; 12th November 2015 at 07:23.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 09:47   #34232  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
When next file in a directory is played then the audio is played only. The video freezes at the previous file. I mean, I have several files in single directory. I use mpc-hc with option to play next file in the directory after playback of the actual file ends. When the next file should be automatically played then the audio starts correctly. However, the video freezes at the last frame of the previously ended file. The same happens when I skip to the next file manually (video freezes at the last played frame of the previous file). I found out that this started with madvr 0.89.13. It is present in all subsequent releases 0.89.14-16. The problem is not present in 0.89.12. I started having the problem while running mpc-hc 1.7.9.190. Now I use mpc-hc 1.7.9.202 and it makes no change. I also use reclock 1.8.8.5. All software is 32-bit, running on Windows 7 64-bit (running geforce drivers 358.91, problem was seen also on 358.50).
Does the media player still react to mouse and keyboard events? E.g. can you press the stop button and it reacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogli View Post
With some old interlaced DVDs I now have some repeated frames (no drops) while using smooth motion since madVR recently introduced automatic switching to DXVA scaling for both chroma and luma when deinterlacing. Does this mean it's a NVIDIA driver bug or still a madVR one?
That's a cosmetical OSD bug. Will be fixed in the next build. You can safely ignore this, it has no meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Your wish is my command: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/150162

All pictures as a .zip file, using .13 with sxbr25+GL SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66), no other refinement was checked and I didn't try LL. Dithering was disabled.
The cleaner edges provide smoother motion, kinda dreaming of 4X SR now tbh and SuperSampling too while we're at it

New GPU's will be out soon and I'd happily use them for outrageous SS SR.
Ok, thanks. I can confirm your results. That's too bad, though, it means higher GPU consumption. And SuperRes is not exactly cheap, anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcn View Post
I'm experiencing a strange v-sync issue with madVR.
This is totally outside of madVR's control. Most probably a GPU driver issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Madshi, will image enhancements be shown on the OSD? Or perhaps set an option to allow them to be shown?
Why? There are a million settings that I could show in the OSD. Why would the image enhancements be special to warrant being added to the OSD? I've added the scaling algos there because it's not always intuitive which decisions madVR makes there when using weird doubling settings etc. But for image enhancements there's nothing special or weird about what madVR is going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Image thinning produces very similar results to awarpsharp but I still prefer the lines it makes (tends to bow things out a bit less) is it possible for the line thinning can be tweaked to produce perhaps similar results? Maybe even something the user could set?
Can you post a screenshot set which shows this quality difference? Please post the original unsharpened screenshot, then the one using awapsharp and the one sharpened by madVR. Try to tune the settings to get identical results. Which might not be easy. Obviously with higher strength there's a higher feature distortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Oh and if you got a chance to add line darkening to the toolbox that's be great.
I'm not sure about that. It sounds like a very specialist algorithm only useful to few people? All the other algos should be useful for everybody. "thin edges" might be an algo which was originally aimed at anime, but it's deadly useful for refining upscales, too, so it's really a very general purpose algo. While line darkening seems to be only useful for anime content to me? This might be an algo most suitable to be run in custom shaders?
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 10:35   #34233  |  Link
chros
Registered User
 
chros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
In my case, on my TV I find 2.2 too bright overall, and 2.4 (even though it comes out of black very quickly, shadow areas are far too bright with both 2.2 and 2.4) a bit too dark overall and a bit too contrasty. Setting the TV to 2.2 and having MadVR apply a 2.35 gamma curve seems just about perfect.
One thing popped in my mind: do you have a "black level" setting on your TV? It usually has the values Low/High. Isn't it set to High for you? Then use Low. And set levels to PC Levels in madvr for your display (or custom levels, as huhn suggested).

Btw: what levels should be set in this case in Lav video decoder. PC or Untuoched? Or does it matter?
I'm using PC now, I have tried untouched but I haven't seen a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
why do a double gamma correction that shouldn't even fix issue like that?

and don't even assume you get the gamma you setup in a TV. without calibration and a meter you don't know what you get and you can assume you have more of an S curve gamma than anything else.

for a dark room you should aim at 2.4 anyway.
Yep, that was a good question I haven't known about the purpose of the custom levels option.
So, I tried it out (instead of changing gamma level to 2.15 in madvr): I had to set black to 1, and all is good. Thank you! The picture is slightly darker now.

Since we are here let me ask you 2 more things. (I don't have meters, I did "calibrate" my display using the mp4 avshd mp4 basic and some other files (for the colors with the help of the built in primary color filters of the TV, that means I haven't changed the settings for grayscale calibration)).

1. what would you suggest to change for watching tv shows/movies during the day? Previously I always raised the backlight of the TV (from 40 to 80-90!), but now I thought maybe I should set the gamma on the TV to 2.2 (with the help of an another IFS user profile, so I can modify the necessary other settings as well (brightness, contrast, etc...)) and just switching between the 2 user profiles.

2. what would you set the color temperature to on the TV (without having done a proper calibration )?
Possible values: cool/medium/warm. The result of them exactly like you can see in the middle of this article. http://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-tv-...oes-it-matter/
I used medium for couple of months now, but yesterday night I tried out warm and it wasn't so bad as was it before (thanks to the modifications that you suggested).
I know that lot of people suggest to go for warm for tv series/movies (probably not for sport events), but it was strange for me all the time.
And last: can it be that you change the color temperature according to day or night watching? (I think no, but I'm not sure.)

Thanks for your help!
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v385.28),Win10 LTSB 1607,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED65B8(2160p@23/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz)
chros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:18   #34234  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I can confirm your results.
OK great, would there be room for further improvement there in your opinion? I guess another pass of SR on top wouldn't be possible without SuperSampling?

NNEDI3 is far more of a GPU hog than SR and I'm totally up for spending GPU load on SR coz again its effect on motion blur is astounding with Reclock, I currently have to zoom in native 1080p material one notch in order to trigger SR and 24p looks a hell lot smoother and focused

I can't bear watching non-SR footage anymore tbh, for instance motion on my HDTV tuner looks way too blurry to me now

Also eagerly awaiting having chroma SR updated but I guess that'll happen soon or later.


Last edited by leeperry; 12th November 2015 at 12:20.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:30   #34235  |  Link
derpycat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Hi I'm having a fairly new issue, though not sure when it started. For some reason 29.796fps videos have 16.68ms intervals instead of the 33.36ms you'd expect, and so I'm getting frame drops even with an average rendering time of 16.6ms. Is this a new behaviour?
derpycat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:42   #34236  |  Link
Murmeltier
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Your wish is my command: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/150162

All pictures as a .zip file, using .13 with sxbr25+GL SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66), no other refinement was checked and I didn't try LL. Dithering was disabled.
The cleaner edges provide smoother motion, kinda dreaming of 4X SR now tbh and SuperSampling too while we're at it

New GPU's will be out soon and I'd happily use them for outrageous SS SR.
Now a direct comparison with NNEDI128 (luma), NNEDI64 (chroma) image doubling and activated "enhance detail" (value = ~0.4) + "crispen edges" (value = 1.1) upscaling refinements in conjunction with possible Catmull-Rom (AR+LL) downscaling and disabled SuperRes would be interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, thanks. I can confirm your results. That's too bad, though, it means higher GPU consumption. And SuperRes is not exactly cheap, anyway...
To make it short. Isn't NNEDI128 image doubling without SuperRes still better than sxbr25 image doubling + an big portion of SuperRes sugar and almost equally hungry when it comes to performance?
Murmeltier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:44   #34237  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,497
is the file interlaced?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:54   #34238  |  Link
derpycat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
is the file interlaced?
Ah, that was it. I had deinterlacing if in doubt, but the files weren't interlaced. Thanks
derpycat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 12:57   #34239  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murmeltier View Post
To make it short. Isn't NNEDI128 image doubling without SuperRes still better than sxbr25 image doubling + an big portion of SuperRes sugar and almost equally hungry when it comes to performance?
There'd have to be a lot of SuperRes passes to get close to NNEDI3 128 performance needs.
I suppose it's not realistic and instead I'd limit SuperRes passes/strength (and NNEDI3 neurons to 64) and maybe apply a bit of "sharpen edges".
sxbr 25 is extremely soft, I think it doesn't make sense at all to use it if you have a GPU that's fast enough for at least 32 neurons of NNEDI3. I suspect there are quite some unwanted side effects when you try to sharpen sxbr 25 with "infinite" SR passes to a decent level.

Btw: I really hope "sharpen edges" won't be more consuming than Adaptive Sharpen in the end.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2015, 13:19   #34240  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murmeltier View Post
Now a direct comparison with NNEDI128 (luma), NNEDI64 (chroma) image doubling and activated "enhance detail" (value = ~0.4) + "crispen edges" (value = 1.1) upscaling refinements in conjunction with possible Catmull-Rom (AR+LL) downscaling and disabled SuperRes would be interesting.

To make it short. Isn't NNEDI128 image doubling without SuperRes still better than sxbr25 image doubling + an big portion of SuperRes sugar and almost equally hungry when it comes to performance?
The thing is that SR is a lot smarter than NNEDI3 both FWIR and to my eyes: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...8&postcount=90

I also don't like how NNEDI3 makes my HD7850 fans whine due to the high load and I especially don't like the artificial looking "thin lines" color NNEDI3 adds to all edges, I'll give you that sxbr+SR might look a little thick but the new "thin edges" with a low value might help.

TBH I only bother posting screenshots comparisons when madshi demands them as I trust my eyes more than anything else and again to my eyes nothing can replace SR so it's a matter of feeding it a scaler that's not über-sharp to begin with. I've posted a .zip file with everything you need if you feel like tinkering
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.