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Old 15th May 2015, 14:54   #30041  |  Link
Dogway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For best scientific scaling you'd need to scale in RGB or YCbCr. And that's what you can do with madVR by enabling the "scale in linear light" option.
Yes, that's true, in avisynth we compress and uncompress gamma in RGB as well. I forgot that bit, it's also prone to ringing or clipping for blacks so it makes sense, thanks for explaining. In that regard is understandable to default to RGB.

I will test with the HLSL shader, it's possible that addgrainC is not deterministic so I can have a better look with the real thing instead. Will be calibrating the panel soon and create a profile for madVR so I still have to learn how the whole thing works.
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:26   #30042  |  Link
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It's probably normal seeing detailing artifacts when you pump the sharpening algorithms. Their job is to expose small deviations and make them clear. What did you expect to happen, pull out of a hat that you don't want to expose a small part of them?

If your source isn't anything too damaged, I would start with no filters at all and then start adding only when needed, if you only care about your everyday normal viewing experience.

Last edited by tobindac; 15th May 2015 at 15:33.
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:32   #30043  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
I think there is something strange at play in madVR resulting in artifacts. Starting by setting both programs to defaults, then configuring both for 10-bit, using the same upscalers, DX11, Shiandow's debanding (with identical settings), SuperChromaRes, and SuperRes (with identical NEDI settings in both), and ordered dithering in both I am seeing more artifacts in madVR than MPDN in the same video scenes. I've included a screen shot below.
Anyone have theories as to what may be causing the additional artifacts in madVR?
For screenshot comparisons it's MUCH better to use two separate images, so you can put each in a browser tab and switch back and forth. Doing that with your images shows that it's not the same frame, which is already a big "no no" for screenshot comparisons. Ignoring that, the madVR image is much much sharper than the other image. Of course if you blur the whole image you also blur the artifacts. So the result is not surprising. I'm not sure why the other image is so much softer. Seems the settings are not perfectly matched, for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
I will test with the HLSL shader, it's possible that addgrainC is not deterministic so I can have a better look with the real thing instead.
Let me know what you find!
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:45   #30044  |  Link
aufkrawall
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@Shiandow:
How can I use it in madVR?
It crashes when the shader files are copied into the specific folder.

Last edited by aufkrawall; 15th May 2015 at 16:05.
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:46   #30045  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually, no. The "octuple" option had nothing to do with that. You can't uncheck "double/quad chroma resolution" if you have NEDI selected because NEDI handles luma+chroma at the same time.
I'm quite sure my problem was real with 0.87.6 using NEDI but then again I was tired so maybe I missed the extra N and 3 at the end as I was doing A/B comparisons between both before you released this build.....long story short 0.87.7 does work exactly as intended TYVM

If anything's confusing it's that both algorithms are almost named exactly the same when one is a GPU hog and looks artificial and the other feeds RGB so it'll also double chroma simultaneously.

I really didn't like NNEDI3's chroma upscaling/doubling artificial look and far prefered Jinc3AR so I'm not sure whether I'm too happy with NEDI's chroma doubling being mandatory but it can't be disabled anyway and PQ is fantastic so whatever

I take it that NEDI chroma upscaling isn't possible?

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Isn't "always - if upscaling is needed" exactly the same as 1.01/2.01? I'm confused.
I was hoping this would mean ">1.0" for both so you could go nuts and force 4X/8X in order to go SuperSampling.

I would personally prefer if "always - if upscaling is needed" really meant what is says as in "always - if >1.0 upscaling is needed" even for 4X/8X and that the next step was ">1.01" for 2X and ">2.01" for 4X/8X.

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
AMD still has interop issues which slow them down so I don't think AMD is a better option for NNEDI3 image doubling
Oh yah, NEDI doesn't use OpenCL and I far prefer it in combo with SuperRes to NNEDI3, Error Diffusion runs DirectCompute and apparently the interop lag is only related to OpenCL so that means that I could finally update from the 13.12 drivers then? Anyone tried that on W7SP1?

AMD will more than likely never fix this issue and might have (far) more efficient GPU's out in a few months so I'd rather not depend on OpenCL anymore.

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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Think about comparisons, when you change settings. Without madVR updating the image we would not have been able to do comparisons within the player. This is intentional and very useful.
Pausing mVR is a total no can do on my rig(HD7850/W7SP1/13.12) as the GPU load goes completely nuts, it's pretty frigging annoying tbh as I always have to stop playback instead of pausing. Pausing is a privilege I'm not entitled to as it would appear
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:55   #30046  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I really didn't like NNEDI3's chroma upscaling/doubling artificial look and far prefered Jinc3AR so I'm not sure whether I'm too happy with NEDI's chroma doubling being mandatory but it can't be disabled anyway and PQ is fantastic so whatever
That confuses me. If NNEDI3 is artificial looking then NEDI is even more so, IMHO. And the effect is more pronounced for luma than for chroma.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I take it that NEDI chroma upscaling isn't possible?
It's possible, but extra work, and I hope that SuperChromaRes will be the better option. But it's too early to talk about that, because we're still in the Deband feedback phase.

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Pausing mVR is a total no can do on my rig(HD7850/W7SP1/13.12) as the GPU load goes completely nuts, it's pretty frigging annoying tbh as I always have to stop playback instead of pausing.
That's due to PotPlayer wanting to draw animations and stuff during paused playback. It's madVR's fault, really, but if you turn the PotPlayer madVR specific OSD off, this problem should go away for now. Of course then you'll probably lose the FSE compatible OSD, as well. The high GPU load in paused state with PotPlayer will probably be fixed in a future build, but it has low priority for now.
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Old 15th May 2015, 16:14   #30047  |  Link
James Freeman
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Anything special to look for besides how effective the debanding filter is?
I guess a lot of people don't have a clue (including me) what to look for, that's why this poll is slowish to say the least.

I guess I'll start with a super compressed video where the banding are absolutely everywhere.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 15th May 2015 at 16:24.
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Old 15th May 2015, 16:17   #30048  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That confuses me. If NNEDI3 is artificial looking then NEDI is even more so, IMHO. And the effect is more pronounced for luma than for chroma.
Well, I think I really hate those "fractal artifacts" with NNEDI3 you mentioned several times:
Quote:
Their NEDI first pass (before running the Super-Res passes) looks very clean, almost without any directional/fractal artifacts.
I realize that you were talking about SmartEdge 2 and maybe it's actually SuperRes that impresses me but at the end of the day I prefer NEDI+SR over NNEDI3, the picture looks more natural to me and it's not a GPU hog so that really kills all birds at once for me.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's due to PotPlayer wanting to draw animations and stuff during paused playback. It's madVR's fault, really, but if you turn the PotPlayer madVR specific OSD off, this problem should go away for now. Of course then you'll probably lose the FSE compatible OSD, as well. The high GPU load in paused state with PotPlayer will probably be fixed in a future build, but it has low priority for now.
Well, its fully skinnable D3D GUI that doesn't break mVR's FSE is part of the package and I really don't like the "windowed/exclusive" constant nagging in the top left corner when disabling it.

I also wish pausing in mVR would kick in some sort of screensaver in order to avoid leaving a fixed image for too long(crucial issue on plasma, and OLED as well FWIR). When I want to pause, I have to close PotP and switch to a TV channel, oh well PQ is totally worth the hassle so no biggy

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we're still in the Deband feedback phase.
Sorry, can't help with that due to my colorblindness.
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Old 15th May 2015, 16:26   #30049  |  Link
aufkrawall
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NNEDI introduces aliasing, NNEDI3 doesn't do this.
That's why NNEDI3 looks by far the best with cartoon content with extreme scaling. To me it looks most natural and I can't tell if artifacts are because of the source or the scaling itself. All I know is that there are least artifacts and it's much sharper than Jinc3.
At least for luma it's better, imho.
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Old 15th May 2015, 16:40   #30050  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Anything special to look for besides how effective the debanding filter is?
I guess a lot of people don't have a clue (including me) what to look for, that's why this poll is slowish to say the least.

I guess I'll start with a super compressed video where the banding are absolutely everywhere.
The trick is that a good deband algo on the one hand has to remove as much banding as possible, but on the other hand should keep all real image detail intact. This is hard because sometimes the difference between banding and image detail is almost impossible to know for a dumb computer algorithm. So what you need to look for is a video source which has visible banding, but which also has low contrast detail. Debanding doesn't have a problem with high contrast detail. But if there's detail which is only visible very weakly, then debanding is in danger of removing it. E.g. imagine a faint real image detail pattern on some shadow area. This pattern might consist of gray tones which are just 1-2 RGB values apart from each other. This is a situation where debanding could accidently remove this faint image detail.

The perfect deband algorithm would remove all the banding, and at the same time keep all the real image detail. IMHO that's probably impossible to do for a non-human-intelligence algorithm. So the best compromise is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Well, I think I really hate those "fractal artifacts" with NNEDI3 you mentioned several times:

I realize that you were talking about SmartEdge 2 and maybe it's actually SuperRes that impresses me but at the end of the day I prefer NEDI+SR over NNEDI3, the picture looks more natural to me and it's not a GPU hog so that really kills all birds at once for me.
NEDI has much stronger fractal artifacts than NNEDI3. However, SuperRes really helps there. So a combination of NEDI+SuperRes *may* be able to compete with NNEDI3. However, you can also combine NNEDI3 with SuperRes, too! So there's a lot of things to try out to find the best quality. But as I said, it's too early to discuss that. We'll come to SuperRes discussion sooner or later, but we're not there yet.

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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
NNEDI introduces aliasing, NNEDI3 doesn't do this.
That's why NNEDI3 looks by far the best with cartoon content with extreme scaling. To me it looks most natural and I can't tell if artifacts are because of the source or the scaling itself. All I know is that there are least artifacts and it's much sharper than Jinc3.
At least for luma it's better, imho.
Agreed. However, SuperRes has the potential to change things. Without SuperRes I would not have added NEDI. Only the combination makes sense, IMHO. But as mentioned before, I'd like to concentrate on debanding for now and move SuperRes/NEDI etc discussion to a later time.

-------

The new Shiandow Deband version will probably be available in madVR on Sunday. It appears to be another step up from the previous build, so I'll be quite interested in hearing your opinions.
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:13   #30051  |  Link
James Freeman
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Found a thoroughly compressed video with lots of night sky content, banding, blocking and what not; did some testing.

Well, my conclusion as before, both the default and shiandow's are doing fine job.
I would be happy with either one.

Both remove from the smallest banding to the biggest macroblocking without apparent "detail" loss.
If the video is so compressed that the detail becomes banding or blocking I don't think we should call it "detail" because there is none, nor should this "detail" should be somehow restored.
You can't restore something that looks like an ugly gradient into a cloud, or a square block into a dog can't you?...
Basically what I'm saying is that if the video is so compressed that there are visible blocking and banding, the 1-3 RGB steps of detail that create the black cat in the shadows, cannot be restored by any algorithm.
IMO, what a good debanding algo should do is remove the banding without effecting the clearly visible detail, the square macroblock cat is not there anymore no matter what you do.

If you ask me specifically about the edges of clear objects near the already debanded gradient (what I think is actual detail loss), I would say they look just as good as without debanding on all settings.
Maybe I'm just not observant enough, but to me it's all good, I am satisfied with the default or with shiandow's.

That's my take.
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:14   #30052  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
2) Or you have the number of video frames which shall be presented in advance set to 16. I've just found out after releasing v0.88.7 that 15 is that max I can do. Using 16 means the D3D11 device creation fails. So lower this option to 14 (15 isn't currently supported), and D3D11 should start working again.
That's it! It works with 14 frame presented in advance. Thanks

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So your blurred mode is known to Windows as 23p and your "good" mode is known to Windows as 24p? Which modes did you add to the madVR display mode changing list?
Yes, it's correct but in madvr display mode I have to set 1080p23 even if the "good" mode is 24p. If I set 1080p24 it will create a brand new resolution with exact 24.000 Hz which also has a blurred image like the original "bad" 23p.
In d3d9 (windowed and FSE) and d3d11 (windowed only) madvr treats the 1080p23 mode as the "good" one. Only in d3d11 FSE there is the switch with the "bad" one.
This switch occours even if I disable the display modes and set the "good" mode through the nvidia control panel
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:34   #30053  |  Link
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I actually saw your comment and tried that before I posted last night. Thank you though.
Even with the default setting, it still shows FSE 8-bit mode before the monitor's native's bit depth is changed from 8-bit to 10-bit. After that change, FSE 10-bit mode works fine on mine with madVR 0.88.7.

- Core i5-3550K, Z87, DDR3-2400 8GB
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- Sony 65HX920 @ 1920x1080p23~p60 (always) 10-bit signal modes.
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:39   #30054  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

That's due to PotPlayer wanting to draw animations and stuff during paused playback. It's madVR's fault, really, but if you turn the PotPlayer madVR specific OSD off, this problem should go away for now. Of course then you'll probably lose the FSE compatible OSD, as well. The high GPU load in paused state with PotPlayer will probably be fixed in a future build, but it has low priority for now.
I had figured this out quite quickly when using D3D11... pressing the TAB key to pull up the OSD of PotPlayer would sort of kick madVR out of whack and it couldn't recover without a playback restart. Selecting "display messages on image itself" helped with the TAB OSD message... put pausing still borks madVR, even just clicking on the other desktop can do it. So I have resorted to not using D3D11.

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Old 15th May 2015, 17:59   #30055  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I hope Shiandow will provide us with a shader so that we won't have to wait until Sunday for his new deband filter in madVR.

Other PP tests shouldn't be blocked for too long, I'm still very sure that SuperRes for chroma gives unwanted results and that NNEDI3 + SuperRes for luma beats everything by far and have found a nice demonstration.
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:59   #30056  |  Link
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SuperRes appears to work on 288p videos but not on 720p videos. Here are some screenshots. With the 720p video, rendering stats are unaffected by SuperRes. These are displayed on 768p display.

288p Normal


288p SuperRes (higher rendering time as expected)


720p Normal


720p SuperRes -- SuperRes isn't working!


Here I'm setting quality to high so that rendering times are more obvious.

That's in addition to very high rendering times on 1080p display. For the 288p video, with SuperRes 2 passes medium quality, rendering time goes from 6ms to 11ms in windowed mode. At 1080p, it was going from 14ms to 39ms! I'd have to take screenshots next time the TV is hooked up.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:10.
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Old 15th May 2015, 18:03   #30057  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Sorry, can't help with that due to my colorblindness.
i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with seeing banding.
you can easily get banding on a gray ramp.
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Old 15th May 2015, 18:06   #30058  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
I think there is something strange at play in madVR resulting in artifacts. Starting by setting both programs to defaults, then configuring both for 10-bit, using the same upscalers, DX11, Shiandow's debanding (with identical settings), SuperChromaRes, and SuperRes (with identical NEDI settings in both), and ordered dithering in both I am seeing more artifacts in madVR than MPDN in the same video scenes. I've included a screen shot below.
Anyone have theories as to what may be causing the additional artifacts in madVR?

http://s17.postimg.org/lznm6e7j1/madvr_vs_mpdn.jpg
In particular I notice the additional artifacts around the Japanese characters/letters, edge and teeth of the creature, and floating green debris. While its not a huge overall difference it is noticeable to me.
MPDN and madVR doesn't have the same JINC resizer. but i agree left is sharper and has a little bit more artifacts. should be easier to compare on 2 screens.
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Old 15th May 2015, 18:09   #30059  |  Link
kasper93
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720p SuperRes -- SuperRes isn't working!
Of course it isn't working, because you are downscaling image.

If you want to sharpen source image do it in "image enchantments" section.
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Old 15th May 2015, 18:27   #30060  |  Link
MysteryX
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Of course it isn't working, because you are downscaling image.

If you want to sharpen source image do it in "image enchantments" section.
When I play 720p in 768p full-screen, it is upscaling and isn't working either.


Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:10.
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