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Old 13th May 2015, 00:18   #29801  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
Dude, I hope I wont ruin your day/night, but it does not work for me. It still switches to 59 when entering FullScreen.
Let's hope it's only me. xD
Did it ever work for you, in D3D9, I mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i know content where nnedi3 chroma upsampling does have a very huge effect... pixel art computer games. but i don't think that matters.
FWIW, NNEDI3 is still supported for chroma upsampling, just not for chroma doubling. Could you test that pixel art games for quality differences between 1) v0.87.21 NNEDI3 chroma doubling 2) v0.87.21 Jinc3 AR chroma doubling 3) Catmull-Rom AR chroma doubling?
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:36   #29802  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, NNEDI3 is still supported for chroma upsampling, just not for chroma doubling. Could you test that pixel art games for quality differences between 1) v0.87.21 NNEDI3 chroma doubling 2) v0.87.21 Jinc3 AR chroma doubling 3) Catmull-Rom AR chroma doubling?
sorry should be more clear. even quadrupling has a huge effect compared to jinc or other resizer.
so i'm talking about the even more demanding setting like the usually total over kill called NNEDI3 chroma doubling.
it's a 320x200 pixel art game stored in RGB not a real source.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:37   #29803  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Seeking is problematic unless pre-rendered frames are set to Application.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 13th May 2015 at 01:04.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:38   #29804  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I could also use double float (64bit) for all madVR calculations and store all temp results in 32bit float. That would in theory increase the precision and exactness of madVR's rendering. But it wouldn't bring a visible improvement, and would slow down everything a lot.
I'm not exactly sure if this is a good comparison...

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The first page says "highest quality has priority over anything else", and that is still my goal. However, the point here is that I don't think that there's a visible difference between Catmull-Rom and Jinc for chroma doubling. The situation is different for chroma upscaling. There the difference is much bigger than for chroma doubling.
Good point.
Btw: How'd I use chroma doubling with 0.87? Testing with 4:2:2 content? If yes, this is way too much effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You will get highest quality by spending your GPU for algorithms which make a difference.
Yes, but afaik, C-R is hardly better in any situation compared to Jinc3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Instead of worrying about chroma doubling, have a look at FineSharp and SuperRes.
SuperRes for luma is tempting.
However, I'd really like to have a deblocking filter because sharpening can make the blocking way too obtrusive.

I know this may seem like a fuss about nothing, but I still think this optimization can make much sense for slow GPUs, but not for fast ones.
Maxwell was a huge boost for HTPC and 16nm GPUs are probably not very far either.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:40   #29805  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
sorry should be more clear. even quadrupling has a huge effect compared to jinc or other resizer.
so i'm talking about the even more demanding setting like the usually total over kill called NNEDI3 chroma doubling.
it's a 320x200 pixel art game stored in RGB not a real source.
Luma quadrupling yes. But chroma doubling/quadrupling? I'd like to see a comparison screenshot.

Does the test build fix the refresh rate problem for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
With D3D11 Presentation enabled, seeking in MP4 files causes the video to skip in a loop. Disabling it fixes it.
I doubt that it has to do with MP4 files.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:41   #29806  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Luma quadrupling yes. But chroma doubling/quadrupling? I'd like to see a comparison screenshot.

Does the test build fix the refresh rate problem for you?


I doubt that it has to do with MP4 files.
Fixed by setting Pre-rendered frames to Application instead of 1 in NVIDIA Control Panel.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 13th May 2015 at 00:56.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:43   #29807  |  Link
mark0077
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madshi, this is a question, not specifically related to the newer versions of madVR so absolutely no priority in a reply to this (FYI using the latest 0.88.5 version)

I just got a GTX 980 and have it overclocked as much as I can push it, so I have been experimenting with NNEDI 32 neurons for image doubling / quadrupling. Quadrupling seems to be working fine at 32 neurons on very low resolution files. I'm now testing of a movie which is 1280 x 720, so to get to 1920 x 1080 I can see the following is being used in Ctrl-J stats

chroma > Jinc3 AR
luma > Nnedi32 < Catmull-Rom AR
chroma > Catmull-Rom AR

This seems to be alot more demanding than the quadrupling of the lower resolution files, which is fine, so in gpu-z I can see GPU Load hitting ~90% but my question is.

I don't see any dropped frames, delayed frames or presentation glitches, however the queues are as follows

decoder queue 15-16 / 16
upload queue 7-8 / 8
render queue 1-2 / 8
present queue 0-2 / 8

My question is, although I know my gpu is literally at its absolute limits, how come some of the queues seem full, while others are nearly empty all the time, yet my gpu isn't under enough pressure to drop frames. Absolutely very low priority question, just thought it was worth mentioning as I'm not sure if the render and present queues not being full in this scenario may be something madVR is controlling and could potentially be improved to have them more full seeing as frames aren't being dropped.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:44   #29808  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Luma quadrupling yes. But chroma doubling/quadrupling? I'd like to see a comparison screenshot.

Does the test build fix the refresh rate problem for you?
i wasn't on the right PC haven't even installed that.

i go install 87.21 do some screens (found the video i did these chroma doubling/quadrupling test month ago) and than test your new 88 build.

nedi totally fails for pixel art by the way.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:45   #29809  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
How'd I use chroma doubling with 0.87? Testing with 4:2:2 content? If yes, this is way too much effort.
The source format doesn't matter. Any source will do, 4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:4:4 or even RGB. We're not talking about 4:2:0 -> 4:4:4 chroma upsampling here, but about "doubling" the chroma channels when the luma channel is doubled with NNEDI3 at the same time. With v0.87.21 you can double chroma in the "image doubling" settings page. Or you can switch "image upscaling" to Jinc3 AR, then that will be used for doubling chroma, as well, if NNEDI3 chroma doubling is disabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Yes, but afaik, C-R is hardly better in any situation compared to Jinc3.
Jinc3 AR does cost a lot more performance than Catmull-Rom AR. The difference should be noticeable even on a fast GPU. It might not be a night-and-day difference, but even saving 2-3ms can help if you want to use other algorithms, as well.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:49   #29810  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
My question is, although I know my gpu is literally at its absolute limits, how come some of the queues seem full, while others are nearly empty all the time, yet my gpu isn't under enough pressure to drop frames. Absolutely very low priority question, just thought it was worth mentioning as I'm not sure if the render and present queues not being full in this scenario may be something madVR is controlling and could potentially be improved to have them more full seeing as frames aren't being dropped.
I don't know. If your GPU is fast enough, the queues should be full. If it's not fast enough, you should be dropping frames. I don't know why your queues would be near empty, but playback is still smooth. Make sure in your NVidia control panel you have the max number of pre-rendered frames set to application controlled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i go install 87.21 do some screens (found the video i did these chroma doubling/quadrupling test month ago) and than test your new 88 build.

nedi totally fails for pixel art by the way.
Thanks.

NEDI works ok for pixel art, when combined with SuperRes. Without SuperRes it totally fails, that's true.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:54   #29811  |  Link
mark0077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't know. If your GPU is fast enough, the queues should be full. If it's not fast enough, you should be dropping frames. I don't know why your queues would be near empty, but playback is still smooth. Make sure in your NVidia control panel you have the max number of pre-rendered frames set to application controlled.
OK cool, when I go down to 16 neurons all queues fill up again, just thought it might be an algorithm in madVR perhaps to balance the queues based on some priority, but I guess not.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:56   #29812  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Quote:
1) With v0.87.21, what happens if you disable Chroma doubling and Chroma quadrupling (right side of the image doubling page)? Do you then get similar results to v0.88.5?
With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
- Rendering times are about 20-22ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (BOTH LUMA AND CHROMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (ONLY LUMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.
- I do not get the same results with build 88.5. Please see below.


Quote:
2) What are your rendering times with: a) v0.87.21 with your original settings. b) v0.87.21 with disabled Chroma doubling/quadrupling. c) v0.88.5?
A) With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
Original Settings
- Rendering times are about 20-22ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (BOTH LUMA AND CHROMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.

B) With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
Chroma Doubling + Quadrupling disabled
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (ONLY LUMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.

C) With build 88.5 (ALL new features turned off, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frame drop this time!

I even went back and set Image Upscaling to Jinc 3 tapm, enabled the Shiandow's Deband Algorithm, and enabled SuperRes filter for Chroma Upscaling and it produced no frame drops! Quadrupling issue is SOLVED with 88.5! . Using SuperRes fot Image Refinment in addition to settings above resulted in frame drops, but as you said - those settings are only for testing.
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 13th May 2015 at 01:35.
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Old 13th May 2015, 00:59   #29813  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Will you be adding 60 frames to render ahead for Windowed and Fullscreen now that D3D11 can sync to the VSYNC rate? Or am I misunderstanding the whole D3D11 mode that was recently added?

I've found setting Windowed and Fullscreen to 16 and GPU que to 16 with CPU que at 20 provides very low ms (10-20 ms) playback.
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:00   #29814  |  Link
detmek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ouch. I'm sorry that you spent so much time with different OSs just to find out it didn't help at all. Unfortunately I don't know what to do. I can't reproduce the problem you have on my PC. And it seems nobody else has the same problem which you have. I've no clue why.

If it would be very easy for you, maybe you could create a short digicam video, showing the problem you're seeing? But don't bother if it would be hard for you to do.
No problem. Like I said, I wanted to try Windows 10. I guess I should tried fresh install as Win 8.1 > Win 10 didn't work for me.

Anyway, I created 2 clips, one with Bandicam and one with my compact digicam.

P.S. That half a second black screen is because I restarted playback with Ctrl + E.


I also noticed that Render Queue is not full in D3D11 mode although rendering times are low but I can't remember if I saw that under Windows 8.1.

No big deal. I just wanted to try D3D11 for better performance. I don't need 10-bit output or so. Madshi
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:13   #29815  |  Link
agustin9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've done some digging and hacking and raping Direct3D, I think I have the refresh rate problems sorted out. Give this build a try:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix.zip

Should work for D3D9 and D3D11 now, and also for 64bit. Once again, I've spent a lot of time to fix Microsoft's stupidity. They actually *intentionally* use 59.940Hz (23.976Hz) even if you ask for 60.000Hz (24.000Hz). There's no way to convince Direct3D to use 60.000 (24.000), except by going behind their back and twisting and binding their fingers, like I've done. I wonder if there's any other software besides madVR which can switch FSE mode to 24.000/60.000? I kinda doubt it...
With this build it switches to 59.93, and leave the screen in that refresh rate even after I go back to windowed. Previously when going back to windowed it switched to 59.99. Windows 8.1 here
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:17   #29816  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
NEDI works ok for pixel art, when combined with SuperRes. Without SuperRes it totally fails, that's true.
ok quadrupling is not that huge sorry but placebo? not sure.chroma doubling is quiet something!

chroma upscale
jinc3AR: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3jinc3arx2syl.png
nnedix2: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax2posri.png
nnedix4: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax424swl.png
editv2: catmull-rom AR http://abload.de/img/nnedi3catv2misgl.png

and with some more jinc3ar scaling on top:
jinc3AR: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3jinc3arg2sj3.png
nnedix2: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax2rtsql.png
nnedix4: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax4z7ssj.png

i wouldn't be shock if scaling to UHD would show some more potential for quadrupling on this source. but this source is just ...

edit2:added the right frame

Last edited by huhn; 13th May 2015 at 15:01.
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:28   #29817  |  Link
mark0077
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Originally Posted by agustin9 View Post
With this build it switches to 59.93, and leave the screen in that refresh rate even after I go back to windowed. Previously when going back to windowed it switched to 59.99. Windows 8.1 here
Maybe you guys already know about this utility, but its what I have used in windows 7 / 8 to stop my PC setting my TV to 59.9X mode.

http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Th...on-Utility-CRU

It lets you set what resolutions your display is allowed to use. Once setup correctly, you can make your display only be allowed use 60hz for example by removing the other ones you don't want to allow. This worked for me with a bit of fiddling.
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:35   #29818  |  Link
pirlouy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Did it ever work for you, in D3D9, I mean?
No. As i said earlier, I already had this problem with 0.87.21 (no D3D11 if I understood correctly).
I noticed the problem with x64 build since the 64 build switches to 59Hz.
I never noticed the problem with x86 builds before because in fact the x86 build auto switches to 60Hz and I was already in 60Hz.

I don't know if I'm clear but:

With x86 build ; desktop to 59Hz; No D3D11; launching file; goes into FullScreen Exclusive --> Switches to 60Hz

With x86 build ; desktop to 60Hz; No D3D11; launching file; goes into FullScreen Exclusive --> No Switches

With x64 build ; desktop to 60Hz; No D3D11; launching file; goes into FullScreen Exclusive --> Switches to 59Hz

With x64 build ; desktop to 59Hz; No D3D11; launching file; goes into FullScreen Exclusive --> No Switches.


But during my extensive tests today, I've most of all noticed Fullscreen Exclusive causes dropped frames and other nasty things. For now, the windows renderer is way better for me. But I don't think it is linked with 0.88 since it is the same if I don't use D3D11.

Last edited by pirlouy; 13th May 2015 at 01:39.
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Old 13th May 2015, 01:43   #29819  |  Link
huhn
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refreshratefix doesn't fix the issue and yes the issue is there with normal FSE mode too.

only 32 bit FSE works fine interesting.

Last edited by huhn; 13th May 2015 at 01:46.
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Old 13th May 2015, 02:44   #29820  |  Link
Dogway
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Profiles are not supported yet for displays. I'm not totally sure I understand what you need/want. madVR should only switch to 1080p24 for 24fps sources, anyway. So what else do you want?
If I only have 1080p24 (or 1080p23 for that matter) in the setting box, every video that goes to fullscreen will turn the TV to 1080p24 mode regardless of source fps. You say this shouldn't happen right? I use madVR v0.87.21, and a bit older MPC-HC (for a reason) v1.6.9.7418 Lite, not sure this is the culprit.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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