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Old 11th May 2015, 21:16   #29681  |  Link
luk008
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Thanks for the new release, madshi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
10-bit Display Support Test

This test will make it easier to see if your display actually supports 10bit input to output.
I've just done your test and the banding is different from 8 bit to 10 bit in my LG LB6500 42". The 10 bit banding is almost imperceptible compared to 8 bit.

The only thing I found strange is that 10 bit color depth is not available at my catalyst options menu (only 8 is available). I've thought that my TV was 8 bit only (if it really were 8 bit only the banding from 10 and 9 would be the same, right?).

With 10 bit I don't need to use the madvr dithering right?
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:16   #29682  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... This build should show a MessageBox and then close the media player:

http://madshi.net/madVR883test.rar

What does the MessageBox say? (And why oh why do these crashes *never* occur on my PC!?!?!?)
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:20   #29683  |  Link
madshi
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Thanks. Does this one fix it?

http://madshi.net/madVR883fix2.rar
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:20   #29684  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luk008 View Post
I've thought that my TV was 8 bit only (if it really were 8 bit only the banding from 10 and 9 would be the same, right?).
Correct, that's the whole point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luk008 View Post
With 10 bit I don't need to use the madvr dithering right?
NO, you should always use dithering; 1024 points is still not enough mathematically, even though visually it is (in 1000:1 display).
Dithered 10bit is more like 13-14bit visually..

Quote:
The only thing I found strange is that 10 bit color depth is not available at my catalyst options menu (only 8 is available).
The OS is 8bit as always, but Direct3D 11 allows 10 and 16 bit when in exclusive fullscreen mode and not only in madVR.

Lets move this 10-bit Display Support Test discussion to this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128
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Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 21:29.
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:22   #29685  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks. Does this one fix it?

http://madshi.net/madVR883fix2.rar
Fixed.

Mind me asking, what the problem was that only some people like me got that? Is it a workaround or was it just an oversight with the code?
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:24   #29686  |  Link
noee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks. Does this one fix it?

http://madshi.net/madVR883fix2.rar

yep, here on MPC-HC and MC20
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:26   #29687  |  Link
madshi
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Was a stupid bug on my side, which seemingly Windows 8.1 x64 didn't have a problem with. My best guess is that Windows 7 didn't like it.
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:28   #29688  |  Link
James Freeman
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Was a stupid bug on my side, which seemingly Windows 8.1 x64 didn't have a problem with. My best guess is that Windows 7 didn't like it.
Nope.
W7 64 over here, and the first 88.3 worked fine.
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:28   #29689  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.88.4 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed startup crash in Windows 7, introduced in v0.88.3
* NNEDI3 doubling: chroma is now always upscaled with max 2 taps
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:49   #29690  |  Link
Razoola
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088.4 has seemed to fix a lot of issues I was having with MPC-HC not closing down correctly
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:50   #29691  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
* NNEDI3 doubling: chroma is now always upscaled with max 2 taps
Can you please explain the last two changes regarding NNEDI3 chroma doubling in a bit more detail?

I guess you removed NNEDI3 chroma doubling, because there really was no use case for it and no one could see differences?* What exactly is the second change, I am not sure I understand it and what your intention with that change is?

Thanks!

*I think I remember that chroma upscaling was used first anyway and when you do image doubling afterwards, you basically already have a fully upsampled chroma so the whole image (chroma+luma) is doubled, so no need for chroma doubling anymore. Correct?

Last edited by iSunrise; 11th May 2015 at 21:55.
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Old 11th May 2015, 21:53   #29692  |  Link
yok833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.88.4 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed startup crash in Windows 7, introduced in v0.88.3
* NNEDI3 doubling: chroma is now always upscaled with max 2 taps
Many thanks Madshi.... I dream that one day the developers from nvidia fix their firmwares as fast as you do
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:25   #29693  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Can you please explain the last two changes regarding NNEDI3 chroma doubling in a bit more detail?

I guess you removed NNEDI3 chroma doubling, because there really was no use case for it and no one could see differences?* What exactly is the second change, I am not sure I understand it and what your intention with that change is?
When doing image doubling, the "input" into the doubling algorithm is always RGB. When using NNEDI3 for doubling, this RGB image is then split into Luma and Chroma. Luma is doubled with NNEDI3. Chroma is doubled by using the "image upscaling" algorithm - but only if it has less than 3 taps. If the "image upscaling" algorithm has 3 taps or more, madVR doubles Chroma by using Catmull-Rom instead. I've implemented these changes because the algorithm used for Chroma doubling is very very unimportant, so it's no use wasting precious GPU processing time there.
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:30   #29694  |  Link
iSunrise
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Wow! I cannot believe it. This is just great.

Even though all information I could find about firmware and internals said otherwise, my Eizo CG243W does indeed accept full 10bit input over a single-link DVI-D connection (it doesn't have dual-link).

For anyone that is interested, I am testing with LightIllusion's official calibration images (.TIF) in 16bit (48bit) precision, where I can clearly discern differences between 8bit and 10bit. And I didn't expect that I could even tell them apart, but I clearly can. The pattern is completely smooth, like a baby's arse (so to speak). Huge improvement compared to 8bit. Didn't expect that at all.

Finally I am able to use my expensive CG also for maximum precision movie playback! Perfect!

Thank you so much madshi for creating madVR, this is another of these times when I am completely astounded by your work. Just...genius.

One very big important thing though:
It only works in FSE mode, so don't get fooled when it doesn't work in windowed, you have to be in FSE.

Last edited by iSunrise; 11th May 2015 at 22:33.
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:32   #29695  |  Link
Anima123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.88.4 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed startup crash in Windows 7, introduced in v0.88.3
* NNEDI3 doubling: chroma is now always upscaled with max 2 taps
Can someone confirm that the dithering of Error Diffusion not working anymore? I mostly judge by the rendering time not increasing when enabled, unlike before.
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:35   #29696  |  Link
iSunrise
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Can someone confirm that the dithering of Error Diffusion not working anymore? I mostly judge by the rendering time not increasing when enabled, unlike before.
Works just fine for me.

You can easily test it if you go to the display's native bitdepth setting and set something very low like 2bit. When you enable any of the dithering options they all work as intended, you get a lot more precision as a result (lots of dots).
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:44   #29697  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Wow! I cannot believe it. This is just great.

Even though all information I could find about firmware and internals said otherwise, my Eizo CG243W does indeed accept full 10bit input over a single-link DVI-D connection (it doesn't have dual-link).

For anyone that is interested, I am testing with LightIllusion's official calibration images (.TIF) in 16bit (48bit) precision, where I can clearly discern differences between 8bit and 10bit. And I didn't expect that I could even tell them apart, but I clearly can. The pattern is completely smooth, like a baby's arse (so to speak). Huge improvement compared to 8bit. Didn't expect that at all.
Is that with dithering enabled or disabled? FWIW, if 10bit works correctly from start to finish, if you enable dithering, you should not see any difference in smoothness, but you should see a lower noise floor in 10bit compared to 8bit. Is that what you're seeing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anima123 View Post
Can someone confirm that the dithering of Error Diffusion not working anymore? I mostly judge by the rendering time not increasing when enabled, unlike before.
It's working fine here. However, with active 10bit output (in D3D11 FSE mode) error diffusion is disabled automatically and ordered dithering is used instead. The reason for that is that at 10bit, the quality of the dithering should play no role for image quality, anymore. This only applies to 10bit FSE mode, though. In windowed mode (which is always max 8bit) error diffusion is still used.
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Old 11th May 2015, 22:55   #29698  |  Link
JarrettH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Try Lanczos3 AR instead. Or even Catmull Rom AA. If you're using image doubling + quadrupling, the image upscaling algorithm is much less important, and it's used for upscaling the chroma part of the image, when using NNEDI3 for image doubling.
Could you expand on that? What effect does the choice of luma upscaling have on image doubling? Is only chroma upscaling happening?

What happens with image doubling?
If my video is 1280x720, does it then become 2560x1440, then downscaled to fit my 1080p screen?

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Old 11th May 2015, 22:58   #29699  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
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Is that with dithering enabled or disabled? FWIW, if 10bit works correctly from start to finish, if you enable dithering, you should not see any difference in smoothness, but you should see a lower noise floor in 10bit compared to 8bit. Is that what you're seeing?
I basically disabled dithering and worked my way up from 2bit to fnally 10bit, where the important step from 8bit to 10bit is making a huge difference. When I am at 8bit I can still see very tiny "lines" from top to bottom [with the described 16bit (48bit) BWramp] and with 10bit I cannot discern any gradient steps anymore with my eyes, even when my nose is glued to the display. It's like a B&W rainbow with too many steps that I cannot make out anymore. Completely smooth.

About the additional dithering, yes, that should indeed lead to a lower noise floor, since your output is fp16, right? When judging purely with my eyes, though, 10bit seems to be the absolute limit that I can personally perceive (on this display at least). The additional dithering may just be the icing on the cake.

Last edited by iSunrise; 11th May 2015 at 23:07.
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Old 11th May 2015, 23:05   #29700  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
What happens with image doubling?
If my video is 1280x720, does it then become 2560x1440, then downscaled to fit my 1080p screen?

that's how image doubling works. and the reason i think 1.2x or always are a total waste.
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