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5th March 2015, 21:30 | #28381 | Link | |
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It is my understanding that motion with flicker-type displays is typically perceived as much smoother and natural compared to sample-and-hold displays. It is even argued that the rationale behind motion interpolation features of modern TVs is to compensate for that difference. |
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5th March 2015, 22:06 | #28382 | Link | |
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When brought to the digital flat panel market, the low frame rate is no longer masked by changing the exposure and panning scenes are revealed as being slow and choppy. The artifacts I've seen could likely be due to the TV's 24p mode more than anything. I don't know. So native 24hz playback is not quite the exact same experience as the original projection. |
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5th March 2015, 22:06 | #28383 | Link | |
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Movie theaters display each frame 2 or 3 times to avoid nasty flickering. My display also has a flickering mode (5 times per frame viewing 24p) but this doesn't improve the apparent smoothness, it reduces the apparent motion blur. It does work better on high frame rate content so motion interpolation has a benefit there. With multiple flickers you get apparent ghosting as your eyes track moving objects while the object is actually still for multiple refreshes. I do think the bright line refresh of CRTs and shutter movement of a theater projector is better with this than a backlight flickering sample and hold display but again this doesn't change the fact that matched refresh rates are ideal. |
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5th March 2015, 22:19 | #28384 | Link | |
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The tightest lip sync was achieved with build 1.4.4 of MPC-BE using the improved MPC Audio Renderer. It is near perfect, but my TV still seems to exhibit more drift than in 60hz mode. Given a ho-hum experience using 24p mode, I don't feel like I am missing a lot by sticking with 60hz playback. I am happy with it as is. Last edited by Warner306; 5th March 2015 at 23:02. |
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5th March 2015, 22:36 | #28385 | Link | |
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The last time I was looking into GPUs 3-4 years ago nvidia had the big advantage because of CUVID. Is that still the case or are both AMD and nvidia on a level playing field? |
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5th March 2015, 22:48 | #28386 | Link | |
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This thread offers a lot of information about this topic: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80258.0. |
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5th March 2015, 22:57 | #28387 | Link | |
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6th March 2015, 04:48 | #28388 | Link | ||
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That is along the lines of what I had originally hoped to do, but I was unable to find details on how this might be achieved (people doing similar things were using oscilloscopes rather than a sound card) and I actually do occasional AV calibration work so it suits me a lot more to have a stand-alone device like this which can just go with the rest of my kit. If you're just setting up one display, one source, and you have a laptop with a suitable mic input, that definitely seems like a good option. I realize that it is expensive for a "basic" device, but it's entirely self-contained, you get immediate results, it incorporates data logging, and anyone can use it. While expensive for what it is, it's probably the least-expensive part of my calibration gear. Quote:
My display is about 20ms when measured at 60Hz in game mode--the number you are likely to see published in a review--but I need a total correction of 156ms for AV sync when everything is taken into account. (display at 24Hz, in film mode rather than game, separate audio device latency, video player latency, VST plug-in latency etc.) |
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6th March 2015, 08:06 | #28390 | Link | |
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I do notice the most gains with madVR, but not too much in using the various hardware acceleration modes like NVIDIA CUDA, Intel QuickSync, DXVA2 (both native and copyback). All look the same to me. |
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6th March 2015, 08:18 | #28391 | Link | ||||
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Using 60Hz with frame creation creates a few issues for me. First one of course is MadVR's 3:2 display breaking it, next switching panning directions frame creation stutters for a second or two and lastly when seeking on occasion there will be massive stuttering that only a new seek fixes, frame creation is not very forgiving it seems. Running at 24Hz fixes all of these. Quote:
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I can't imagine how "artifacts are introduced" when you're playing it in it's unadulterated form. Really there is no way around it, if you want "smooth motion" you need to pay the price with artifacts to do it, whether it's intelligent frame creation on the display, SVP or MadVR's Smooth Motion or something similar. Personally I can't stand juddering pans and scrolls.. so frame creation it has to be for me. I see the odd artifact (a sort of accidental estimation) that even the latest TVs still do but considering what it gives me in smoothness I can't complain. If you don't have something similar run SVP.. it's quality isn't that far behind what you'll find in today's 100Hz or similar TV's. It's demanding though and It will crank your fan speed up. Quick OT. Can anyone care to enlighten me why there's no judder during panning at the cinemas with what would be standard 24fps films? Last edited by ryrynz; 6th March 2015 at 08:29. |
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6th March 2015, 09:29 | #28392 | Link | |
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24fps is just too low a framerate. |
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6th March 2015, 09:55 | #28393 | Link | |
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Before i had a way to check the audio sync i was never really sure if everything was perfectly synced. It's crazy how far you can be out of sync but still think everything is fine. What i noticed is that there are definately some settings in various software (reclock, mpc, madvr, etc) that have an influence on the A/V sync, and without any ability to check what the result is on the sync it's impossible to say if you are in front of behind with the audio. |
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6th March 2015, 10:06 | #28394 | Link | |||||
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Well, for me pulldown judder is extremely annoying. I absolutely hate it. That might have to do with me living in PAL land, where movies are sped up from 24p to 25p by increasing the playback rate, and then they're shown in 50Hz. So there's never been pulldown here in PAL land. Quote:
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6th March 2015, 10:27 | #28395 | Link | ||
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What is it about my results that makes you think it does 60->24->60? Quote:
But I just hate anything breaking the smoothness of frame creation so 60Hz is out during video playback. Never thought 3:2 and 60Hz would be such a downer for video playback.. live and learn. |
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6th March 2015, 10:36 | #28396 | Link | ||
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6th March 2015, 11:25 | #28397 | Link | |||
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I tried a HDMI to DVI adapter but that didn't change anything, ah well It's not perfect but at least it's smooth. |
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6th March 2015, 11:32 | #28398 | Link |
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Ah, I see. So the imperfect 3:2 pulldown used by the current madVR build doesn't really bother you at all. You just noticed it, correct? I think since the introduction of smooth motion FRC most users don't use madVR's pulldown, anymore. Instead most users either have a matching framerate / refresh rate setup, or they use smooth motion FRC. So although I'm aware of that the pulldown needs an improvement, I don't think it's very urgent...
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6th March 2015, 12:22 | #28399 | Link | |
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Not sure if the pulldown problem is related at all, but sometimes I don't have consistent smooth frame delivery on the PC. It's just the odd small jump whilst replaying panning scenes. It could just be that it occurs after seeking (clock related?) Will maybe do a comparison once 0.88 is out. |
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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