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Old 17th November 2014, 08:14   #1  |  Link
generalmx
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Posts: 11
Troubleshooting Anime Pan & Scan problems when using madVR?

I doubt there's really a fix for this, but I've been fighting pan&scan "judder" on anime for a very long time now. If it's not 10-bit I can use SVP, which seriously helps, but otherwise I just need to grin & bear it.

Specs
OS: Windows 8.1 Pro w/ WMC 64-bit
GPU: Radeon R9 290X (also happened with GTX 680 4GB)
CPU: Xeon E3-1230v3 @ 3.3GHz (Haswell Core i7 equivalent)
RAM: 16GB
Player: Media Player Classic Lite
Codecs/Helpers: LAV, XySubFilter, ReClock

madVR stats
Display: 23.999897 Hz
smooth motion off
full screen windowed mode (new path)
movie 23.810 FPS (for this one test file)
1 frame repeat every 1.46 seconds
movie resolution: 720p, usually
VSync Interval: 41.67ms
movie frame interval: 42.00ms
dropped frames: nearly none (most are due to pausing/starting and expanding the window)
repeated frames: lots
delayed frames: almost always 0
presentation glitches: always 0
average stats:
- rendering: ~15ms
- interop: ~1.26ms
- present: ~0.11ms
max stats (5s):
- rendering: ~45ms, sometimes jumping as high as ~60ms*
- present: ~0.2ms, sometimes jumping as high as ~5ms*
* - likely due to seeking and/or buffering

Desktop Resolution: 3840x2160p (Screen 2)* or 1920x1200p (Screen 1)*
* - same problem occurs at desktop resolution of 1080p for both screens; the GPU isn't being overloaded either way.

My madVR settings for 720p@24 upscaled to 2160p@24:
Code:
-- Image Doubling:
* Use NNEDI3 to double Luma resolution, always, 16 neurons
* Use NNEDI3 to double Chroma resolution, always, 16 neurons
* Use alternative interop hack
-- Chroma Upscaling: NNEDI3, 32 neurons
-- Image Upscaling: Jinc, 3 taps, activate AR filter
-- Smooth Motion: on if display refresh rate is an exact multiple of movie frame rate
-- Dithering: Error Diffusion - option 1, use colored noise, change dither for every frame
-- Trade Quality For Performance:
* optimize subtitle quality for performance instead of quality
* don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected
Settings used for all profiles:
Code:
-- Artifact Removal: 
* Default Debanding Strength: Low
* Strength During Fade In/Out: Medium
-- General Settings:
* Delay playback until render queue is full (& after seeking)
* Use a separate device for presentation
* Use a separate device for DXVA processing
* CPU queue size: 24
* GPU queue size: 24
-- Windowed mode settings:
* Present several frames in advance (16 of them)
* Flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't flush, don't flush
Furthermore I'm using Process Lasso to ensure the power profile to switched to "High Performance" while Media Player Classic is opened (and MPC-HC is already set to use "High" priority, too).

The only thing that really seemed to consistently help was when I was using my GTX 680 and could thus use LAV and the Nvidia API to do hardware frame doubling; though it added its own problems in certain anime.

Last edited by generalmx; 17th November 2014 at 08:15. Reason: Fixed processor spec.
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Old 17th November 2014, 19:54   #2  |  Link
huhn
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your display runs at the wrong refreshrate
Quote:
Display: 23.999897 Hz
1 frame repeat every 1.46 seconds
movie resolution: 720p, usually
VSync Interval: 41.67ms
movie frame interval: 42.00ms
try 60 hz plus smoothmotion for this file. this file is very strange with a refreshrate of 23.810 hz this is not part of the blu ray or dvd spec.

and nearly all movie have a refreshrate of 24000/1001 so the right refreshrate for these is 23p
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Old 17th November 2014, 20:16   #3  |  Link
vivan
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Location: Russia
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this file is very strange with a refreshrate of 23.810 hz this is not part of the blu ray or dvd spec.
It's 23.976 actually. It's just the header is wrong for some reason.
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Old 17th November 2014, 20:18   #4  |  Link
huhn
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so you guess it's a source filter bug?

the repeated frame every 1.5 sec say this file is really running with 23.810 hz
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Old 24th November 2014, 04:43   #5  |  Link
generalmx
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Please note this is talking about an on-going issue with multiple monitors, multiple computers, multiple installations of Windows, etc. dating several years back (and of course, thousands of files). While some combinations of monitors, computers, graphics cards, and codecs have been better than others at dealing with this issue, I don't think it's just an issue with matching refresh rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
your display runs at the wrong refreshrate


try 60 hz plus smoothmotion for this file. this file is very strange with a refreshrate of 23.810 hz this is not part of the blu ray or dvd spec.

and nearly all movie have a refreshrate of 24000/1001 so the right refreshrate for these is 23p
I can't use 60hz with 2160p with this 4K monitor. Also, smooth motion usually makes this problem worse when the refresh rate of the monitor is already approximately at the source refresh rate, partly due to how very taxing smooth motion is at higher resolutions --- it's almost the equiv. of doubling the frame count in terms of processing power required from my experiments.

Anyway this problem was worse with a different 24Hz-capable monitor, and still occurs at 48Hz, while getting significantly worse at 60Hz with or without smooth motion.

Note that the judder isn't bad, it's just noticeable at times --- some files more than others --- and I want to see what I can do about it.
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Old 24th November 2014, 07:23   #6  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalmx View Post
Please note this is talking about an on-going issue with multiple monitors, multiple computers, multiple installations of Windows, etc. dating several years back (and of course, thousands of files). While some combinations of monitors, computers, graphics cards, and codecs have been better than others at dealing with this issue, I don't think it's just an issue with matching refresh rates.
but this is an refreshrate missmatch.
Quote:
VSync Interval: 41.67ms
movie frame interval: 42.00ms
a true 23p file has 41.71 ms and a true 24p file (rare) runs at 41.67 and this file runs at 42 ms. these are extreme huge differences.

as long as you can't run your display with about 42 ms you can't play this file without a judder.

and i know about small refreshrate issue. a repeated frame every 5 min is not totally unnormal but you get one every 1.5 sec because it is a simple miss match.

you can try your luck with a refreshrate tweak tool (at your own risk) or reclock.
Quote:
I can't use 60hz with 2160p with this 4K monitor. Also, smooth motion usually makes this problem worse when the refresh rate of the monitor is already approximately at the source refresh rate, partly due to how very taxing smooth motion is at higher resolutions --- it's almost the equiv. of doubling the frame count in terms of processing power required from my experiments.

Anyway this problem was worse with a different 24Hz-capable monitor, and still occurs at 48Hz, while getting significantly worse at 60Hz with or without smooth motion.

Note that the judder isn't bad, it's just noticeable at times --- some files more than others --- and I want to see what I can do about it.
SM without 50 or more hz is worthless in my eyes.

but SM cost nearly nothing even at 4k doesn't really matter just 4 times of the normal 1080p still a joke even to laczos resizing. if not used with ED of cause.

you shouldn't get any judder with 60 hz and SM on any normal monitor there was something not running properly. i'm not saying SM is perfect but judder is not the problem if your display displays a frame steady any 16.67 ms

you have or had a 48 hz dispaly was that native support? just overriding and forcing it do 48 hz can result in a lot of judder.
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Old 24th November 2014, 18:19   #7  |  Link
generalmx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
but this is an refreshrate missmatch.
a true 23p file has 41.71 ms and a true 24p file (rare) runs at 41.67 and this file runs at 42 ms. these are extreme huge differences.

as long as you can't run your display with about 42 ms you can't play this file without a judder.

and i know about small refreshrate issue. a repeated frame every 5 min is not totally unnormal but you get one every 1.5 sec because it is a simple miss match.
Ah, so perhaps that's what's been happening. I watch a lot of broadcasts-derived Anime and thus it doesn't have to conform to DVD/Blu-ray spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you can try your luck with a refreshrate tweak tool (at your own risk) or reclock.
Yeah if you look at my original post I'm already using ReClock =\ I have it set to "auto", and to assume 24 FPS if it can't detect source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
SM without 50 or more hz is worthless in my eyes.
I have it set to "or an exact multiple if refresh rate", which seems to work best. I just tried it forced on at 24Hz and it looks horrible (though it did technically fix the small judder).

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
but SM cost nearly nothing even at 4k doesn't really matter just 4 times of the normal 1080p still a joke even to laczos resizing. if not used with ED of cause.
I'm even using Mitchell with the FineSharp filter now, since I read recently here that Jinc upscaling can introduce artifacts, and the combo has no noticeable quality loss while also giving reduced resource usage. But I do use ED and both Luma & Chroma upscaling (all of which make significant difference), and all of that is sometimes too taxing with SM also forced on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you shouldn't get any judder with 60 hz and SM on any normal monitor there was something not running properly. i'm not saying SM is perfect but judder is not the problem if your display displays a frame steady any 16.67 ms
Should I trust the refresh rates and vsync intervals listed for my monitors by ReClock and madVR, or should I use a different testing tool? I'm already versed in CRU, which I use to get resolutions like 1080@120Hz on my Seiki 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you have or had a 48 hz dispaly was that native support? just overriding and forcing it do 48 hz can result in a lot of judder.
48Hz is listed under supported in the documentation of the monitors, just not by EDID. When switched to 48Hz the monitor properly displays that it's running at 48Hz. I also test & tune all custom resolutions with lagom.nl (especially the pixel walk test).

Thanks for all the responses by the way
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