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Old 11th August 2002, 10:09   #1  |  Link
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Why I dropped AVI_IO and use VirtualDub VCR now

To get decent quality without getting the HUGE filesizes and processing times when using HUFFYUV, my way to go is the PicVideo MJPEG codec @ quality 19. I used to capture through AVI_IO, and I really have some noise because of this crappy WinTV PCI card (BTW: Hauppauge drivers, I never succeeded in using btwincap, only system crashes).

Somehow I have to get rid of the noise, because I want to encode to DivX5 with reasonable bitrate and good quality. With AVI_IO there's no option to filter the frames before the encoding step (MJPEG). Thus the noise will be encoded, which makes the overall quality worse, and which makes it even harder to get rid of the noise later.

Using VirtualDub VCR (the VirtualDub version with the recording timer, see www.virtualdub.net) I switch on the noise reduction in the video menu (capture mode). This way I get rid of the noise BEFORE encoding to MJPEG, and I encoded films to DivX5 from this MJPEG source without further denoising (no spatial or temporal filters), and I got better quality than ever before!

There were no frame drops due to the extra denoising while capturing on my Athlon 1.3 GHz, Win2000.

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Old 11th August 2002, 11:08   #2  |  Link
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What resolution do you capture ? Full PAL or 1/4 PAL ? I have a very crappy VHS Tape that I want to capture to harddisk, think noise reduction has to be the one to choose, what else is recommended ?

Cheers

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Old 11th August 2002, 18:04   #3  |  Link
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I capture @ 768x576 (full PAL), but what I do is capture from TV source, not VHS.

BaronVlad, in your case you could lower the capture resolution, e.g. to 384x288, although the best way is to capture @ full PAL, then filter and lower the resolution afterwards (512xYYY or even lower). But the high res way is more time&space consuming.

There are a lot of filters available, e.g. spatial & temporal smoothers, sharpeners, color correctors, etc. You have to try which combination and settings work best for you. You might have to deinterlace, too (if you choose the XXXx576 capture resolution, for XXXx288 you don't need to deinterlace). It depends on your source. Make sure you deinterlace correctly...

Hope that helps,

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Old 14th August 2002, 20:15   #4  |  Link
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Thanks for your tips, bb.

I did it this way:
VirtualDub Sync
Capture MJPEG @20
384x574
Vertical reduction 2:1 cubic
Noise Reduction 3 ticks

After the capture:
Divx 2pass
pre processing source strong, gmc...quantizer 8 / 3 etc.
temporal smoother 3 ticks
2nd cleaner optimized with y cropping of 5

What I got was very good quality, for me it was a better view on the TV as the Tape was
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Old 15th August 2002, 07:08   #5  |  Link
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btwincap with a haupuage is a joke and a half

i boldly started out to write a new driver for my wintv card. what i got was something working but the same damn thing with the card...wouldnt work. the point where i threw in the towel is where i guess i fuc't up and wrote something wrong and had to wind up disabling the pci slot the card was in and then windows would boot correctly. problem was my pinnacle pro card kept trying to acess that driver and i for some reason could not uninstall the driver...gave me the off the wall message saying it couldnt locate it although i could see it. just access denied.

ive tried vdub vcr a few times i ran into the reoccurring problem of asynch audio that was really asynch. i cap off cable/sat and after about the 7min mark it just goes asynch.

so i was left with some noise so i had to atleast filter some out some way right. well youve probably already this but what i started out doing was writing a another driver and when i was searching for more stable code for current drivers i say yet another link to a german website decribing DScaler. i ran it into alstalavista's translator and could really get a good translation on the whole thing but what i did get is how it acess the chipset directly.

so i guess you know what im about to say. i started up dscaler, went to the bt848 options and tweaked those as much as possible. couldnt figure out how to capture in dscaler though. i still in fact dont know and would love to know but i never saw a option for it at all.
after closing that up and option vdub i started to do a test cap and then noticed out the settings where still stored how i set them in dscaler. so i said screw this and fired up avi_io which to my luck the settings where still set.

so now i tweak it in dscaler first and wind up clearing ALOT of noise out. then cap in avi_io

if there was soemway i could just cap in avi_io and pass it straight to vdub for use of those filters i would be set. but so far no luck and i have no idea on how to write something like that at all. ive looked at some of the documentation on graph edit but it's not to clear to me so it's not so helpfull(the most helpfull documentation is in german and i just don't know that.)

if you know how to keep synch in vdub please let me know.
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Old 15th August 2002, 09:31   #6  |  Link
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There's an option in VirtualDub somewhere (in capture mode, but I don't remember where) to synchronize video and audio. I can look it up this evening... This option will lead to a few dropped frames due to the way synchronization is handled.

There's another version called VirtualDub_synch which is told to synchronize using an advanced method without dropping frames. But that one is not available with a timer like VirtualDub_VCR AFAIK.

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Old 15th August 2002, 10:07   #7  |  Link
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The VirtualDub_Sync Version that bb meant you can find here:
http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~dittrich/sync/
But it will give you drops to get sync, so your video and audio are sync in the end but depending on your source sometimes many drops, but for me this version works fine, I am sorry it has no Timer, as bb said already.

To get Video and audio sync in "normal" VDub you have two options:
1. The best is to get it sync during recording:
in VirtualDub Capture mode you choose capture -> Timing -> enable "adjust..." Thats it
2. If you forgot this, or if you have asynch movies on your Harddisk, just open it in VDub, set Video -> Frame Rate -> enable "Change so audio and video.." That will give you a new frame rate (i.g. 24.9876 not 25 PAL) and your movies gets sync.

If you want to know more about drops, you can on the top of this site.
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Old 17th August 2002, 02:57   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
But it will give you drops to get sync
No, the normal VDub versions (including VCR) drop frames (or double frames!) to sync the audio. VDub sync resamples the audio to keep the sync without dropping or doubling frames.

I'm very sure because I've captured 60 minutes of full-size HuffYUV recently with VDub sync without a single dropped frame. I've never had that before, it's amazing!

(Unfortunately, like bb said, there's no VDub VCR&Sync - I'm still hoping someone will soon combine those two to a new superior capture solution )
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Old 17th August 2002, 07:21   #9  |  Link
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Oh, thanks for clearing the situation, it is strange, in my testruns i had many drops when using the sync version and audio was sync in the end, so I thought the frames were dropped to get the crappy tape sync on the computer.

So why I had these ? Is it only because of the bad source quality ?
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Old 17th August 2002, 11:43   #10  |  Link
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hi

i use virtualdub_sync as well and i get only 1 or 2 dropped frames over 2 hours,but i have to keep the recording level down really low becase if the audio is to loud i get a "clicking" sound, i think its as the audio waveform is being clipped. I checked the audio before mp3 encoding and the clicking sounds are nothing to do with the encoding proccess. anyone else had this problem ?

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Old 17th August 2002, 11:56   #11  |  Link
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hi

ok since last post i found update to virtualdub_sync that address that last problem
"- bug: overstearing audio produces spikes in the src-filter - fixed in 1_01c"

thanks for a great forum

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Old 17th August 2002, 13:21   #12  |  Link
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BaronVlad, how many frame drops do you get with the normal VDub?

I'm asking because when I'm recording to 44.1 kHz, my soundcard is running out of sync massively (like 1 framedrop every 5 seconds in normal VDub) and this is so strong that even VDub sync cannot correct it totally (much less drops, but still a few).

When using 48 kHz, the sound is almost in sync without correction, but I still get around 15 drops in 60 minutes (btw. it's not even framedrops, it's DOUBLED frames, as I recently found out).
With VDub_sync and 48 kHz, there are no more drops or doubled frames at all.
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Old 18th August 2002, 10:50   #13  |  Link
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Re: Why I dropped AVI_IO and use VirtualDub VCR now

Quote:
Originally posted by bb
To get decent quality without getting the HUGE filesizes and processing times when using HUFFYUV, my way to go is the PicVideo MJPEG codec @ quality 19.
How big will a one minute capture be if I CAP at 720 x 480?

PicVideo MJPEG CODEC

Last edited by 1loser; 18th August 2002 at 11:01.
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Old 18th August 2002, 12:23   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaronVlad
Oh, thanks for clearing the situation, it is strange, in my testruns i had many drops when using the sync version and audio was sync in the end, so I thought the frames were dropped to get the crappy tape sync on the computer.

So why I had these ? Is it only because of the bad source quality ?
Hello Tim!

It can be many different things! First, be sure to set VD_sync the way the author has written (audio buffer size etc.), tune your PC etc. But as you've wrote the FAQ, I think you've done that .

Reasons for framedrops with VD_sync:

1) Soundcard (Your soundcard has many "fluctuations" in the sample frequency and the VD audio re-sampling algorithm cannot fix that, without adding audible errros. Therefore a frame (or more) is dropped)

2) Bad source (Says it all, possible solutions: realtime cropping (if you have a BT card try to crop a few pixels from the vertical res.); RT noise reduction; better VCR with TBC, picture enhancement etc. and so on)

3) Unoptimized PC (programs running in background, slow hardware, Windows installation with much garbage etc.)

4) Believing what some suckers like "Ookami" write (this alone let the dropped frame ratio increase by 3,57689 %)

Always be sure to check these things before bugging Andreas with questions (like I did )...

Hope I understood everything right... Andreas, if you are reading this, please add or correct something. Thanks.

P.s.: Tim, have you got my reply-mail regarding the FAQ merging?

Cheers,

Mijo.
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Old 18th August 2002, 13:37   #15  |  Link
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Oh Guys...
writing a FAQ but being too stupid to setup the own computer
Now I have a green movie, that very nice...arghh
But I could fix this
Think it is a bad compilation that I have:
WD 60 AB (Cache only 2 MB @5400 U/min)
bad source (no cable TV)
Sound on Board (Epox 8k7a)
Athlon 1,4 should be ok

I have Chunk size 1MB, chunks in Buffer 15, Audio Buffer Size 36000, no background programs running, HD defragmented, Audio on 48 hz now, I tried my ATI Radeon 7200 Card (connected with VCR via Cinch, think I have to buy myself a longer cable for SVHS !!!) Res 720*576 MJPEG 19 Yuy2. I had a testrun with 5 drops in one minute (with the newest syncversion) Thats too much !!!
Normally I capture Huffy 384*288 with VDub VCR via WinTV, I have about 15 or 20 drops an hour.

I will try some testruns with different codecs, resolutions, Video in of the Radeon and WinTV.

@Mijo: Yes I got your Mail, I am sorry I didnt answer, but my girlfriend was angry with me and I had to do "some testruns" with her, means no time to capture, no time for FAQ, much time for her, but after writing this, I will have a look into it. You will get a Mail in a an hour or so. Ok ?
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Old 18th August 2002, 15:10   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaronVlad
Oh Guys...
writing a FAQ but being too stupid to setup the own computer
Now I have a green movie, that very nice...arghh
But I could fix this
Think it is a bad compilation that I have:
WD 60 AB (Cache only 2 MB @5400 U/min)
bad source (no cable TV)
Sound on Board (Epox 8k7a)
Athlon 1,4 should be ok

I have Chunk size 1MB, chunks in Buffer 15, Audio Buffer Size 36000, no background programs running, HD defragmented, Audio on 48 hz now, I tried my ATI Radeon 7200 Card (connected with VCR via Cinch, think I have to buy myself a longer cable for SVHS !!!) Res 720*576 MJPEG 19 Yuy2. I had a testrun with 5 drops in one minute (with the newest syncversion) Thats too much !!!
Normally I capture Huffy 384*288 with VDub VCR via WinTV, I have about 15 or 20 drops an hour.

I will try some testruns with different codecs, resolutions, Video in of the Radeon and WinTV.

@Mijo: Yes I got your Mail, I am sorry I didnt answer, but my girlfriend was angry with me and I had to do "some testruns" with her, means no time to capture, no time for FAQ, much time for her, but after writing this, I will have a look into it. You will get a Mail in a an hour or so. Ok ?
5 drops/ minute seems too much. Did you tried a test capture (F7) before the real captureing (F6)? That could help...

What is your source? Tuner? VHS tape?

-@5400 U/min

This could be the problem. Have you tried the VD benchmark?

-email:

"Testruns" Stick with your girlfriend and leave us "no life" geeks where we belong . Hihi... No, don't hurry... The last few days I'm waay too much on the internet, and the weather is getting nice here so I'll change my Internet behaviour soon.

Cheers,

Mijo.
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Old 18th August 2002, 15:40   #17  |  Link
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@Mijo:

Hehe...After some testruns with my Girlfriend, I can tell you:
Zero Drops

FAQ: Check your EMail

My Computer:
I think I have done most of what you told me, but I will check it again now and tell you about my results. And if all of that is not working, I will capture MPEG2 with my ATI Prog, there I dont see the drops and can work with GKnot afterwards. I only have to fix this buggy sound

Edit:
My source is the Tuner of my VCR, video as well as audio

Edit2:
Ok, new resolution is 704*576 audio 48 hz, chunk size 512-1MB with 15 chunks, about 5 and a half minutes without any drops after that nearly more drops than capt frames. Strange...
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Old 18th August 2002, 19:43   #18  |  Link
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way off topic...

Quote:
Originally posted by BaronVlad
Hehe...After some testruns with my Girlfriend, I can tell you:
Zero Drops
hey Baron, do you mean really zero drops - 0 - !! ZERO?? C'mon she isn't that ugly
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Old 18th August 2002, 20:43   #19  |  Link
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[off topic mode on]

@Sill: I didnt mean whether I dropped her or not...
...I meant something like no probs, no system crash, everything alright again -> zero drops...and as you know, she is right the opposite of ugly

[/off topic mode off]
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Old 18th August 2002, 20:53   #20  |  Link
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sorry guys, last time ot here...

Quote:
Originally posted by BaronVlad
@Sill: I didnt mean whether I dropped her or not...
dropped her?? I meant on her or even in her
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