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Old 22nd February 2013, 19:30   #17661  |  Link
huhn
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i can use jinc 3 ar on my hd4000 but only for luma but with lanczos for chroma.
only tested with 23p
resizing isn't always about better it's all about taste.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 19:38   #17662  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I see some very noticeable "flickering" in some scenes with smooth motion (23,976fps@60Hz).
Is this to be expected?
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Old 22nd February 2013, 20:19   #17663  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
With my HD4000, I can use the "high" preset (bicubic / Lanczos) w/o any problem.
Is bicubic better than softcubic ? There is no much topic / forum where guys talk about the differences between MadVR algorithms.
There have been many pages discussing the resize algorithms in this thread but given the page count I understand being unable to find them now. From what I have seen a lot of the advice on the net about MadVR resize is from before both Jinc and anti-ringing. I like that chart, I watched as some thought was put into it and it is current.

With anti-ringing I like bicubic better than softcubic. From what I remember, softcubic doesn't use the part of bicubic that "undoes" some of the blur but causes ringing. As madishi's anti-ringing works so well there is no reason to use softcubic now imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
I've got a low profile graphic card not yet installed on my passive HTPC (Radeon HD6450). Do you think this card will able me to run Jinc 3 ?
I don't think so, that is a very low end card.

I hope it is a DDR5 one, if it uses DDR3 it is probably slower than the HD4000. It will not be a significant upgrade from the HD4000. It looks about the same performance.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 20:29   #17664  |  Link
trip_let
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Depends on how much you're scaling by, and material.

If there are sharp chroma transitions, you're scaling like 360p or lower to 1080p or higher, differences will definitely be noticeable for some luma upscaling algorithms. Otherwise, to some extent, people are really sweating the small stuff, which may not really make much of a difference in practice. Or it could be next to invisible. IMHO softcubic is better for lower-quality material that may have artifacting and other problems already. You're blurring out problems as well as details. For higher-quality content, I'd take a sharper algorithm, both luma and chroma.

I kind of like the chart as well as a general guideline, but I don't like ringing and would never use anything sharper than bicubic 75 on luma (and maybe not even that much) without anti-ringing. Depends on the material though, as always.

I don't think any HD 6450 uses GDDR5.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 20:40   #17665  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Technically the FRC algorithm simulates a display with infinite refresh rate. Which means that every video frame is displayed exactly when the timestamps ask for it. Consequently the motion smoothness depends on proper timestamps. If the timestamps (or audio clock) contain jitter, the playback will contain jitter, too. So even if Reclock might not be needed to avoid frame drops/repeats, anymore, when using madVR's new FRC algorithm, you might still want to use Reclock, because it provides a stable and reliable audio clock with very low jitter
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
@Niyawa: Reclock is recommended to provide stable audio clock and timestamps. No need to change speed, but it's your decision really ;p
I'm really skeptical about this. The good old default DirectSound audio renderers provide a clock which reflects the audio clock. It's designed that way because audio drops/skips are much more noticeable than video drops/skips. Aside from features like WASAPI, I really don't see the point in using ReClock in audio clock slaved mode. The clock provided by ReClock in slave mode should behave in exactly the same way as the clock provided by the default audio renderers.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 20:52   #17666  |  Link
Asmodian
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@trip_let
Personally I don't think using a blurry resize is the best way to PP low quality video but to each their own. I just watch the blocks and mosquito noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip_let View Post
I don't think any HD 6450 uses GDDR5.
It may be discontinued but:
Radeon HD 6450 512MB 64-bit DDR5

But you are right, chances are adhara's is a DDR3 card.

Last edited by Asmodian; 22nd February 2013 at 21:01. Reason: added @
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Old 22nd February 2013, 21:07   #17667  |  Link
adhara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
@trip_let
Personally I don't think using a blurry resize is the best way to PP low quality video but to each their own. I just watch the blocks and mosquito noise.



It may be discontinued but:
Radeon HD 6450 512MB 64-bit DDR5

But you are right, chances are adhara's is a DDR3 card.

Yes my Sapphire Radeon HD6450 (40$) is a 1GB DDR3.
IMO best fore me is to wait for the new IGP (Hasewell GT3).
I read it will be 3x more powerful than the HD4000.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 21:08   #17668  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
It ignores multiples though... If you have 23.976 fps and a refresh rate of 95.904Hz or 119.88Hz, FRC is always turned on with the first option. Same with 59.94 fps & 119.88Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevilne View Post
Hmm, when playing back 30 fps on 60 it enables frc with first frc option, is that intended?
Can you two please retest with the next build? I've added some logging to find out why FRC gets activated in your case. I wasn't able to reproduce the problem here. The log should help to get to the bottom of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Itīs a PC recording (50p), please take a quick look at my sample, as itīs very hard to explain. Itīs definitely smoother than non-FRC, but because of that wobble effect itīs very annoying to watch. Use fullscreen and focus on the edges of moving objects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
@madshi
I have one channel on DVB with news bar on bottom, and with smooth motion enabled text are blinking a little, looks better without smooth motion. I have tested on 59.94Hz.
Take a look: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16282309/PSN.ts (top bar - black letters)
Anything can be done or it's how it suppose to look like.
Yes, I agree that these 2 have problems with FRC on. From the tests I've done so far it seems that 50fps@60Hz seems to be the hardest thing to make look good. I'm not sure if I'll be able to fix that. I'll think about it. I think the problem is caused by some frames being sharp (almost no blending) while others are soft (near 50%/50% blending). Maybe artificially softening the sharp frames could remove the blinking effect. Of course that would result in lost sharpness...

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
Madshi, good work as awlays, but I don't like the motion smoother for everything. It's not as bad as the interpolators, but it still looks too much like video to me.
It does not artificially smooth motion. It just displays motion true to the source. If you think that motion is too smooth when using madVR's FRC then the only explanation would be that you've been tortured so long with bad motion judder that you can't enjoy proper playback now, anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
I'll have to test more sources, but it does not do The Wire, which I ripped from dvd and converted to 23p x264 files any favors at all. Some blu-rays look good and others don't.
Those that don't look good to your eyes: Why don't they look good? Is the motion too smooth? If so, then you need to shake your head and get rid of years of judder torturing. If you see new artifacts (like flickering, ghosting, whatever) caused by madVR's FRC then please let me know. In that case a sample might help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation, now it makes sense. I have checked that registry path and for me it only contains these entries:

(Standard)
LastSettingsKey
Settings (shouldnīt this be a subkey? itīs a binary value with "0 0 0 0")
ShowOsd
ShowOsd_

So it seems there is something definitely going wrong if madVR doesnīt correctly write the settings there. Just FYI, I have full access rights to that folder!

EDIT: It looks like madVR doesnīt create a Settings subkey but instead it creates a Settings binary value (see above) and thus madVR cannot store and read-back any values. Should be easy to fix for you!
It's supposed to be a binary value. The contents of that binary value should be identical to the contents of the settings.bin file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
Yes I might try that, either doubling with SVP to ORIGINAL * 2 = 47.95~, or ORIGINAL * 5 / 2 = 59.94~ and then use madVR to help with the slight difference between that and my display.
If you let SVP upinterpolate to 59.94 then I'd rather suggest to use Reclock to get rid of frame drops/repeats instead of madVR's FRC because using FRC for that would reduce video sharpness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
In this case can I clarify that

1) madVR listens to the upstream filter, ie ffdshow outputting 48hz for example?
madVR listens to what the upstream filter reports in its pin connection information. I don't know if ffdshow writes the correct information in there when using SVP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
2) madVR smooth set to "only if there would be motion judder without it..." should help with the slight differences between refresh rate and output rate even if its tiny like 0.06~hz difference? Thanks again.
madVR set to that will disable smooth motion FRC when your source is 59.940 and your refresh rate is 59.940, too. If you force smooth motion on, it will take care of any small or big Hz differences, but if the source frame rate is near to the refresh rate (or even higher) there will be a visible sharpness loss. FRC is best used if the display refresh rate is noticeably higher than the movie framerate. The higher the better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I am using the new FSE path, and was set to 8 queues. Even at 16, I'm still seeing the same thing.

The image is somewhat smoother, but still judders, and has noticeable ghosting from the frame blending. It reminds me of the old NTSC > PAL transfers we used to get back in the 90s, but not quite as bad.

I was checking with the Casino Royale Blu-ray, as that is my go-to disc for testing anything, as it includes scenes for just about anything you need to evaluate on a display/video processing.

As I said though, maybe I am just really sensitive to it, or maybe it depends on how good the motion handling of your display is. If your display is already blurring everything with motion, maybe you won't notice the blended frames.
You seem to be dead set on that what you're seeing is a general problem with the FRC algorithm. I'd say the chances of that are rather small. I think it's very likely that on your PC for whatever reason the blended frames are shown longer than they should be shown, because that would exactly explain what you're seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I think I prefer the judder to less judder plus ghosting.
Of course. But with a properly working smooth motion FRC algorithm you should see neither judder nor ghosting compared to true 24fps@24Hz playback. Of course FRC isn't perfect, but it should achieve at least 95% of the motion smoothness of 24fps@24Hz without any visible ghosting during playback.

Of course if you record the frames that madVR draws (e.g. with Fraps) you can see the blended frames and they look awful. But in motion they should not be visible - unless your GPU shows them for 2 vsyncs instead of 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Sorry if this has been asked already, but why does smooth motion conversion not work if display is at 60Hz and video has 29.97 or 59.94fps?
It "works" but it's not activated by default with the "if there would be judder otherwise" option because the framerate and refresh rate are reasonable close in this situation, so there's a frame drop/repeat only once in a while. I've thought about whether I should auto activate it for these situations, too, but I decided against it because it does visibly reduce sharpness if movie framerate and display refresh rate are close. You can force FRC on manually by pressing a key shortcut, or you can choose a different FRC configuration to force it on for these situations, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n3w813 View Post
By default, the top 2 options in the "trade quality for performance" are checked. Should I uncheck both?
If your GPU is fast enough: Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Would it be possible to add an option to temporarily disable FRC during seek as well as window->fullscreen, and delay re-enabling by a couple seconds to allow the render queue and vsync readings to stabilize (preferably independent from the existing delay playback options). Something like this seems like it's needed to avoid the temporary FRC instability and severe blurring artifacts in these cases.
Let me first fix the bugs before even thinking about such a workaround. Maybe the bugfixes will already take care of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by webs0r View Post
In the registry the Settings value exists but it has no value (regedit says zero-length binary value).
Weird!! What happens if you remove that registry value and change settings again? Is it being created again with zero size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
madshi, nothing new to 0.86.0 but for me, even with delay playback until render queue is full checked, I usually get 1-2 frame drops on playback start, or if I have mpc set to repeat a sequence, after the sequence restarts, I can see the queues drop to 0 and I again will get 1-2 drops. Just thought I would mention it as I had a clip on repeat this evening testing something, and noticed lots and lots of frame drops in the stats, all coming from the each start of the sequence. I'm not sure if madVR waits for all queues to fill up before starting playback or just some?
It waits for the render queue to be full.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blight View Post
Madshi, FRC's overhead is enough to make it detrimental on low-end cards (nvidia gt520 for example), is it possible to make FRC smart enough to auto-disable itself (even when enabled in the settings) if it detects GPU loads of 99%?
As you are probably aware, with FRC enabled at 100% GPU load frames appear out of order.
The out of order problem is a bug and will be fixed. madVR currently does not know the GPU load. Disabling FRC temporarily is a bit of a problem because it totally changes the presentation timing mode. Everytime I switch FRC on/off there can be a small "jump" in the image. So I'd prefer to not enable/disable it all the time. Let's first fix the bugs and then check how it's then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotoles View Post
Now here's my doubt - is this a LAV issue, such as: it doesn't feed the subtitle stream correctly to the madVR renderer; or is it a madVR issue, such as: madVR isn't compatible yet with the way LAV handles subtitle streams?

Thank you all for your attention, and have a great day
madVR is not responsible (or even able) to draw the subtitles at the moment. So the issue can't be with madVR, I think. Try asking nevcairiel about this in the LAV thread. He might need a sample of your DVD (menu).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
so how is it supposed to look? bascially that way that the test pattern looks about half fine, but that any 24fps real movie content should look about as smooth on 60Hz now as it does on a native 24Hz TV?
madVR doesn't magically turn 24fps content into 60fps content. It should still look like 24fps content, so it's not perfectly fluid, as true 60fps content is. But it should not contain 3:2 pulldown judder. It should be as smooth as 24fps with a native 24Hz TV is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
madshi should make this clear in big red letters, judging from how many people misinterpret this
Yeah. Well, I tried to explain it in the v0.86.0 release notes, but it seems to be a hard concept to grasp...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
I'm very interested to hear nevcairiel's, madshi's, and everyone else's opinions on frame interpolation (SVP) vs frame blending (FRC). I know this is a subjective question but I'm only looking for opinions.
No, *please* don't start OT discussions in this thread. madVR does not do frame interpolation, so discussing whether you like frame interpolation does not belong here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
Doesn't seem to work very well with interlaced 1080i 25fps TV recordings I have, it introduces a lot of judder. 1080p@ 25fps works great though as does 576i 25fps material.

On a second computer, I can't get it to work without bad judder with a 24fps movie either, but I am not sure if thats because the video card is so low end (Radeon HD5570) or not. What kind of requirements are needed?
It should work fine on a 5570 if you don't set the scaling algorithms too high. You may want to check if the queues are all full. Also make sure the queues are not too small. Finally, try again with the next build.

Can I have a sample of that 25i content which doesn't look well for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
Here in France, the TV rate is 50Hz and mine (Pioneer Kuro) is fully 24 Hz compatible.
Is madVR FRC usefull in my own case ?
The best solution is probably to set your TV to the refresh rate which matches your source framerate. So for TV stuff set your TV to 50Hz. If your TV can display that with smooth motion (not all TVs can) there's no need to use madVR's FRC algorithm. The FRC is really meant to be used for displays which can't handle certain refresh rates well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cca View Post
I did get a debug log, not sure where to put it though, it's too big for pastebin :/. Will try the older madVR now.

EDIT: madVR 0.85.8 works perfectly fine, no freezes. Debug log at http://www.mediafire.com/?8bccowyzwncogr5

EDIT 2: To be completely clear, this only happens in FSE mode, if I stick to windowed mode it never freezes.
Thanks, should be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Will test if I still experience my frame drop issue with 60fps videos and provide logs if true.

Edit: Issue still exists, here is the debug log:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ikqkbswscavjjay
Thanks, that log helped. The issue is caused by jitter in the audio clock. However, I hope to have worked around it. Please retry with the next build. If the problem still occurs, please upload another log. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I see some very noticeable "flickering" in some scenes with smooth motion (23,976fps@60Hz).
Is this to be expected?
Some samples would help. The more the better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
I'm really skeptical about this. The good old default DirectSound audio renderers provide a clock which reflects the audio clock. It's designed that way because audio drops/skips are much more noticeable than video drops/skips. Aside from features like WASAPI, I really don't see the point in using ReClock in audio clock slaved mode. The clock provided by ReClock in slave mode should behave in exactly the same way as the clock provided by the default audio renderers.
The problem is that the good old default renderers do not interpolate the clock, so basically the clock doesn't move forward smoothly. Instead it stands still, then jumps when an audio block finished playing. This results in jitter during playback. I think Reclock does this better. But I don't really know for sure.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 21:13   #17669  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
As madshi already commented on before, screenshots will always look rather bad with blending, you need to compare and judge from moving images, and not from individual screenshots, so these serve no real purpose, but spread FUD, imho.
Well that's exactly what I see when things are moving, so I'm not sure how that is "FUD".

It probably has more to do with how your display handles image persistence than its motion resolution though - you will probably only see it on LCDs with scanning backlights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Its not meant to make 24p content as smooth as 60fps content, its just meant to remove motion judder. Its not a frame interpolator, it does not invent new frames to create more fluid motion, it just presents the existing frame in a way that avoids any motion judder.
My issue is that I still see judder, not that I am expecting it to interpolate. At the end of the day, I will be outputting 24Hz anyway, but I am not seeing the results as intended at 60Hz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Personally I hate the blurring that happens when the camera pans. I haven't tried SVP before but as DragonQ has pointed out, films will be moving towards higher and higher fps as are refresh rates already. In the next decade we'll most likely start to see and get used to the new normal standards.
Motion blur when the camera pans is typically caused by the shutter speed used - switching to 48fps doesn't guarantee that this will change at all. 48fps does allow for higher shutter speeds to be used, but does not require it. All a higher framerate guarantees is smoother motion and less judder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post
If film gets a new standard for framerate, I hope it's 30 rather than 48.
I would hope for 30 or 60. I don't want to be buying a new TV until 4K OLED is here and affordable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
so I'm back on CRT FTW: dead silent, 20K:1 CR, 96Hz support, abysmal black level, how hard was it huh.
Be thankful that you can't hear over 15kHz then! I would also suggest 72Hz if you can tolerate the flicker.

And if we get enough fine-grained control for madVR LUTs in the future, you can do some neat tricks with CRT for "infinite" contrast.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 21:27   #17670  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.86.1 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: saving settings failed when madVR couldn't write to its own folder
* fixed: sometimes old frames were flashing up when using smooth motion
* fixed: seeking in exclusive mode could result in a freeze
* fixed: high bitdepth content showed artifacts when using DXVA scaling
* smooth motion FRC is now auto turned off for DVD menus
* improved exclusive mode presentation timing with jittery audio clock a bit
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Old 22nd February 2013, 21:53   #17671  |  Link
adhara
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madshi, you're a wizard
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:01   #17672  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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2 questions:

1. How do I fix the BTB (grey desktop) problem that the Intel intergrated Graphics 2000 has?

2. How can I make a 23,976Hz custom profile? The default 23Hz profile is 23,972 and I want to aim for 23,976XXX. When I choose Custom Resolutions I can only fill in round number and no numbers like 23,976, only 23/24/25 etc.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:09   #17673  |  Link
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[removed] Okay after I updated to 0.86.1 the bug disappeared, whatever it was causing it is gone now.

Also, could you take a look at this little fellow post. He seems to be having problems with exclusive mode off (windowed I believe) and when you see the youtube video he posted, it kinda reminds me of tearing but I'm not sure. Apparently he changed his monitor refresh rate to 24 hz to match the 24p video to eliminate judder but got that problem instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
I've got a low profile graphic card not yet installed on my passive HTPC (Radeon HD6450). Do you think this card will able me to run Jinc 3 ?
I made that chart with a GTX 260 in mind, since it's the "lowest" card I've found that is able to play with Jinc (as long it's not 60p content). This is also information I got from this forum so it can't (or shouldn't) be wrong. The only way to really know is for you to trying and watching for yourself.

You also remembered me to put that in my signature to share with others, not many people are aware of that thing.
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madVR scaling algorithms chart - based on performance x quality | KCP - A (cute) quality-oriented codec pack

Last edited by Niyawa; 22nd February 2013 at 23:35. Reason: Update
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:30   #17674  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It "works" but it's not activated by default with the "if there would be judder otherwise" option because the framerate and refresh rate are reasonable close in this situation, so there's a frame drop/repeat only once in a while. I've thought about whether I should auto activate it for these situations, too, but I decided against it because it does visibly reduce sharpness if movie framerate and display refresh rate are close. You can force FRC on manually by pressing a key shortcut, or you can choose a different FRC configuration to force it on for these situations, too.
Ok. Well, then I will stick with display mode change for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks, that log helped. The issue is caused by jitter in the audio clock. However, I hope to have worked around it. Please retry with the next build. If the problem still occurs, please upload another log. Thanks.
Looks good, thanks. No more dropped frames.
Will record a longer 60fps video and test that one too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Some samples would help. The more the better...
Sample 1 still looks very unsmooth with FRC. I can't say for sure if maybe this has to be since I can't watch it in native 24Hz atm.
Download:
http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/7254850/file.html

With sample 2, watch for the dust between the trees. It looks very nervous/flickering with FRC. Without not. imho clearly an unwanted side effect.
Download:
http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/94753150/file.html
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:48   #17675  |  Link
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Can confirm madVR is writing settings to the registry correctly now.
The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:52   #17676  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Can you two please retest with the next build? I've added some logging to find out why FRC gets activated in your case. I wasn't able to reproduce the problem here. The log should help to get to the bottom of this.
Debug Log for 23.976fps @ 95.904Hz with FRC Option 1

Same issue occurs on both Windows 7 & Windows 8.

[Edit: Below are a few more with 119.88Hz for good measure]

madVR TestPatternSource 23, 24, 59, 60 @ 119.88Hz

Deinterlacing to 59.94fps @ 119.88Hz

IVTC starting with 2:2 (29.97fps) and going to 3:2 (23.976fps) near the end @ 119.88Hz

Last edited by cyberbeing; 22nd February 2013 at 23:13.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 22:59   #17677  |  Link
JarrettH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
Can confirm madVR is writing settings to the registry correctly now.
The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?
Noticed this too. About 8-10 ms increase on an Intel HD 2000 (not my main computer)

Last edited by JarrettH; 22nd February 2013 at 23:11.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 23:30   #17678  |  Link
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I'm sorry for the OT question madshi.

Thanks for the fix regarding the exclusive mode freezes in v0.86.1!
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Old 23rd February 2013, 07:47   #17679  |  Link
glc650
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Hello,

I've seen a few recommendations now to use ReClock with FRC.

So what settings are needed to make ReClock compatible with FRC? Just slave the reference clock to audio and lock the speed at original?

Thanks,

->g.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 08:38   #17680  |  Link
bugmen0t
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@glc650
ReClock is fully compatible with FRC.
The settings you suggest will turn off ReClock's audio clock corrections. Why would you want that? (The only benefit then over other audio renderers would be having WASAPI.)
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