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Old 25th July 2012, 07:24   #21  |  Link
jmac698
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Here's a good thread on the wavy lines issue
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...-needed-anyway

seems the jvc vcr's with built-in line TBC work quite well, which doesn't help you, but also camcorders.

Last edited by jmac698; 25th July 2012 at 11:57.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 12:47   #22  |  Link
Emulgator
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I have a ADVC-300, it does not offer any TBC tweaking.
Moreover, picture stability could indeed be worsened if any TBC from some feeding deck
(in my case for instance Panasonic NV-HS950) is on as well.
Different later decks (for instance the Panasonic DMR-EX95V) can have much better internal TBC than the former.
It seems as if the playback deck has indeed the most influence, I could not mend anything seriously with the ADVC-300.
In the beginning I even used the built-in Hardware filtering.
Then I began to learn AviSynth, and from then on I found it better to leave the built-in filters bypassed,
especially when attempting IVTC after capturing.
The only thing when capturing with ADVC-300 is that I might lift blacklevels and soften white peaks for clamped recordings.
In the end I will look for capturing uncompressed, because DCT blocks can be visible in noisy blacks...
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Old 5th August 2012, 21:46   #23  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
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I found my way here, hopefully you guys can help me decide something

I did tons of capturing in the old days with my BT848 Card which worked quite well then. I have a bunch of capture cards at my hand and want to capture VHS Footage (JVC S-VHS TBC Deck) and Hi8 (Sony regular VCR Deck...). Which one would be capable of the best picture quality (in means of quality of the ADC, FIltering inside the Card, TBC Features in the card, etc..):

- Vidac Vmagic (only does MPEG2 in hardware, but the ADC was very nice back then).
- Recent Philips analog TV Card with some philips chip (people told me I could get RGB/YU/etc out of this, it has some TBC features built in and the ADC was better than BT848..)
- old BT848 from Pinnacel (PCTV Pro)
- Miro DC30 (former semi-Pro Card, I guess MJPEG 3:1 was the best-..).
- Canopus Advc-300 (DV only I guess?)

Assuming I want to filter in Software afterward, Is capturing in YU with the old BT848 still the best way? MOst of the footage came from Cams back then.
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Old 6th August 2012, 00:37   #24  |  Link
juhok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
The only thing when capturing with ADVC-300 is that I might lift blacklevels and soften white peaks for clamped recordings.
In the end I will look for capturing uncompressed, because DCT blocks can be visible in noisy blacks...
ADVC-300 does the adjustments after AD so you might as well do those in avisynth also.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Moreover, picture stability could indeed be worsened if any TBC from some feeding deck
(in my case for instance Panasonic NV-HS950) is on as well.
What the..? The TBC in NV-HS950 is the only thing really doing any correction to the visible video in your setup. ADVC-300 does zip to the time base errors in the analog recording. Internal TBC in Panasonic VCR's have been excellent since atleast FS-200(oldest I got). Maybe your HS950 or ADVC is broken or something else weird is happening.

Last edited by juhok; 6th August 2012 at 00:53.
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Old 6th August 2012, 00:42   #25  |  Link
juhok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post
Which one would be capable of the best picture quality (in means of quality of the ADC, FIltering inside the Card, TBC Features in the card, etc..):

- Vidac Vmagic (only does MPEG2 in hardware, but the ADC was very nice back then).
- Recent Philips analog TV Card with some philips chip (people told me I could get RGB/YU/etc out of this, it has some TBC features built in and the ADC was better than BT848..)
- old BT848 from Pinnacel (PCTV Pro)
- Miro DC30 (former semi-Pro Card, I guess MJPEG 3:1 was the best-..).
- Canopus Advc-300 (DV only I guess?)
Of these I've used ADVC-300(not much because it sucked) and BT848(a lot). I'd sell the overprized ADVC-300 and use the money to buy modern lossless card + frame sync. For example Blackmagic with analog inputs + TBC-1000. If you want filtering and TBC(framesync) in your CAPTURE DEVICE, there doesn't exist overall good solution that I've heard of.

edit: Maybe I dismissed BT848 too fast, it's still lossless and pretty good ADC. Needs framesync for VHS. Or the Philips if it's better(?).

Last edited by juhok; 6th August 2012 at 01:02.
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Old 6th August 2012, 08:52   #26  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
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Thanx for your feedback
Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
Of these I've used ADVC-300(not much because it sucked) and BT848(a lot).
Damn... The more I read here, the more I find pople saying that the ADVC-300 isn´t good at all... Too bad, I trusted a bunch of people giving the Canopus Thingy a high reputation on its ADC and TBC Features...
Quote:
I'd sell the overprized ADVC-300 and use the money to buy modern lossless card + frame sync. For example Blackmagic with analog inputs + TBC-1000. If you want filtering and TBC(framesync) in your CAPTURE DEVICE, there doesn't exist overall good solution that I've heard of.
I´ll check on these, maybe I can find some gear.. I read blackmagic PCI Cards have 10Bit Capturing Capability on SDI - this gets me thinking - Do all the card have the same bit-depth whilke capturing? Maybe there is a nice overview somewhere? I am thinking in terms of Audio-Producing where headroom and the higer S/N ratio of 24 Bit over 16 Bit are a nice "feature" for recording - maybe there are some video-cards with better ADC??

Comparing the Blackmagic to the old DC-30: Does anyone know how they compare?
Quote:
edit: Maybe I dismissed BT848 too fast, it's still lossless and pretty good ADC. Needs framesync for VHS. Or the Philips if it's better(?).
Scharfis Brain postet out that the Philips is better - althpough he referred to capturng VHS (He needs the Comp filter). I have a S-VHS System which already seperates Y/C, so maybe this is not relevant for me? Is the philips better after all?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...598#post876598
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Old 6th August 2012, 13:41   #27  |  Link
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You can check BM specs from their website http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/

I have experience with Studio version, but Intensity and it's different revisions should be comparable.

BM Analog SD capture can be chosen between 8bit or 10bit 4:2:2. The comb filter on composite is bad/non-existent. Frame Sync is required for bad analog sources like VHS or Video8 (there are rare cases where semipro deck has builtin FS but I've only ever seen one Hi8 deck like this). I never found reason to use 10bit for VHS/other crappy inputs (and the Frame Sync inbetween VHS and capture card is bottleneck with 8bit, also propably the TBC inside decks is 8bit also).

I never did really in-depth testing with BM ADC quality. It looks good to me (done Betamax, VHS, SVHS, Video8, Hi8, DVD-player, BetacamSP, etc), it's ADC is pretty much 1:1 compared to digital source of the same file (and here the playback device plays a role too so slight variations come from that direction also). With BT848 I had noticeable (over/under)sharpness / color issues when doing same comparison. Philips stuff - cannot say. If you already got the Philips, and it's good and it works and it seems OK to your subjective eyes, why not. "It's just VHS".
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Old 6th August 2012, 15:13   #28  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh110 View Post
Thanks very much for all the ideas guys.

I've found that both the Panasonic ES15 and EZ49 DVD-Recorders fail to correct line-timing errors.
The ES15 is supposed to work very well. Ashamed to admit I still haven't got around to using mine. But from what I've read: Have you tried all the different inputs? I'm not sure that the TBC gets applied to all of them. Have you got it disabled in the menus? There are various amounts of filtering available.

Some DV camcorders have very forgiving analogue inputs which include decent TBCs (though most in Europe don't have any analogue inputs at all).

The Canopus ADVC110 is a great analogue > DV capturing device - it does it very cleanly, but with no enhancement. It won't make bad signals better. The ADVC300 includes some not particularly useful enhancement that some people claim isn't entirely defeatable. Neither is designed for loop-through enhancement AFAICT.

First thing first: try again with the ES15. Check the menus, and try each input. Use it as a loop-through device to something else - it's not (generally) a very reliable DVD recorder as it gets older, because the DVD-R mechanism files.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 9th August 2012, 01:12   #29  |  Link
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Thanks David.
Alas my ES15 has died: so I can't perform those tests. I bought the EZ49 to replace it.
I would've captured the Betamax via the AV2 SCART input, and Video 8 via the AV3 phono input. Do you happen to know which input(s) the TBC worked with?

What I can say is that the EZ49 is very similar to the ES15, and the EZ49 doesn't seem to correct line-jitter or reduce mosquito noise, no matter which input I use.

There doesn't seem to be any menu option to turn the TBC on and off on the EZ49, and the ES15 had virtually identical menu options. The only filtering option seems to be a comb filter, which I have switched on.

Possibly the Sony TRV-120 Digital 8 camcorder, or one of the Sony Mini-DV camcorders might be my best option to correct the line-jitter and video noise. The TRV-120 seems to have DNR and TBC pass-through for analogue video sources; but I'm not sure which camcorder model would be best for this purpose?
I think the noise reduction is probably even more important than the jitter-correction, as it's more disturbing to the eye.

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Old 9th August 2012, 08:28   #30  |  Link
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Recap the PSU of your ES15.
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Old 10th August 2012, 11:48   #31  |  Link
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alex, I've tried but failed to find the thread on videohelp.com where this was discussed. sorry.
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Old 11th August 2012, 20:35   #32  |  Link
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I drank some coffee and re-read this thread from the top.

alexh110- What you want cannot be done with anything suggested here. There's a great deal of confusion going on about what device corrects which error. ADVC-300 will not correct the wavy lines, ES-15 will not correct the wavy lines (it might correct the flagging issue which is a special case), AVT-8710 or TBC-100/1000 will not correct the wavy lines, TRV camcorders will not correct the wavy lines on pass-thru. Mostly these devices just stabilize the underlaying signal so it can be captured without framedrops -> Frame Synchronizers. They do pretty much nothing for the visual errors (some just make them worse while others are more "transparent"). I've used the ADVC-300 and it's DNR is bollocks. Out of interest, could you give a video sample to look at and to play with?

The wavy lines can be corrected using integrated TBCs built for this purpose while eating the "raw" input from the drum. As you discovered, there are no Betamax players with this option. Professional units might have option for raw output from the VTR to external TBC which has raw input (I don't have experience of this but I've studied it a bit, you may have experience with this stuff from your industry years). If there exist some kind of industrial Betamax unit which has this option, paired with external professional TBC, it might produce results. Also you should calibrate your playback Betamax unit according to the tapes you're trying to capture. This might ease up the errors (flagging atleast). Your 950 propably is off spec compared to the machines the tapes were made with. Last hope is to wait if jmac698 gets his software TBC working decently. But it might take a long time, and it's a slow and complicated PC based solution you frowned upon earlier.

If you're dead set on ADVC-300, I might suggest at looking for something like Leitch DPS 475 instead, used cost the same as ADVC-300 but a bit in different league and maybe more familiar to you than these consumer devices. (still, no wavy lines fix)
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