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Old 21st February 2012, 11:22   #1541  |  Link
Ghitulescu
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1. Intel manufactures graphic cards
2. non-HW-accelerated reencodings/decodings/etc are painfully slow on older (and non-DRMed) systems
3. Microsoft already tried to get rid of alternative (in this case) sound drivers (the trustworthy ASIO & co) by proposing WASAPI. Since the audio stream MUST pass through WASAPI in order to get out from the system to AVR+Speakers, I see no difficulty in implementing the watermark detection there (it shouldn't be so hard, weaker GPU/CPUs of standalone do this currently). Microsoft licensed cinavia. For Xbox720 only? Why this hurry, as it will be sold only in 1.5 years?
4. There is since long time a requirement that all "sensible" parts of a system to be monolithic (no more soldering, no more bridging, no more cutting traces, no more test points etc.) to prevent tampering. AACS also requires this. HDCP requires this. "The weakest Link" can render the whole system "dead" or crippled.
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Old 21st February 2012, 11:26   #1542  |  Link
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As long as there are buses connecting the hardware, there's still a chance. Normal or external PCI (Thunderbolt), or even USB audio adapters can receive data from the CPU, and unless the CPU (or at least the DRM part of it) scans ALL I/O for unwanted content, this is still a possibility.
The Bus as you and I understand it at present wont exist. All I/O will be subject to the single chip.
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Old 21st February 2012, 11:49   #1543  |  Link
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Like Sigma Designs SoCs. The only "access point" seems to be the DRAM, but this could be integrated as well or could hold only useless data. They are called "Secure Media Processors" for a reason, right?
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Old 21st February 2012, 13:11   #1544  |  Link
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The Sigma SoC chips implement a wide variety of functions, including decoding many audio formats, many video formats, and YES even Cinavia "detection." However, they cannot (and do not) implement Cinavia ENFORCEMENT. That part must be done within the firmware of the player itself. As has been seen recently with Cinavia ENFORCEMENT being recently added to a Sony and a Samsung player. The SoC can detect the watermark, but the firmware of the player may (or may not) bother to act on it.

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Old 21st February 2012, 13:30   #1545  |  Link
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are we still talking about PCs or other single-chip-embedded devices? Even with the advent of all these tablet and whatever devices, where more and more users settle with a locked down system, I still do believe there will be computers like current PCs where you can start any software you want and plug in any hardware you like. The future is bleak for the other devices though, with secure boot and whatever, where only certified software will run, ruling out all self-compiled and not-so-off-the-shelf software and open source in general.
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Old 21st February 2012, 13:47   #1546  |  Link
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When I pointed to SoCs I knew they won't be that soon found in a PC. I wanted just to show the future (or the past). The intelligent periferics (like IDE) took over various functions a CPU once did. If the CPU in a eg Sinclair Spectrum did everything (including the timing for the optional floppy interface) except encoding the video, the much powerful CPUs of today can do it, too*. There is an initiative, whose name I've forgot ATM, to replace the old BIOS with a "trusted platform". Why? Because the old system allowed for bypassing whatever locks the modern OSes might want to put in.

So the technical solution to cinavia on PCs seems again to be "DON'T UPDATE, DON'T UPGRADE". Keep your system as it is now (if you're happy with) and away from internet.

*According to Verance, the detection routine doesn't need more than 10Mips, thus a Pentium class CPU would fully suffice.
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Last edited by Ghitulescu; 22nd February 2012 at 08:39. Reason: New info.
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Old 21st February 2012, 20:07   #1547  |  Link
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@SamuriHL

Hi!
Quote:
Myself, I make MKV's of all my discs and play them using J River's MC17
So, based on the current limitations of MKV, does your statement mean you'll be willing to purchase "Cinavia"-infected Blu-ray discs at retail, despite the fact that you may not be able to view "PIP" and possibly other "Extras" that you'll have paid for? (whether you'd like to or not)
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Old 21st February 2012, 20:31   #1548  |  Link
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Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
@SamuriHL

Hi! So, based on the current limitations of MKV, does your statement mean you'll be willing to purchase "Cinavia"-infected Blu-ray discs at retail, despite the fact that you may not be able to view "PIP" and possibly other "Extras" that you'll have paid for? (whether you'd like to or not)
That's correct. I don't generally care about so called "extras". And if I want to watch them, I can just as easily pop the original in a licensed player and call it good. I generally care about having the movie on my HTPC's so I can watch the main movie across my gigabit network. I get what you're asking, though, and it's a fair point. But for me, the answer is yes, I will accept the limitations of MKV.
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Old 21st February 2012, 20:49   #1549  |  Link
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@SamuriHL
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I get what you're asking, though, and it's a fair point.
Thanks for replying ;>}

I asked so that the answer to my question would be posted for all to read - so that no one might be misled into thinking that your procedures would result in a viewable "Full Disc" Blu-ray backup...
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Old 21st February 2012, 21:04   #1550  |  Link
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@SamuriHL
Thanks for replying ;>}

I asked so that the answer to my question would be posted for all to read - so that no one might be misled into thinking that your procedures would result in a viewable "Full Disc" Blu-ray backup...
Yes, that's completely fair to point out. My method will only do movie only backups. The method for anyone wanting full disc backups is to create an ISO file (or rip to folder *IF* your chosen player supports that function), mount the ISO (if created), and open it with a *non-cinavia* version of a commercial software player like TMT, PDVD, or WinDVD. This is why I recommend keeping the old versions around in case you need them. That should keep you in movie heaven, with all the extras, for quite some time.
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Old 21st February 2012, 21:42   #1551  |  Link
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Yes, that's completely fair to point out. My method will only do movie only backups. The method for anyone wanting full disc backups is to create an ISO file (or rip to folder *IF* your chosen player supports that function), mount the ISO (if created), and open it with a *non-cinavia* version of a commercial software player like TMT, PDVD, or WinDVD. This is why I recommend keeping the old versions around in case you need them. That should keep you in movie heaven, with all the extras, for quite some time.
Hi Samuri

I only backup Movie. Do you convert to MKV rather than straight to ISO just to get rid of the BDMV overhead file size.
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Old 21st February 2012, 21:51   #1552  |  Link
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Hi Samuri

I only backup Movie. Do you convert to MKV rather than straight to ISO just to get rid of the BDMV overhead file size.
That's correct, yea. MakeMKV, which I currently use, takes the streams as is from the BD and sticks them in an MKV container. This reduces the size quite a bit vs an ISO. Even vs a movie only ISO, believe it or not. MKV is a very efficient container. When I switched most of my ISOs over to MKV a long time back, I reclaimed many gigs of space in the process. The other nice thing is that because they are smaller and single file, they stream across the network like butter. So what I do is set up libraries on each machine in J River MC17, and then when I want to watch a movie or show, I open that up in theater view, select the one I want, and I'm off and running no matter which machine I use in the house. Cinavia never enters the picture at all for me in that case. I literally have to check the back cover to see if it has Cinavia on it. Or I guess I could try to stream it to my PS3 but why?
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Old 21st February 2012, 22:00   #1553  |  Link
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That's correct, yea. MakeMKV, which I currently use, takes the streams as is from the BD and sticks them in an MKV container. This reduces the size quite a bit vs an ISO. Even vs a movie only ISO, believe it or not. MKV is a very efficient container. When I switched most of my ISOs over to MKV a long time back, I reclaimed many gigs of space in the process. The other nice thing is that because they are smaller and single file, they stream across the network like butter. So what I do is set up libraries on each machine in J River MC17, and then when I want to watch a movie or show, I open that up in theater view, select the one I want, and I'm off and running no matter which machine I use in the house. Cinavia never enters the picture at all for me in that case. I literally have to check the back cover to see if it has Cinavia on it. Or I guess I could try to stream it to my PS3 but why?
Thanks Samuri
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Old 21st February 2012, 22:55   #1554  |  Link
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Just as an FYI to others looking to "Cinavia proof" their library. My use of J River MC 17 is not required for MKV or disc playback. While I personally feel it's an exceptional piece of software and well worth the money, if you want to have a Cinavia free playback solution that can play from unprotected BD structures or MKV's as easily as MC17 can, you can use the open source MPC-HC. My recommendation is to disable all internal filters and instead install madVR for the renderer and LAV filters for splitting, audio, and video decoding. With that setup, you can use MPC-HC to open unprotected BD structures (disc, mounted ISO, folder) and/or MKV's with full bitstreaming capability and/or full decoding. (Caveat...DTS-HD MA decoding requires a DLL from TMT). This will never support Cinavia, and as long as you can remove the protection, it will play your content. It will *NOT* currently give you menus, so you are limited to using the title switching capability of your player of choice to play the movie and extras. But it's at least another weapon in the arsenal against Cinavia.
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Old 22nd February 2012, 00:15   #1555  |  Link
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Directx

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Just as an FYI to others looking to "Cinavia proof" their library. My use of J River MC 17 is not required for MKV or disc playback. While I personally feel it's an exceptional piece of software and well worth the money, if you want to have a Cinavia free playback solution that can play from unprotected BD structures or MKV's as easily as MC17 can, you can use the open source MPC-HC. My recommendation is to disable all internal filters and instead install madVR for the renderer and LAV filters for splitting, audio, and video decoding. With that setup, you can use MPC-HC to open unprotected BD structures (disc, mounted ISO, folder) and/or MKV's with full bitstreaming capability and/or full decoding. (Caveat...DTS-HD MA decoding requires a DLL from TMT). This will never support Cinavia, and as long as you can remove the protection, it will play your content. It will *NOT* currently give you menus, so you are limited to using the title switching capability of your player of choice to play the movie and extras. But it's at least another weapon in the arsenal against Cinavia.
Hi Samuri

I have an error when trying to update DirectX 2010.

Have you any knowledge re this.
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Old 22nd February 2012, 00:16   #1556  |  Link
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Hi Samuri

I have an error when trying to update DirectX 2010.

Have you any knowledge re this.
No, but, you should post it in the MPC-HC thread. I'm sure you can get it solved there.
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Old 22nd February 2012, 00:23   #1557  |  Link
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No, but, you should post it in the MPC-HC thread. I'm sure you can get it solved there.
OK, must admit I hadnt looked to see if there was a thread re this.

Thanks
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Old 22nd February 2012, 00:34   #1558  |  Link
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With apologies to Setarip_old for going off topic but in the interest of people looking for Cinavia free playback:

MPC-HC: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123537
LAV Filters: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191
madVR: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228

Hope that helps!
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Old 22nd February 2012, 05:51   #1559  |  Link
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It's been about a week since I posted the following request:
Quote:
Has anyone confirmed whether playing an infected disc on a "Cinavia"/Verance-infected standalone player connected to an HDTV via either component or composite cables triggers the sordid protection?
I've got to believe that there's a member of the community who would feel good knowing that his/her otherwise frustrating "Cinavia"/Verance-infected standalone player was used to either easily (plug in a cable or two) refute or support this suggestion ;>}
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Old 22nd February 2012, 06:13   #1560  |  Link
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I don't have a way to test it as I don't have component cables for my ps3. I still maintain it won't work.

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