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Old 5th January 2012, 00:33   #81  |  Link
madhatter300871
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The projector doesn't do anything inherently different from a TV, be it LCB or plasma. The only difference would be the supported refresh rates/resolutions and built-in enhancements (which I turn off anyway).

Motion judder (NTSC judder if you like) is without a doubt caused by the refresh rate not being a multiple of the movie frame rate. I overcome this completely by using a PC and speeding up to 25fps, the change in audio pitch isn't noticeable.

I use windows XP and I can set my Nvidia card to output at 24Hz no problem by defining a custom resolution. My projector, however, doesn't like it so I stick with 50Hz and 25fps playback. It's smooth and flawless.

I don't think I'll ever have a standalone player now, the PC is much more flexible and once set up correctly gives excellent performance. I also wont move to Vista or 7 until I am absolutely forced to, XP is performing excellently as a platform for media playback. OK, later operating systems offer supposedly better renderers etc but really, my whole movie experience is quite superb.

What model of TV do you have ? You might want to try connecting via the HDMI connection, maybe the VGA and HDMI handle refresh rates differently, I really don't know. It's a long shot but ....
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Old 5th January 2012, 08:57   #82  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madhatter300871 View Post
The projector doesn't do anything inherently different from a TV, be it LCB or plasma. The only difference would be the supported refresh rates/resolutions and built-in enhancements (which I turn off anyway).
I'm not so sure, but I know nothing about projectors. However someone else in this thread (I think) said they can see the "jitter" I described, however maybe how much of it you can see is display related in some way I don't understand.
I'm pretty sure what I'm referring to is what's described here as 24p "strobe". It is something different to "judder".
Disadvantages of 24p
As I said I can only see it during camera pans or motion at particular speeds (like the beginning of that sample). At higher speeds it's at least far less noticeable, maybe because motion blur kicks in and the brain starts to piece the frames together differently. I'm not too sure. I guess in that respect it has similarities to judder which I can generally only see at certain speeds too. If motion is fairly slow or really quick the judder effect seems to disappear. I guess that's why originally I said for me if I eliminate the judder I'm still left with the jitter where the judder used to be.

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I use windows XP and I can set my Nvidia card to output at 24Hz no problem by defining a custom resolution. My projector, however, doesn't like it so I stick with 50Hz and 25fps playback. It's smooth and flawless.
So far, it still looks like I can only choose between 60hz, 70hz, 72hz and 75hz. I actually managed to find a list of supported refresh rates for my TV (buried in the back of the manual I somehow missed it the first time). According to the manual, refresh rates either via VGA or HDMI are exactly the same (the TV has a PC dedicated, HDMI input) although I'm not sure I'll take that as gospel as it doesn't list some resolutions as being supported (1280x720 for example) which work fine.
Using the Nvidia control panel, now I've finally discovered how to customize resolutions properly, I can't customize any different combinations than I can get via Windows Display Properties. At least none which seem to work.

To get 72hz I'm going to have to drop the resolution but I'll have to play around to see if it makes a perceivable difference to the sharpness of video. Given it certainly does to text (at 1080p text is nice and sharp whereas at lower resolutions text has that horrible LCD "blurred" look).
I'm just not sure whether I'll be able to determine the effect of changing resolution on video all that accurately though. By the time I look at video, change the screen resolution and then look at it again.... well unless the difference is so great it leaps out at me the time it takes between resolution changes is way too long for a valid A/B test.

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I don't think I'll ever have a standalone player now, the PC is much more flexible and once set up correctly gives excellent performance. I also wont move to Vista or 7 until I am absolutely forced to, XP is performing excellently as a platform for media playback. OK, later operating systems offer supposedly better renderers etc but really, my whole movie experience is quite superb.
I couldn't agree more. I've used the PC exclusively for quite a while but it wasn't until recently when I bought a Bluray player I could compare the two (I was only pausing the video on identical frames and switching TV inputs or doing the same with the video playing) but even so the difference in picture quality was significant enough to reveal the PC produces a better picture. It actually surprised me a little because to be honest I hadn't expected that.
When it comes to upscaling I don't even need to A/B them to see a difference. No matter what noise reduction settings I use (or not) on the TV there's no way I can duplicate the way video is upscaled using the PC. With the PC even a decent standard definition AVI looks quite good (at least at normal viewing distance). Using the Bluray player all the compression artifacts etc are way more pronounced.
Plus if I'm going to be able to eliminate the judder, the PC is my only hope.

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What model of TV do you have ? You might want to try connecting via the HDMI connection, maybe the VGA and HDMI handle refresh rates differently, I really don't know. It's a long shot but ....
Samsung PS51D450 Plasma (edit: I posted the wrong model number originally. It's the 450, not the 550).
At least I know it's not the PC causing the "jitter" or "strobe" effect. I've already tried remuxing different sections of video at 25fps and 30fps and playing them on the Bluray player and the result is the same as when using the PC. I'll continue to experiment.....

Last edited by hello_hello; 8th January 2012 at 14:58.
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Old 5th January 2012, 09:42   #83  |  Link
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Well that didn't take long.....
I found a resolution which worked happily at 72hz (1360x768) and ignored the oddness of the TV telling me it was displaying at 1024x768 because the aspect ratio of video still looked normal. A quick comparison of a fairly sharp 720p video didn't seem to produce a noticeable drop in clarity over using the native 1920x1080p resolution, and it did seem to fix the judder, only to me the 24p "strobe" effect where the judder used to be isn't all that less annoying so I just went back to 1080p.

Looks like a script to increase the frame rate to 60fps will be my last hope, but I'm going to have to leave experimenting with that until another day.
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Old 5th January 2012, 18:06   #84  |  Link
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I'm finding it hard to believe that you are going to have to use a script to generate 60fps video, something doesn't seem quite right here, I'm sure we must have missed something.

I had a look at the manual for your TV, have you tried playing a video using the "Allshare" application ? Is it any better (judder/jitter wise only).

The manual indicates that the correct frequency to be selected when connected to a PC is 60Hz, so I am thinking that when connected via HDMI you should be able to set 50Hz. I haven't read this in the manual, I am making a presumption. If so, you can use reclock to speed up to 25fps. This is what I do (and alot of other from what I have read here) and the results are great. I mean, we have been watching US movies sped up to 25fps for years haven't we. Can you connect via HDMI to check ?
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Old 5th January 2012, 22:31   #85  |  Link
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No, I've never run the "Allshare" application.

I'm yet to buy a DVI to HDMI adapter so I can connect via HDMI. The manual seems to indicate the refresh rates for the dedicated PC/HDMI input and VGA are exactly the same, however the TV operates at 50hz when playing PAL video via the Bluray player so there's possibly a chance I could use a standard HDMI input with the PC and connect it at 50hz. If that works I probably will use ReClock and just watch everything at 25fps although I still think I'll simply be replacing the judder with 25p "strobe".

I did try connecting the PC at 50hz via VGA but even once I overcame my initial dumbness and worked out how to create custom video profiles properly, setting the refresh rate to 50hz wouldn't work. Every time I saved the custom setup it'd automatically change back to 60hz as I saved it. I'll buy a HDMI adaptor soon.

I actually don't mind using a script to generate 60fps video if I can get it to work and it does a good job of interpolating frames as it'll get rid of the 24p "strobe" effect. Mind you neither the strobe or judder really annoy me all that much, it's just that I don't find one to be particularly more annoying than the other. It's only something I see now and then, although if I can make the video look perfectly smooth then I guess, why not? I wonder if for some reason the 24p strobe effect is more pronounced using a Plasma than it is when using another type of display? There is an LCD in this house which supports 1080p/24 so later today I might remux some juddery sections of video into little test files at 24fps and 25fps to see how they display on that TV. Mind you even if they're perfectly smooth I don't think I could see myself giving up my Plasma for an LCD, but it'll be interesting to see if there's much difference.
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Old 6th January 2012, 19:27   #86  |  Link
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I doubt the VGA input will accept 50Hz, I know the HDMI will. Thinking about this more I think you might be experiencing the following :-

Judder, caused by playing 23.976 or 24 fps video at a non-multiple refresh rate, jitter being caused by 23.976/24 material being telecined to play at 60Hz. Does this sound feasible ?

You dont need to buy an adapter, go to cableuniverse.com (or similar) and just buy a DVI to HDMI cable, I have a 7m one, works a treat.

I am quietly confident switching to 50Hz and speeding up to 25fps will give you the best results.
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Old 8th January 2012, 15:07   #87  |  Link
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Judder, caused by playing 23.976 or 24 fps video at a non-multiple refresh rate, jitter being caused by 23.976/24 material being telecined to play at 60Hz. Does this sound feasible ?
Not really to be honest. I can't tests for jitter at 24fps because I get judder at that frame rate. While testing for jitter I have to remux the video at either 25 or 30fps (depending on the refresh rate). Or use reclock to change the frame rate if I'm testing with the PC.

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I am quietly confident switching to 50Hz and speeding up to 25fps will give you the best results.
Hopefully. I'll buy a DVI-HDMI lead this week.

I almost wish I'd bought the model which supports 24p (I posted the model number of the TV which does in my earlier post but I've edited the post to change it to the model number of the TV I actually own). Mind you I don't know if it works all that well or how it works because as far as I know the PS51D550 still refreshes at 60hz, although that could be wrong. I haven't checked. The 550 has a cinema smooth mode (or whatever they call it) which the 450 doesn't have.
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Old 8th January 2012, 21:02   #88  |  Link
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When film is telecined for NTSC frame rate there will off course be a frame made of alternating fields every second, could this be what your seeing ?

I'm going to have to hold my hands up and just admit I really don't know the difference between 'judder' and 'jitter'. For me at least, if I play back video at anything other than an even multiple of refresh rate I get what I believe to be termed 'judder', most noticeable on slow horizontal panning scenes. I have never experience 'jitter' and still don't really know what you mean.

Sorry for my ignorance, I know it's not been helpful. I'll be interested to know if you have smooth playback at 25fps when connected via HDMI.
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Old 9th January 2012, 04:34   #89  |  Link
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No, the jitter or "24p strobe", is just something I can see when the refresh rate is multiple of the frame rate (25fps and 50hz etc in my case). I can see the difference more clearly when slowing the frame rate with ReClock. At 12fps (60hz), I can see judder a lot more frequently. Likewise at 15fps the judder disappears but the strobe effect is a lot more prominent.

My TV does have a film mode (not the same as cinema mode) but it's not available when using the VGA input. If it reduces the strobe effect (which I guess it's designed to do) I'll find out when I switch to HDMI. Thinking about it, later I'll try a few video samples using the Bluray player and enable it to see what the result is like. You never know, it might reduce how noticeable the judder is too. The manual says it's supposed to "smooth" video, but doesn't offer anything more descriptive.
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Old 10th January 2012, 01:09   #90  |  Link
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I'll stay tuned.
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Old 26th January 2012, 22:37   #91  |  Link
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Hello_Hello : how did you get on, did you try your HDMI connection ? Just curioyus
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Old 27th January 2012, 05:30   #92  |  Link
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Nope. Not yet. I'm being slack I know......

I came very close to testing it out the TV's "film" mode using the Bluray player last night, but got involved in a discussion in another thread regarding some encoding problems and didn't get there. I'm curious to see if it's something which will help reduce the "jitter" effect (as opposed to the judder).

As soon as I've bought the DVI to HDMI cable, which I'm going to make an effort to do next week, I'll post back with the results.
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Old 29th January 2012, 06:21   #93  |  Link
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Well I did discover one thing today. The Sony Bluray player is too retarded to switch to 50hz when playing 25fps video via USB. Works perfectly playing a disc. I haven't tested the Samsung player yet, but the Samsung TV does seem to switch to 50hz. I'm not 100% sure because unlike when I'm playing an external source the TV doesn't display the refresh rate when I press the info button, but at the moment if I remux a 24fps video at 25fps I'm fairly sure the motion is smoother. It's still jittery, but the judder seems to disappear. I'll have to test it with some different videos, but I guess I could always convert everything to 25fps then get the TV to play it via USB..... sigh.

Film mode also does nothing. I still can't find a definitive explanation of what it does but the description says one mode optimizes for video, the other for text in video (or something like that) and it's only available in 1080i mode anyway so I guess maybe it's a deinterlacing thing?

Looks like it will have to be the PC to the rescue again. I'll definitely pick up a DVI cable in the next few days.
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Old 31st January 2012, 22:20   #94  |  Link
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I bought a DVI to HDMI lead today.... finally. Now if only the PC would boot while it's connected. There's always something......
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Old 1st February 2012, 04:48   #95  |  Link
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Well I'm finally connected..... I'm only at the preliminary testing stage with some bugs to iron out, but the upshot of it all it I can now connect the PC at 50hz, use ReClock to play everything at 25fps, and I seem to have "PAL FILM mode". It still jitters or strobes though.... just without judder.

Something I don't quite understand..... when I connected the video card and went into it's properties I had some new refresh rates to play with.
24Hz interlaced, 25Hz interlaced, 30Hz interlaced and of course 50Hz and 60Hz. I'm just not sure I fully understand the interlaced reference yet..... well except for the fact the TV still seems to be refreshing at either 50Hz or 60Hz even when I use 24, 25 and 30. I assume the "interlaced" refresh rates expect interlaced video so the refresh rate is actually twice what the video card is saying it is (it's either 50 or 60Hz).

Which takes me back to the 24hz refresh rate. I'll confess when I saw it I allowed myself to get a little excited, but I'm fairly sure when running in 24hz, interlaced mode, the Screen is really refreshing at 60Hz. I'll have to look at some more video, but I'm fairly sure there's still judder when using the 24Hz refresh rate.

So..... aside from the fact I can't get MPC-HC's refresh rate changing function to work properly yet (it crashes whenever it tries changing to 25hz or 50hz), all is well. I guess I don't need to worry about using the refresh rate changing function anyway as I imagine I'll just leave the card running at 50Hz and use ReClock.
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Old 16th February 2012, 13:37   #96  |  Link
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It appears that the more you read and learn here in this forum, the more you realise what a complicate thing is to set a PC to correctly play an original movie (ripped or not), the same way a standalone does. Good luck!
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Old 16th February 2012, 15:30   #97  |  Link
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Well.... I'm sure you know the saying.... make something even an idiot can use and only an idiot will use it.

But seriously? Over two weeks after the last post in this thread you suddenly need to throw in a "standalone players are better" post? Sigh.....
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Old 16th February 2012, 17:01   #98  |  Link
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It appears that the more you read and learn here in this forum, the more you realise what a complicate thing is to set a PC to correctly play an original movie (ripped or not), the same way a standalone does.
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Well.... I'm sure you know the saying.... make something even an idiot can use and only an idiot will use it.
That is a good argument, indeed. A person preferring a standalone is an idiot. And people having two players are named how, ehm ehm?
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My Sony BDP-S480 will happily read the entire contents of a 2TB NTFS, USB hard drive. It pleasantly surprised me when I first tried it. The Samsung Bluray player in this house will too
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Last week I bought a Samsung BD-D5500 player and tested them both more thoroughly....Anyway, I exchanged the Samsung player for a Sony BDP-S480.
The point was actually that you argued for the sake of argument (read contradict), without any viable knowledge, just sophisms. It took you about 1 year to notice that could not synch perfectly to your monitor, that the black levels were false, and God knows what else is wrong, maybe something with HD audio. Meanwhile two standalones entered your house.
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Old 16th February 2012, 17:51   #99  |  Link
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That is a good argument, indeed. A person preferring a standalone is an idiot. And people having two players are named how, ehm ehm?
Wow.... so while there's an opportunity for rational discussion awaiting you in the Cinavia thread, which it appears you'll ignore as you typically do when it's become obvious you're full of it, you're instead posting in old threads and hunting for out of context quotes in order to pick an argument. You really do need to grow up a bit.

Do you understand the distinction between "use" and "own", "preferring" and "having", or does even that simple concept need to be explained to you?

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So, you're not happy with the PC playback of multimedia files, to resort to a standalone you criticised so strongly and factually not too long time ago? Is it something a standalone player might bring that a PC doesn't already have?
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Yes, I'm perfectly happy with the PC as a media player. So happy, I've probably used the Bluray player in my room a handful of times, and then it was only while I was testing things. I'm yet to put a disc in it.
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The point was actually that you argued for the sake of argument.... blah.... blah.... blah....
No, the point is you posted in a thread two weeks after the conversation ended because I've bruised your fragile man-child ego and you feel the need to try to score a point, but unfortunately you're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish.

I'll leave you to reply with whatever new waffle-fest you manage to come up with. You're not even amusing enough to retain my interest now.

Last edited by hello_hello; 16th February 2012 at 18:17.
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Old 19th February 2012, 21:14   #100  |  Link
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I wonder, do you think there might be a problem with the television ?

Using the DVI-HDMI cable, you now play smoothly at 50Hz, using reclock to speed up the video to 25fps (which is exactly what I do). My projector natively runs at 50Hz and i have to say playback is smooth and fluid, no judder (nor jitter).

Could you try your PC on a different TV (or projector)? You might not be able to, but I still think something is not quite right here.
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