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Old 2nd January 2012, 17:42   #21  |  Link
Ghitulescu
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Any modern TV featuring more than 100-120 Hz (double rate) does employ at least one such algorithm...
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Old 3rd January 2012, 05:44   #22  |  Link
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OMG the image with this frame double interpolation (is true interpolation or simply double the frame ?) is like soap opera (mexican drama ) it's not movie anymore. I prefer judder instead this...Interesting with Splash Player the movie with motion2 preset remain movie but Splash Player is far away from MPC HC and PotPlayer.....
I found PowerDVD have TrueTheater Motion with 2 options:
TrueTheater Motion: select this option to enable frame rate upsampling, from 24 fps up to 60 fps, to make panning scenes, particularly in action movies, play more smoothly. The Smoother option doubles the frame rate of the original movie content, while Smoothest can improve the frame rate of video content to 60 or 72 fps, depending on the output frame rate of your display
But I don't have hardware decoding and subtitle in my language are without diacritics.
So far changing the resolution of my LCD to 1920*1080 and choose between 23 Hz (I think it's 23.976 but ATI catalyst showing only integer ?) or 24 HZ seem to me judder free and Ctrl + J in MPC HC agrees with me: zero glitches the green line and red line are smooth. 3 years I watch movies without care but since I start to read forum I can't sleep for judder. Damn .

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Old 3rd January 2012, 15:25   #23  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Remicade View Post
3 years I watch movies without care but since I start to read forum I can't sleep for judder. Damn.
Well I wouldn't say it keeps me awake but I know what you mean.
Have you tried PowerDVD's TrueTheatre Motion? If so, is it any good?
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Old 3rd January 2012, 20:17   #24  |  Link
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Nope I don't have the program.
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Old 5th January 2012, 09:08   #25  |  Link
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I read some reviews about TV and I found 24 p TrueCinema is activated only at 1920x1080 24 Hz.
...is a 32in 720p LCD TV with a native 1,366x768 resolution, so we were surprised to see that it supported a 1080p 24p signal from our Blu-ray player. At this resolution, though, the TV has to downscale the image to fit the TV's native resolution. We noticed more natural movement in tracking in fast action scenes compared to Sony's KDL-32V4000, which doesn't support 24p...

An screnshotcomparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/101357

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Old 7th January 2012, 22:13   #26  |  Link
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3 years I watch movies without care but since I start to read forum I can't sleep for judder. Damn .
This has been said many times before (and I completely agree): you want to be
happy with the purchased gear - stop reading others' opinion/reviews...

Slow horizontal pans are the best to detect judder.
I think Titanic (the movie) has such a part when the ship leaves the dock.

But again, think twice whether you want to watch it...

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Old 7th January 2012, 22:52   #27  |  Link
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Without using interframe creation algorithms, all flat panels (sample&hold type) suffer from judder when displaying 24Hz film. This is simply inevitable - each frame is staying static for ~40ms, but the eye is moving during that time. So you have inverse motion blur on the retina, plus double-images due to retina persistence.
(And blackframe insertion is mostly ineffective at such low image frequencies - it would only work out if you would accept visible flicker, like old CRT tubes.)

To minimize this unwanted judder (not the 24Hz judder itself, but the inevitable side-effects that happen on the retina), interframe creation is a must.

The trick to minimize the judder while not creating the dreadful "video-look" is rather simple: don't make full-vector interpolation, but only fractional. Say you have 24fps film, and a 120Hz TV panel. The "obvious" interpolation strategy is to create new interframes at 20%, 40%, 60% and 80% time positions. This is full-vector interpolation, very smooth, and ... looks like video, not film.
Using only fractional-vector interpolation, interframes are created at e.g. 12.5%, 25%, 37.5% and 50%. Et voila. The panel<>retina related judder is vastly reduced, but the observed characteristic still is "film".

This works pretty good on TV sets capable of at least 120(100) Hz physical refresh rate. With PC monitors (still) mostly limited to 60Hz, this strategy can not be employed at its full strength.
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Old 7th January 2012, 23:07   #28  |  Link
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...each frame is staying static for ~40ms, but the eye is moving during that time.
I don't get it...

What is the difference (in terms of observed frames) between a cinema presentation and proper 5:5 playback on a 120Hz device?

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Old 7th January 2012, 23:15   #29  |  Link
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Proper 5:5 playback? Define "proper", please.
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Old 7th January 2012, 23:48   #30  |  Link
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Spitting out every frame 5 times, i.e. showing 24 frames in one second (120Hz TV).

Unlike the first generation 120Hz TVs that were frame-doubling 60Hz.

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Old 8th January 2012, 00:15   #31  |  Link
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It makes no difference if you show a frame 1 time for 40ms, or 2 times for 20ms each, or 5 times for 8 ms each. Everytime the picture "is there", it is the same/old picture at the same/old spatial position, whilst the eye meanwhile has moved on.

We're talking about calculating *new* interframes, creating intermediate spatial positions of moving objects.
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Old 8th January 2012, 00:20   #32  |  Link
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We're talking about calculating *new* interframes....
No.
We are talking about judder, i.e. different frames are shown for different amount of time.

Proper 5:5 playback is identical to cinema presentation. What I'm after (no judder).
Whether you prefer smooth soap-like video to 24fps film is personal (I don't).

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Old 8th January 2012, 00:27   #33  |  Link
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Ah, okay. Though I was not talking about creating soap, in contrary. I was talking about avoiding retina-blur/judder without creating soap.

Your question about displaying 24fps judder-free on a 60Hz display is very easy to answer: it's impossible, period. Thread can be closed now. Satisfied?


Edit - oops, darn, this isn't your thread in fact.
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Old 8th January 2012, 00:41   #34  |  Link
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...question about displaying 24fps judder-free on a 60Hz display is very easy to answer: it's impossible, period.
Right. 60 is not divisible by 24...

Some 25+ years ago, around the time of the first Terminator, James Cameron was advocating to
switch motion picture movie-making to 48fps (to reduce judder you are talking about). It went nowhere.

He might have a better chance with 3D...

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Old 8th January 2012, 01:10   #35  |  Link
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Well, Peter Jackson lately has filmed "The Hobbit" in 48fps, didn't he?


To give a visual hint on what I talked earlier above - (full-vector interpolation vs. partial-vector interpolation), here's a package with 3 videos to compare:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wuo1d4p2sfinv02 (~12MB @MediaFire)


Quote:
Quick & dirty comparison of the effect of interframe-calculation on film sources.


Since most people will watch on a PC-monitor, and most monitors are limited to 60Hz refresh rate, it was chosen to make the
comparison based on a 20fps source instead of a 24fps one. The effect is the same in the end, just a little more pronounced.

Before watching, make sure your monitor _IS_ set to 60Hz refresh rate.


"film20fps.avi"
---------------
This shall be the "movie". Without interpolation tricks, it will play with 3:3 pulldown. Shudder, judder, flubber.

With all respect to "film look", this is not film look, really. This is just pathological ...


"full-interpolation"
--------------------
This is the result of an "ideal" motion interpolation, working at 100% relative interpolation.
The video plays very smooth, sure. But this is not "film look" anymore. This looks like ordinary "video" ... way *too* smooth
for a cinematic movie. Call it "soap opera look".


"partial-interpolation"
-----------------------
This is the result of an "ideal" motion interpolation, working at 50% relative interpolation.

This video is observed vastly more "smooth" than the 20fps movie, however it does not exhibit the overly-smooth video/soap-opera look.
It is much closer to what one would suppose the "film look" to actually look like. Just without the distracting judder-wobber that
can be seen when playing the 20fps video.
Mind you: I don't like soap-opera look for cinematic movies. But I don't like retina-blur/judder either.
The point is that interframe creation does not necessarily create the soap-opera look. You just need to use it appropriately.
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Old 8th January 2012, 01:24   #36  |  Link
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Well, Peter Jackson lately has filmed "The Hobbit" in 48fps, didn't he?
Could be, don't know.

I think it is very material dependent.
IIRC the first HD version of Elephants Dream was 60p and looked very good.
There are some 1080/60p clips from Avatar floating around that look gorgeous.

But real life footage I prefer in film fps.
Just like Chaplin in 16fps...

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Old 8th January 2012, 01:41   #37  |  Link
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BTW, when I happen to watch a 24fps film directly at the PC, I switch the display to 48Hz and mostly use a 50%-style realtime interpolation like shown in the comparison.
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Old 8th January 2012, 15:20   #38  |  Link
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This has been said many times before (and I completely agree): you want to be
happy with the purchased gear - stop reading others' opinion/reviews...
Would that be pretty much the same as being happy with your encodes rather than reading other peoples opinions on how large the file sizes need to be?
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Old 8th January 2012, 21:07   #39  |  Link
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Finally I stop at this config: LCD 23.97522-23.97523 (reported by madVR, 23.975 reported by Reclock). One thing I don't understand: Reclock speed the media to 24 fps and madVr report 1 frame repeat at x hours, if I tell Reclock to play the file at original speed (23.976 reported by madVr and Reclock) madVr report 1 frame repeat every 1.13 minutes. Why ? It's not logic.
Vsync interval and Movie frame interval is the same 41.71 ms.
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Old 9th January 2012, 04:08   #40  |  Link
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It still might be a Vsync problem. Have you tried enabling reclock's vsync correction and adjusting the vsync position? You can read about it in the readme file.

Apparently the Vsync adjustment has problems with the WMR9 renderer, although while it seems to work for me it doesn't fix my tearing problem when I change resizers, which I think also relates to the odd missed or repeated frame. nNeither does adjusting the Vsync using MPC-HC's own options.

If your player has options for adjusting Vsync try them, or in the case of MPC-HC at least, you can adjust a few GPU settings. In my case selecting "wait for flushes" fixed the tearing problem. Just some other ideas for you to try.....
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