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Old 13th December 2011, 18:53   #11441  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I wouldn't call it slight.

Nearest Neighbour, Bicubic 75, Mitchell-Netravali:


Perceptually, Bicubic keeps the same saturation/luminance as Nearest Neighbour, whereas Mitchell-Netravali has a noticeable drop.

The same thing happens with Catmull-Rom to a lesser degree.
That gif pretty much confirms my own tests with CrowdRun. To put my statement in context, Mitchell-Netravali saturation and blurring are slight compared to SoftCubic100, and is the only Chroma scaler I would consider using which has noticeable desaturation. I basically use it on low-quality sources as a poor man's chroma denoise, since anything softer than Mitchell-Netravali I find blurs way to much.

As for Catmull-Rom which I use 90% of the time, the difference between it and Spline36 chroma are basically unnoticeable on real footage. That fact that Catmull-Rom is the sharpest resizer which doesn't produce halos/rings is a bigger benefit since otherwise the halos produced by Spline36 for Luma would increase. Use of Spline36 Luma also slightly restores saturation and reduces the chroma aliasing of Catmull-Rom. The two complement each other well, if aiming for the sharpest result with least ringing as I am.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Bicubic 75/Lanczos 3/Spline 3, all produce similar results to each other as far as brightness/saturation are concerned, the main difference there seems to be with ringing. (which doesn't manifest itself the same way that it does with luma) I'm now leaning towards Spline 3 rather than Bicubic 75 for chroma, unless I find a source where it does bad things. So far, ringing does not seem to have been an issue with chroma from my testing, at least not compared to Bicubic 75 which has been my preference for some time now.
As I mentioned above, chroma ringing/halos only becomes a concern when you are using a luma resizer which produces moderate ringing/halo itself. Since you use SoftCubic for luma, you can get away with pin-sharp chroma at the expense of ringing, since SoftCubic will not increase and actually partially hide the ringing after resize. I wouldn't be surprised if Spline36 chroma complemented it well.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Can you please show me some examples of SoftCubic upscaling losing detail? I will agree that it produces a soft image and can reduce contrast somewhat (at least at the higher levels) but I've yet to find an image where detail has been lost. I should point out that I am primarily upscaling DVDs, not 720p content.
The main issues are indeed a blurry image and extreme loss of contrast which I can't stand. When an image is blurred so much that you are unable to easily see fine detail, I consider that as lost detail. Even though the detail may technically still be there if you sharpened the image back up on your TV afterwards, you shouldn't really be relying on TV post-processing to fix your image.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Other than game footage, where are people getting 720p material? All Blu-rays I have are 1080i/p.
TV recordings, Blu-ray's re-encoded to 720p, and even things like iTunes downloads. It's rare for even 1080p video of Blu-rays to have much resolution above 720p. TV broadcast at 1080i can be even worse.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Perhaps it's just hitting a bit too close to home, but I find these comments to be in very poor taste.
No offense was intended, but I feel it made it made my personal option on use of SoftCubic for luma very clear. If I use SoftCubic luma on a high quality source material it becomes subjectively unwatchable to my eyes. Yet if I have a horrible low quality source which is near unwatchable, SoftCubic can actually help by hiding some of the issue and make the video somewhat watchable.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 13th December 2011 at 20:14.
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Old 13th December 2011, 18:56   #11442  |  Link
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Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
Personally, idk than madVR x64 could be better than madVR. But madVRx64 can work with My Pleer x64 -> fast decoders + AVS x64 input -> fast video processing filters.
Your message in incomprehensible (at least for me). Please write it with basics words, make sentences, and no abbreviations please...

What I mean, x64 madVR is really not a priority right now (from what Madshi said), and it's not your mysterious message which will change its priority.
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Old 13th December 2011, 18:59   #11443  |  Link
iSunrise
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Can you guess which of these are SoftCubic 50/100? (highlight below to see what each image is)
SoftCubic100 should be the last picture and SoftCubic50 the one before that. It´s pretty easy to guess these since SoftCubic100 is heavily desaturating and bluring things, especially when used on luma. Also, contrast seems to suffer because of that. This especially applies to sources with DVD or lower resolution.

Bicubic75 easily wins all of the tests I did, be it chroma or luma. Hopefully madshi adds Bicubic100, I would really like to do some tests on that.

Since madshi also seems to like SoftCubic on chroma (like I do) an algorithm that would do SoftCubic(70-100) and also color-correct (counter the desaturation) would improve SoftCubic even more. Not sure of that is easily doable, though.

Last edited by iSunrise; 13th December 2011 at 19:05.
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Old 13th December 2011, 19:52   #11444  |  Link
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
x64 madVR is really not a priority right now (from what Madshi said)
It he said in March. Now December.
I have information (of the other forums), that madshi is will not make x64-version, until not improve x86-version.
That is why I asked a question. If the question had been raised a couple of days/hours ago - sorry, that I do not know about it.
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Old 13th December 2011, 21:04   #11445  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoBizarre View Post
No, it doesn't. Desktop composition is always equal to screen refresh rate from before loading the first (or should I say - most recent) file, so if I manually switch to correct refresh rate beforehand, composition matches it of course. After that, it stays the same until the change to different refresh rate.
Ok, thanks, I'll check if I can reproduce that.
One more note. If I was to change to correct refresh rate beforehand - manually, I'd have to do it by clicking through Windows' or graphic card's GUI. Using any utility like NirCdm will cause wrong composition rate. The same goes for ReClock's method of automatic refresh rate changing.
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Old 13th December 2011, 22:36   #11446  |  Link
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64 bit madVR is a complete waste of time and effort for no benefit.

Unless I am missing something, why use 64 bit? Like pirlouy said, you are not exactly being very clear.
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Old 13th December 2011, 23:03   #11447  |  Link
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
That fact that Catmull-Rom is the sharpest resizer which doesn't produce halos/rings is a bigger benefit since otherwise the halos produced by Spline36 for Luma would increase.
Catmull-Rom does this at the cost of having high levels of aliasing—almost as bad as bilinear scaling.

I've gone back and forth on this, testing different luma algorithms with different material, and unless someone can find a material where chroma aliasing is a problem, I'd say that you could get away with Bicubic 60 as the "softest" chroma algorithm (for reference, it seems like Catmull-Rom and Bicubic 50 are the same)

While it seemed like Spline 3 was a possibility (lower aliasing and higher sharpness than Bicubic) I did find some material where there was a noticeable decrease in quality caused by ringing.

As always, I would have to spend more time testing (ultimately, it takes a while of also just watching content and noticing problems) but Bicubic 60 may be the best compromise for chroma—either that or Bicubic 75 which I had settled on previously. Any softer than that and you run into desaturation problems, and any sharper than Bicubic 75, you run into ringing problems.
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Use of Spline36 Luma also slightly restores saturation and reduces the chroma aliasing of Catmull-Rom. The two complement each other well, if aiming for the sharpest result with least ringing as I am.
I can't say I agree with that at all. Using a ringing form of luma scaling with an overly soft/desaturated chroma algorithm does not "compliment" each other and "fix" the desaturation/dimming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
As I mentioned above, chroma ringing/halos only becomes a concern when you are using a luma resizer which produces moderate ringing/halo itself. Since you use SoftCubic for luma, you can get away with pin-sharp chroma at the expense of ringing, since SoftCubic will not increase and actually partially hide the ringing after resize. I wouldn't be surprised if Spline36 chroma complemented it well.
I do most of my testing for chroma with nearest neighbour selected for luma so that my choice of luma scaling has no influence on it. Other than high levels of SoftCubic, the luma algorithm has a minimal effect on this at best anyway, mostly it just makes problems easier to spot when using Nearest Neighbour.

Ringing absolutely has an effect on chroma, regardless of the luma algorithm used, but it does not show up in the same way that it does with luma. The easiest way I can describe it is that it makes the edges of things look "bevelled" and you start seeing "hotspots" on finer details.

It's difficult to show, especially as a .gif, but hopefully this will illustrate it somewhat. SoftCubic was used for luma scaling to show that your choice of chroma scaling is still important.


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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
The main issues are indeed a blurry image and extreme loss of contrast which I can't stand. When an image is blurred so much that you are unable to easily see fine detail, I consider that as lost detail.
Again, do you have any examples of this?

I'm curious to see what content you are using that has a lot of high frequency detail that is lost when using SoftCubic. Most high frequency detail in DVD-quality video is ringing/mosquito noise which are compression artefacts/mastering problems.

As I've said before though, you have to pick your poison. You either use an algorithm that is bad for aliasing (Mitchell-Netravali, Catmull-Rom) ringing (Bicubic, Lanczos, Spline) or sharpness. (SoftCubic)

For me, the priority of things I want to avoid are aliasing, then ringing and, I can tolerate a reduction in high frequency contrast as it's largely irrelevant to DVD-quality film content.

Luma scaling is up to the viewer, I still strongly believe that there are some algorithms (like all of SoftCubic, Mitchell-Netravali and Lanczos) that simply produce incorrect results when used for chroma scaling, regardless of the source.
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Even though the detail may technically still be there if you sharpened the image back up on your TV afterwards, you shouldn't really be relying on TV post-processing to fix your image.
I do not. (not sure where that came from?)

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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
TV recordings, Blu-ray's re-encoded to 720p, and even things like iTunes downloads.
Ah, everything here is broadcast in 1080i (and I was under the impression that other than a handful of sports channels, that was the case everywhere) I see no reason to compress Blu-ray to 720p other than piracy, and I was under the impression that iTunes content was DRMed and would not work with madVR.

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It's rare for even 1080p video of Blu-rays to have much resolution above 720p. TV broadcast at 1080i can be even worse.
But the source is 1080i/p and does not need rescaled, which was my point.

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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Bicubic75 easily wins all of the tests I did, be it chroma or luma. Hopefully madshi adds Bicubic100, I would really like to do some tests on that.
After going back to a more compressed source rather than DVD, I am thinking of rescinding my recommendation of Lanczos 3 luma scaling. (as a choice between it and SoftCubic 50) It does very poorly with fine, high contrast edges, so I would probably go with one of the Bicubic variants. (probably Bicubic 75, but I couldn't say without further tests)

As I've said before though, my personal choice is somewhere between SoftCubic 50–70 for luma scaling, as most video I watch that needs upscaled is of DVD or lower resolution where the sharper algorithms just show too much ringing/aliasing. Perhaps they become more acceptable with 720p sources.
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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Since madshi also seems to like SoftCubic on chroma (like I do) an algorithm that would do SoftCubic(70-100) and also color-correct (counter the desaturation) would improve SoftCubic even more. Not sure of that is easily doable, though.
I don't think it would be an easy fix. The desaturation/dimming of colour seems to simply be because it's being softened too much. I haven't tested it, but I am confident in saying that large areas of the same colour will not be desaturated in the same way that finer details are. (basically the smaller the detail, the more it seems to desaturate)
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Old 14th December 2011, 03:33   #11448  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Catmull-Rom does this at the cost of having high levels of aliasing—almost as bad as bilinear scaling.
What aliasing? You seem to think this is a problem, but it's really not in my opinion. You'll virtually never see chroma aliasing in real content unless you use nearest neighbor or your source itself is flawed.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
While it seemed like Spline 3 was a possibility (lower aliasing and higher sharpness than Bicubic) I did find some material where there was a noticeable decrease in quality caused by ringing.

As always, I would have to spend more time testing (ultimately, it takes a while of also just watching content and noticing problems) but Bicubic 60 may be the best compromise for chroma—either that or Bicubic 75 which I had settled on previously. Any softer than that and you run into desaturation problems, and any sharper than Bicubic 75, you run into ringing problems.
That's the main reason I don't use Spline36/Spline36 day-to-day, since I as well identified ringing problems using Spline36 for chroma.

The 'best compromise' is entirely subjective.

Everything sharper than Catmull-rom will produce noticeable ringing in the chroma. You may need to zoom way in to see it, but it's there, even with Bicubic -0.60. Everything softer than Catmull-rom has noticeable desaturation. Catmull-rom offers the most mathematically accurate 2x chroma Bicubic scaling. Minor residual aliasing from the sub-sampled chroma is a non-issue, especially on higher resolution content, since it contributes to perceived sharpness. To me this makes Catmull-rom the best compromise for chroma, since I find anything which rings more as unacceptable.

If you're not bothered by the level of chroma ringing which Bicubic -0.75 produces, there is no reason to question your choice. Bicubic -0.75 very well may be the best compromise for you.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I can't say I agree with that at all. Using a ringing form of luma scaling with an overly soft/desaturated chroma algorithm does not "compliment" each other and "fix" the desaturation/dimming.
Catmull-rom chorma is not overly soft or noticeably desaturated from my testing, so I can't say I agree with your assessment either.

Using Spline36 luma on chroma which contains ringing will produce stronger ringing. Remember that madVR luma scaling is for resizing combined luma/chroma not just luma.

In any case, they do complement each other:
Increased contrast complements any reduction in chroma saturation.
Increased sharpness complements any chroma blurring
Reduction in aliasing complements any chorma aliasing

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Ringing absolutely has an effect on chroma, regardless of the luma algorithm used
Correct. The difference is using SoftCubic luma will not enhance the chroma ringing like Spline36 luma would.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Again, do you have any examples of this?
It happens with every video so it shouldn't need an example. It would seem you just aren't bothered it.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I'm curious to see what content you are using that has a lot of high frequency detail that is lost when using SoftCubic.
In the past few years, almost exclusively Blu-rays and HDTV. The only time I ever watch something on DVD is if it's only available on DVD.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Most high frequency detail in DVD-quality video is ringing/mosquito noise which are compression artefacts/mastering problems.
And this may be the heart of the issue from your point of view.

A desire to hide ringing, noise, artifacts, and/or mastering problems in your source is a good reason to use SoftCubic luma. This is the entire reason I stressed that my choices based around high-quality source material which doesn't have flaws which need to be hidden.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
For me, the priority of things I want to avoid are aliasing, then ringing and, I can tolerate a reduction in high frequency contrast as it's largely irrelevant to DVD-quality film content.
This is where we differ. For luma I care most about sharpness, then ringing, and aliasing. For chroma I care most about ringing, then sharpness, then aliasing. I desire all high frequency detail retained with optimal per-pixel sharpness including things like film grain. If something has flaws, I want to see it (and potentially fix it with filtering/de-interlacing/re-encoding to x264).

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I do not. (not sure where that came from?)
It came up because it should be near-impossible to see fine detail after using SoftCubic luma scaling because of the strong reduction in contrast and softened edges. Using SoftCubic chroma has a near identical effect on making fine chroma detail near-impossible to see because of reductions in saturation and softened edges.

The question then becomes, did you actually want to see what was hidden, or was it just artifacts? If it was actual real temporal detail and not artifacts on a higher quality source, would you then be bothered by not seeing it? You may just be the type of person who prefers a artifact-free, softer & denoised image, rather than a sharper one with more detail but minor artifacts.
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Old 14th December 2011, 10:43   #11449  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mr.duck View Post
64 bit madVR is a complete waste of time and effort for no benefit.

Unless I am missing something, why use 64 bit? Like pirlouy said, you are not exactly being very clear.
Personally I don't care about 64-bit madVR, but that discussion is getting annoying.
1) Well-written software needs no effort to be ported to 64-bit architecture, it only needs (cross-)compilation. The only exception is hand-written assembly, which isn't hard to port either.
2) Existence of 64-bit OS is enough reason to have your software running there in native mode. zmaster clearly stated, that he wants madVR to work with 64-bit players and decoders, which may be faster than 32-bit. And he's not the only one who asks for it.
BTW, it's general problem with closed-source software, which makes switching to the new architectures much harder, than it should be.
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:16   #11450  |  Link
iSunrise
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I don't think it would be an easy fix. The desaturation/dimming of colour seems to simply be because it's being softened too much. I haven't tested it, but I am confident in saying that large areas of the same colour will not be desaturated in the same way that finer details are. (basically the smaller the detail, the more it seems to desaturate)
Typical "real-life" footage or movies don´t have large areas of the same color, though, so this is not valid in most of the cases. Anime, disney or very old game footage may have, but if there´s no desaturation, why bother, all is fine then. The desaturation happens, because there is some kind of pixel or pixel area averaging going on, and that average value gets applied to the neighbouring pixels, which alters the colors. The finer the detail, the more averaging is going to be applied. You stated it yourself, "large areas of the same color" = no details = no desaturation.

Video games nowadays look more and more like movies, so apart from the above cases, the desaturation is what bothers me the most WRT the current SoftCubic algorithm. Reducing the contrast is not something I would think is beneficial. On future OLEDs, we should see the desaturation even better, because it´s already apparent on LCDs.

I guess that madshi would have to implement some kind of saturation boost into the SoftCubic algorithm or pre-process the image with more saturation, before SoftCubic gets applied. If we had some kind of manual control over saturation, we could also do it ourselves, though. If I understood madshi right, we are going to have some manual control over the final image, if we want to.

Last edited by iSunrise; 14th December 2011 at 11:32.
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:36   #11451  |  Link
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Hi madshi,
about this ZP + madVR bug that triggers freeze on seek after frequency switch, I believe I found a more robust method to reproduce it.
Here it is:
With the latest ZP, latest madVR, on XP SP3.
1. In ZP, set the Control Bar as follows, and the Playback Video as follows.

2. Set madVR to change the frequency as follows.

3. Open ZP, put it in fullscreen. Have the control bar appear at the bottom of the screen. If you copied the settings above, it should stay there always.

4. Now open a PAL media (exemple 25fps xvid avi) while your current resolution is 720p60.

5. madVR switches to the resolution instructed in 2.

6. The bug can be seen: ZP interface is now slow, the windows "paint" function for ZP works much slower. If you scroll the control bar for say 30 seconds when ZP is in this state, it will freeze ZP entirely.
Before the freeze occurs, if you reopen the same media from there, it solves the issue instantly (ZP becomes normal/fast again) and no more freeze on seek due..

Please let me know if you can reproduce.
It doesn't _always_ happen, so please try a couple of times.
I've tried to reproduce it on my XPSP3 machine. I've even setup different refresh rates for PAL and NTSC movies and then switched between them, so refresh rate was changed every time between 23.976Hz and 50Hz. I've switched back and forth like 10-20 times, but no problem at all. I've tested with the official ZP8 release, though, not with the ZP8 pre-release you had reported this with. Maybe the final ZP8 release has fixed this problem in the meanwhile?
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:59   #11452  |  Link
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I confirm this problem on Windows 7 but only when using ZoomPlayer. It doesn't happen with MPC-HC even when using absolutely the same filters.
I also noticed that if I leave the player minimized for long enough (~40s for 50i TV recording and ~24s for 24p movie ... it looks like 1000 frames) even the audio stops and when I restore it the audio continues from the point before the stop while the video catches up. One other difference between ZoomPlayer and MPC-HC is that when minimized when I hover with the mouse over the button in the taskbar I see the movie playing in the small preview window of MPC while it's stuck for ZP.
Does this make any sense?
This should also be fixed in the next build.
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Old 14th December 2011, 12:09   #11453  |  Link
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1) Well-written software needs no effort to be ported to 64-bit architecture, it only needs (cross-)compilation. The only exception is hand-written assembly, which isn't hard to port either.
Assuming there is a 64-bit compiler available for the language the program is written in.
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Old 14th December 2011, 14:13   #11454  |  Link
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Anyone else have this behavior/bug (long standing issue, not linked to lastest versions):

Main screen is 1680x1050, 2nd display is TV running 1920x1080.
Playing a video on TV in FullScreenExclusive accessing madVR trayicon (on the 1st display) to change language or subtitle causes the popup menu to just appear for split second and disappear right away. I have to leave FSE to be able to make the wanted change and then can go back to FSE.

Any idea? Could it because TV has a bigger height than primary?
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Old 14th December 2011, 14:36   #11455  |  Link
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Any idea? Could it because TV has a bigger height than primary?
Try moving your task bar to another screen location (like to the side opposite the secondary mon) and then click the madVR icon and see what happens.
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Old 14th December 2011, 19:40   #11456  |  Link
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The minimize-catchup/speedup problem happens with most files that I have and the audio actually starts to cut when I minimize DVDs.

Also madshi, I know this may not be at the top of your priority list but if you can have built-in support for DVDs then the whole question of external dvd navigators and refresh rates would be easier to solve IMO. Thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to donating once you open up donations.
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Old 15th December 2011, 01:00   #11457  |  Link
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I'm having an issue with MadVR, which is basically preventing me from using this amazing plugin..

And that is, fullscreen interface is broken.. No volume adjust, not seeking, nothing..

I was reading on page 840 in this thread here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...=1#post1544864 that it was pseudo fixed with MPC-HC 3011. I am using the main download from the home page (3456) and it's not working..
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Old 15th December 2011, 01:26   #11458  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've tried to reproduce it on my XPSP3 machine. I've even setup different refresh rates for PAL and NTSC movies and then switched between them, so refresh rate was changed every time between 23.976Hz and 50Hz. I've switched back and forth like 10-20 times, but no problem at all. I've tested with the official ZP8 release, though, not with the ZP8 pre-release you had reported this with. Maybe the final ZP8 release has fixed this problem in the meanwhile?
Hi madshi,
First, thank you very much for this extensive testing.
The bug does occur here regardless of the ZP build, this includes ZP8 final.
Strange if you've copied the exact ZP settings from my report and weren't able to reproduce the issue, as it happens most often here (8/10). (ZP8 final/madVR 0.79/nvidia 285.58whql)
Now I found a workaround, which involves ZP auto-reloading the media right after frequency switch. It works wonders : ZP is restored to its "normal" state (no crash on seek due, no slow ZP interace painted on screen) and madVR keeps playing the media as if nothing happened.. but I don't think I should resort to be doing that in the first place ^^;
Anyway, thanks for trying to reproduce. Right now I can't think of any other setting from madVR or ZP that could have an impact on the bug, but I'll keep experimenting..
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Old 15th December 2011, 02:31   #11459  |  Link
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Originally Posted by hellbringer616 View Post
I'm having an issue with MadVR, which is basically preventing me from using this amazing plugin..

And that is, fullscreen interface is broken.. No volume adjust, not seeking, nothing..

I was reading on page 840 in this thread here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...=1#post1544864 that it was pseudo fixed with MPC-HC 3011. I am using the main download from the home page (3456) and it's not working..
If you are using Fullscreen exclusive mode, you will only see madVR's own seek bar. Try disabling it and you should see the player's controls.

The only thing I miss when using FSE is having time in the seek bar. (both when hovering over a section on the bar, and having a current/total at the end of it)
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Old 15th December 2011, 06:54   #11460  |  Link
joe42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
If you are using Fullscreen exclusive mode, you will only see madVR's own seek bar. Try disabling it and you should see the player's controls.
How's that? I have madVR in FSE mode, and I have a nice MPC-HC bar the pops up with seeking, time, volume, etc.

Just go into MPC-HC's view menu and make sure you have the features you want checked.

Also, for some reason you have to have MPC-HC's auto-hide (in the fullscreen settings) set to something other than 0. I use 1 sec.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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