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Old 6th June 2011, 22:18   #8001  |  Link
janos666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
would it be possible for madVR to give priority always to 1080i59/60 when both 1080i59/60 (or 1080i29/30) and 1080p59/60 are on the list?
I think it covers 99% of the possible needs if you list these formats when you want your display to do the deinterlacing: 1080p23, 1080i50, 1080i59 and these when you wish to do i with other software filters: 1080p23, 1080p50, 1080p59 or 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60, 1080p72 (depending on your display).

I use the interlaced settings with my PDP and I set up my friend's LCD with the progressive (72Hz) settings right now. It works well with BD cinema movies, US and EU TV Shows. What else would you play?
Am I missing any usual materials? Because I think you shouldn't over-complicate the automatized mechanisms thinking about the "once in a year" situations.
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Old 6th June 2011, 22:25   #8002  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Also, how do you teach every decoder out there to communicate properly with a renderer made by a random guy in a random forum? That would be awesome, and people here would do it, but I'll be yet another hack in a world full of hacks.
Most decoders do only a very cheap RGB conversion for compat with renderers that don't accept YUV format anyway, and do not let you configure any of the properties required for proper conversion, so i don't accept that point.

If that format would be supported by ffdshow, the MPC-HC decoders and mine, there would already be pretty good coverage.

PS:
This is not a hack, its actually a proper solution.
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Old 6th June 2011, 22:33   #8003  |  Link
Darth Viorel
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Just out of interest: isn't sRGB the same as BT.709?
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Old 6th June 2011, 22:47   #8004  |  Link
Andy o
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I think it covers 99% of the possible needs if you list these formats when you want your display to do the deinterlacing: 1080p23, 1080i50, 1080i59
OK, just to be clear, this is completely apart from the problems above of wrong refresh rate change. This is assuming madVR works as intended, after madshi fixes the bugs.

I already use those options you listed (instead of 1080i50 I got 1080p50), but the problem is that there is no option to change to 1080p59 for 59p video. If I add 1080p59 to the list, then it works, but then my 59i videos also change refresh to that rate. It's not a simple matter of where to do the deinterlacing, it's that Pioneer displays do IVTC only up to 1080i, not 1080p.

So, if there's 24p content encoded in 59i, the 59i will change the rate to 59p and I'd lose IVTC from my display. If my refresh rate stays at 59i for that content, then IVTC is fine.

What I'm asking really should not affect people who don't use 59i, because they would not have 1080i59 in the madVR options. If you have it there, it's cause you wanna use it.

Last edited by Andy o; 6th June 2011 at 22:51.
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Old 6th June 2011, 22:57   #8005  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Blu-Ray and PAL all have different primary color coordinates. The differences are *NOT* dealt with by just using the correct YCbCr -> RGB matrix. E.g. if you take the color "red: 200; blue: 20; green: 20", this color is supposed to result in a different wavelength being produced by your display for NTSC content than for PAL or Blu-Ray.

Practically that means, if you display an NTSC SD DVD you have to calibrate your display to BT.601 primaries. If you display a Blu-Ray, you have to calibrate your display to BT.709 primaries. If you display a PAL DVD, you have to calibrate your display to PAL primaries. If you don't do that, you'll get incorrect colors. All of this applies even if you convert YCbCr -> RGB with the correct matrices!
well, it's a bit more complicated I'm afraid...as Bluray's mastered in Europe do use the EBU gamut, and >90% of the BD's mastered in the US still use SMPTE-C(coz they're mastered on CRT's).

YCbPr encoding/decoding color matrixes:
Rec. ITU-R BT.601-5 => SD
Rec. ITU-R BT.709-4 => HD

Gamuts :
- Rec 709: HD primaries (in theory at least)
- SMPTE RP 145: SMPTE-C primaries (US/Japan SD/ HD) => used for NTSC and 90% of the Blu-Rays(confirmed by the CEO of the ISF)
- EBU Tech. 3213: EBU primaries (Europe SD/HD) => used for PAL/SECAM and european Blu-rays



To avoid confusion, it's widely acknowledged to use those terms:
- SMPTE-C / EBU / HDTV for gamuts.
- REC-601 / REC-709 for color matrixes.

I have to admit that I really don't follow what's going on w/ all this in >0.61, but that's no biggy...also, compressed LUT's don't seem to be supported (yet)?

So far 0.62 has been dead smooth for me, but the main problem I got w/ >0.49 was getting really random dropped frames from time to time in 89.91/96Hz(0.49 is an unstoppable train when that option -that was removed in >0.49- is checked)...so I could only confirm whether the problem is actually fixed after watching a lot of movies. I still wish that option was back, but well..

You also seem to imply that the new LUT's only accept TV levels? But it's a bit confusing atm...I do feed PC levels to mVR. Anyway, my current main focus is on smoothness....I'll wait for the colorimetry options to become a bit clearer

Quote:
fixed: removed nonsense 9bit/10bit display bitdepth options
I use VGA to a CRT...the CLUT works in 10bit(double-checked w/ ARGYLL), so can it be considered as a 10bit display? It's 8bit w/ a 10bit CLUT on top...VGA is indeed 30bit AFAIK.

Last edited by leeperry; 6th June 2011 at 23:11.
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:03   #8006  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Most decoders do only a very cheap RGB conversion for compat with renderers that don't accept YUV format anyway, and do not let you configure any of the properties required for proper conversion, so i don't accept that point.

If that format would be supported by ffdshow, the MPC-HC decoders and mine, there would already be pretty good coverage.

PS:
This is not a hack, its actually a proper solution.
I was refering to the fact that decoders telling the renderers all info about the source so they can do proper, non-guessed YCbCr->RGB conversions would be fantastic, but there's no way of doing that right now without custom hacky stuff, and it'd only be supported by open source decoders and a closed source renderer. No future there I'm afraid.

Yes, it's a proper solution, but since it's unsupported by the DS ecosystem I consider it a hack. Keep in mind that joe average uses WMP and the like, and W7 already comes with decoders for all the important formats, no need for MPC-HC/ffdshow/LAV in there unfortunately. Getting this widely used would be extremely difficult.
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That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:09   #8007  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Yes, it's a proper solution, but since it's unsupported by the DS ecosystem I consider it a hack. Keep in mind that joe average uses WMP and the like, and W7 already comes with decoders for all the important formats, no need for MPC-HC/ffdshow/LAV in there unfortunately. Getting this widely used would be extremely difficult.
But WMP also cannot use madVR, so i still fail to see the point. Its not meant to replace any existing options.
People using WMP really don't even notice that the colors are off, tbh.

There is only one decoder which can do this high-quality and configurable RGB conversion, and thats ffdshow. So you're already very limited. Other decoders either output a YUV format, or if you force RGB out of them, they do who knows what for the conversion.

The whole idea is to simply enable a perfect high-quality playback chain for madVR (and other custom renderes), so if you use madVR, you don't have to rely on a decoder to produce proper RGB, you just use one of the supported decoders, and they provide all relevant information for madVR to do what it was designed for.
It'll come sooner or later anyway, at the latest for 3D playback, because the current info headers are not suited for that.

The main point is, there is nothing to lose, only to gain. If you prefer ffdshow doing the RGB conversion, sure, why not. But if you use ffdshow anyway, could as well let it supply the information to madVR to do it itself.
In addition, an option in madVR for "don't touch RGB" for those people that want it shouldn't be that bad to add.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 6th June 2011 at 23:29.
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:26   #8008  |  Link
e-t172
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
well, it's a bit more complicated I'm afraid...as Bluray's mastered in Europe do use the EBU gamut, and >90% of the BD's mastered in the US still use SMPTE-C(coz they're mastered on CRT's).

Gamuts :
- Rec 709: HD primaries (in theory at least)
- SMPTE RP 145: SMPTE-C primaries (US/Japan SD/ HD) => used for NTSC and 90% of the Blu-Rays(confirmed by the CEO of the ISF)
- EBU Tech. 3213: EBU primaries (Europe SD/HD) => used for PAL/SECAM and european Blu-rays
Wait… you're basically telling us that there is no way to know for sure which gamut to use based on information in the source? Meaning we can never be sure that we're using the right gamut and getting the right color? That's quite shocking…
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:32   #8009  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Wait… you're basically telling us that there is no way to know for sure which gamut to use based on information in the source? Meaning we can never be sure that we're using the right gamut and getting the right color? That's quite shocking…
If the encode is good, it should be in the stream headers.
I'm not sure i actually have a european Blu-ray to check this, sure i have european releases, but most are US movies .. i dont think they remaster the video, do they? :d

The Blu-ray spec at least says that you're supposed to use BT.709 primaries.
I think it would be quite moronic if they encode movies to look good on their professional super expensive displays, wouldn't they be smart enough to make it look good on a consumer HDTV? Thats what they are mastering it for, afterall.

BTW, i rather have some infos from a Tech then a CEO.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 6th June 2011 at 23:49.
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:32   #8010  |  Link
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Wow, deep discussions....

You guys mind taking a quick break to answer my question about levels?

What should I set the option of levels for MadVR if I'm using Lav Splitter, Lav Cuvid, ffdshow raw processor [sharpen] (output=YV12), to MadVR? Should I select TV or PC levels? How do I check to see if the levels are compressed/expanded?

My video card is a Nvidia and the Nvidia Control Panel setting is set to output RGB. TV is a Sony LCD connected via HDMI.

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Old 6th June 2011, 23:39   #8011  |  Link
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Wow, deep discussions....

You guys mind taking a quick break to answer my question about levels?

What should I set the option of levels for MadVR if I'm using Lav Splitter, Lav Cuvid, ffdshow raw processor [sharpen] (output=YV12), to MadVR? Should I select TV or PC levels? How do I check to see if the levels are compressed/expanded?

My video card is a Nvidia and the Nvidia Control Panel setting is set to output RGB. TV is a Sony LCD connected via HDMI.

Hi,
I have the KDL-40EX500 series from Sony and I find the TV Levels set in madVR better FOR THIS PARTICULAR PANEL. 0-255 gives me too much B/W contrasty picture - black is too black and white is too white. Just watch some movies with both modes and then you will surely see / decide.
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:46   #8012  |  Link
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can someone help a noob

i have a few ripped blurays in bdmv folders that a currently play with TMT which uses hardware acceleration

can i play just the m2ts with MadVR and MPC-HC?
i have a dual core 2.7 but the cpu goes to max and it wont play

thanks
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:48   #8013  |  Link
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Why not just play the BDMV folder itself? Open the index.bdmv file with MPC-HC. But you will need to give us more information. What video decoder are you using? What splitter?
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Old 6th June 2011, 23:52   #8014  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post
Hi,
I have the KDL-40EX500 series from Sony and I find the TV Levels set in madVR better FOR THIS PARTICULAR PANEL. 0-255 gives me too much B/W contrasty picture - black is too black and white is too white. Just watch some movies with both modes and then you will surely see / decide.
Pluto
I don't think the selection is a personal 'choice'....there is a correct setting if you don't want compressed or expanded levels. After the correct setting is selected you will then need to calibrate your television to the settings.
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:03   #8015  |  Link
janos666
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Originally Posted by pacemaker1000 View Post
can i play just the m2ts with MadVR and MPC-HC?
Yes, it's the simplest way if the whole movie is contained by a single m2ts file. But some DBs split the movie into many m2ts files to offer you different versions (Theatrical Cut, Director's cut, Unrated, Extended, etc) on the same disk. In this case you need to open the correct playlist file (from the playlist folder).

I don't know if there is a more objective way for that but I usually open the one with the longest runtime.

----

@n3w813

And what is the correct choice if your display device has limited and full range settings too but the physical precision of the display is unknown or known as significantly lower than 8-bit without internal dithering (like every PDP and many LCDs).
I guess it's the full range but simply because it contains more data. Otherwise, it could be the limited if your display handles the full range input but it compresses it back to limited range during the internal processing (which is hard to tell if it happens with high precision because you probably need to count the gray shades manually on a gradient ). I think 10-bit output would make this dilemma much less significant.

An example: 8-bit gradient test videos look smooth without dithering and limited range output, full range output looks horrible without dithering but it's smooth with dithering. However, you can't always trust in dithering.
A special case when your display applies "undefeatable" noise reduction algorithms which can partially filter out the dithering noise too (some and not only a few HDTVs). And another example (which could be combined with the previous one) when the display already works with heavy dithering (every PDPs, but some of them is really noisy and use an awfully simple noise patter. -> even the expensive models, like some Panasonic PDPs -> that's why I prefer the Samsung PDPs with much finer dithering noise which really works for my eyes, not like the Panasonic joke but some people would probably argue with me about this, and this is not that topic...).


----


@madshi

Did you think about the possibility to somehow output YCC 4:2:2 for HDTVs? JanWillem says he has some ideas to make it possible, so I think it's theoretically possible...
(Did you even read my arguments why would it be "essential" for many HDTV owners (probably many HTPC users) even if they doesn't really know/care(yet) about it?)

Last edited by janos666; 7th June 2011 at 00:27.
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:11   #8016  |  Link
leeperry
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you're basically telling us that there is no way to know for sure which gamut to use based on information in the source? Meaning we can never be sure that we're using the right gamut and getting the right color?
There clearly isn't any way to automatically "guess" the gamut that was used during mastering...the same way there is no way to "guess" whether 25fps is genuine PAL or sped up cinema NTSC.

You can detect the decoding matrix(601/709) if it was added to video stream headers, but no can do about the gamut being used during mastering.

Ideally(and I made this feature request to madshi a while back), we'd need some automatic rules like:
-23.976: SMPTE-C(that you could always change to EBU using a hotkey if it was mastered in Europe)
-25: EBU(it could also be HDTV, so you could always swap it if need be)
-29.97: SMPTE-C(it's most likely SD VIDEO NTSC, but it could also be HDTV if it's HD)

You'll find some food for thoughts in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1038602
Quote:
Tom Stites has stated that almost all material is mastered on SMPTE-C monitors and that Rec 709 monitors are rarely used.
It's a fact that the hero of CARS will be never as deep red in the movie as he is on the movie poster...the video industry went cheap and decided to use the royalties-free SMPTE-C gamut, and orangey red is part of the kludge

The CEO of the french ISF used to keep a BD list on his website as to whether you should use EBU or SMPTE-C..but it basically boiled down to: mastered in the US: SMPTE-C / mastered in Europe: EBU. The ISF takes care of the (free) calibration worldwide on those high-end Samsung DLP projectors(that were blessed by Joe Kane). You even get direct access buttons on their remote to map gamuts on the fly, goodness gracious!

Some mastering houses are said to use a 3DLUT at the very very last stage to map SMPTE-C to HDTV....but IRL, most bluray's don't go through this stage apparently.

All I can say is that IME european BD's look washed out in SMPTE-C(the smallest gamut ever) and US/JAP BD's look oversaturated in EBU/HDTV...I'd even dare saying that using the right gamut seems to increase the subjective CR, because the colors are simply as accurate as the mastering engineer saw them...they don't "overlap" each other anymore, so to speak

Another testimonial of gamut mapping goodness: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...4&postcount=90
Quote:
no more sunburnt faces
The first time I watched a US HD movie in SMPTE-C on my DLP projector will always remain deeply imprinted in my brain...wow, proper colors! yay, about ******* time \o/

It's like Reclock, once you've seen the light...you're doomed

This said, I'm very pleased to see that mVR is finally diving into the colorimetry nitty gritty

Last edited by leeperry; 7th June 2011 at 00:54.
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:12   #8017  |  Link
Plutotype
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I don't think the selection is a personal 'choice'....there is a correct setting if you don't want compressed or expanded levels. After the correct setting is selected you will then need to calibrate your television to the settings.
Calibration of the TV is a must. But when feeding the LCD with video, one thing is for sure the main culprit - avoiding crushed blacks and whites. In my ATI settings I have RGB full ( 4:4:4 ) and madVR is set it to TV levels. If you manage to calibrate your SONY to accept PC levels and keep the picture detailed and without B/W being crushed, than you can of course use the PC levels. I have not managed that, other would say - the settings would have to be very extreme to believe it is correct.
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:14   #8018  |  Link
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hi guys, i got a problem here... i dunno how to calibrate madVR to my LCD monitor it said that i should provide a gamut and grayscale measurements for my monitor, so how I'm going to do that?
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:48   #8019  |  Link
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I think we need "Display Calibration with madVR + yCMS FAQ" in one of the fist posts.
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Old 7th June 2011, 00:51   #8020  |  Link
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For the sake of every non-German, you might wish to change Strg to Ctrl. ;D
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