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Old 5th June 2011, 21:12   #7921  |  Link
madshi
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What happened to making the SD or HD selection based on the pixel width of the video?
That's still the case. What do you mean?
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:18   #7922  |  Link
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madshi, thanks for the nice update!

Made some tests of 0.62. Playback of 60fps files on 60Hz is very smooth with 8 pre-presented frames (no glitches). Very rare glitches with 4 pre-presented frames. Practically the same as 0.61 or maybe a little better.

I've noticed some improvement in playback of 25fps videos on my 60Hz display, I think it's better than 0.61. And D3D11 is now better and smoother than D3D9. I think it's close to EVR.

Some words about new dithering setting. My display has "virtual 10-bit" panel (8-bit + FRC) but in madVR my best setting is 7-bit. It is the best tradeoff between noise and banding (used colors.ytp for the tests).

Last edited by Gleb Egorych; 5th June 2011 at 21:20.
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:20   #7923  |  Link
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Sorry I kind of clarified my own question and edited it. How do I know whether my monitor is using 601 or 709 though? When I calibrate my monitor, it's done for photo editing (2.2 at 6500K) on an NEC EA231WMi.

Edit: There's actually a drop down option for BT 709 I just realized.

Should I assume to use BT 601 until I create my own profile for BT 709?

Last edited by JarrettH; 5th June 2011 at 21:28.
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:29   #7924  |  Link
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Some words about new dithering setting. My display has "virtual 10-bit" panel (8-bit + FRC) but in madVR my best setting is 7-bit. It is the best tradeoff between noise and banding (used colors.ytp for the tests).
Interesting.

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Sorry I kind of clarified my own question and edited it. How do I know whether my monitor wants 601 or 709 though? When I calibrate my monitor, it's done for photo editing (2.2 at 6500K) on an NEC EA231WMi.

There's actually a drop down option for BT 709 I just realized.

Should I assume to use BT 601 until I create my own profile for BT 709?
I don't really know for sure. 2.2 at 6500K is correct for both BT.601 and BT.709, I think? I'm not really the expert in this area, I'm always asking yesgrey for backup when such questions come up...

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So do you have to change the BT space depending on the video you playback now? I just use EVR-CP for DVDs, but everything else with madvr varies
No, you shouldn't have to change anything depending on the video you playback. You should set up the display "properties" once and then forget about it. madVR should automatically perform all necessary conversions, depending on whether you play PAL, NTSC or HD content. madVR just wants to know what your display is calibrated to (or nearest to) so the conversions are done in the best possible way.

Last edited by madshi; 5th June 2011 at 21:31.
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:30   #7925  |  Link
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how do you calibrate yCMS for use with madVR? is there a separate package i need to get and place in the madVR folder?
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:32   #7926  |  Link
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@madshi

Many thanks for this update. Even with the default settings (which I always stick to), the colors on my display seem far more natural on the content I have tested and I have also noticed the PQ seems slightly sharper as well on default settings - anyone else noticed that ?
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:34   #7927  |  Link
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how do you calibrate yCMS for use with madVR? is there a separate package i need to get and place in the madVR folder?
Just use the controls in the madVR settings dialog. It will offer to download the separate yCMS package for you. It should all go automatically (after you confirm that you're ok with that).

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Many thanks for this update. Even with the default settings (which I always stick to), the colors on my display seem far more natural on the content I have tested and I have also noticed the PQ seems slightly sharper as well on default settings - anyone else noticed that ?
Wow, you're the second person who reports a noticeable quality improvement. Didn't really expect that. But hey - good news!
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:40   #7928  |  Link
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Just use the controls in the madVR settings dialog. It will offer to download the separate yCMS package for you. It should all go automatically (after you confirm that you're ok with that).
I have selected it and clicked apply, madVR doesn't ask for anything, and it has net access, even restarted the player
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:52   #7929  |  Link
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I have selected it and clicked apply, madVR doesn't ask for anything, and it has net access, even restarted the player
When you activate the "calibrate this display by using yCMS" option, a new tab named "yCMS" should appear. In that tab you need to provide primary/gamut measurements for your display (and eventually grayscale measurements, too, but that's optional). If you don't provide gamut measurements, yCMS has no job to do, that's why madVR doesn't even try to download it in that case.

I understand that this behaviour might be confusing. I'll consider changing the settings dialog so that it forces you to enter gamut measurements when you activate the "calibrate this display by using yCMS" option.
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Old 5th June 2011, 21:54   #7930  |  Link
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guess i best start reading on how to do that then
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:28   #7931  |  Link
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Hmmmm... I like short logs. But these logs are so short that there's simply not enough information in them. Did you cut them down? Playback has barely started in these logs.
I did not. The problem is that playback wouldn't start and I would be stuck with a black screen.

It looks like either 0.62 and/or the new Nvidia drivers have fixed this now, as I don't seem to be having problems using the switcher.
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That mostly applies to DOWNscaling, though. I'm not sure if linear light scaling brings much benefit for UPscaling, which is what most madVR users do.
I don't have access to a machine with Photoshop right now (easiest way for me to test it) but I know that many of the high end hardware video scalers boast about the improvements that doing their scaling and gamut correction in linear light brings. Perhaps it matters more for downscaling, but I was under the impression it applied everywhere, especially if chroma may be getting upscaled and luma is not.

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(4) 6233638: It was you who preferred Bicubic for chroma upscaling, correct? Please recheck your preferences with v0.62.
It is, I'm looking forward to spending a fair bit of time testing this.

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(5) Please note that madVR now accepts 4:2:2 connections. It is now *your* duty to make sure the decoder outputs the optimal format (which is usually 4:2:0).
Is there a preferred format? I have stuck with YV12 up to this point. Should I just enable both NV12 and YV12 and let the decoder decide?



A couple of questions about the new options:
You now have the option to specify 10-bit for the display. Does this mean FSE will now output greater than 10-bit? (and could you please add it to the OSD if that is the case?)

From testing in Windowed mode, as bringing up the preferences kicks you out of FSE (a keyboard shortcut might be a useful addition) using 7-bit seems to work best on my "10-bit" LCD - though that may just be because it's only getting 8-bit sent to it, and 7-bit's dithering masks the edges slightly better with colors.ytp


I'm definitely excited about being able to leave my display calibrated to 2.20 for desktop work, and having madVR output 2.35 gamma (what film is intended to be played back at) without changing display presets.

Currently I have display and target output both set to 2.35. In theory, this should be no different from 2.20, is that correct?



A problem I'm having that happened occasionally in 0.61, and now more frequently in 0.62, is that if I leave FSE by any method other than hitting CTRL + Enter, I get massive amounts of dropped frames. Usually alt-tabbing to something else and back to MPC-HC fixes this. It's not a major issue, as I will watch in FSE, but it's a pain to have it happen when I just wanted to quickly change subtitle settings etc.

Last edited by 6233638; 5th June 2011 at 22:36.
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:39   #7932  |  Link
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@madshi - holy snikes man! I have to concur with the others who say that DVD PQ is VASTLY improved! I have my TV calibrated to BT.709. Whatever you did to the color space changed the clarity of the PQ immensely. It now beats PDVD10 which was my gold standard for DVD...until now. Fantastic!
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:43   #7933  |  Link
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I don't have access to a machine with Photoshop right now (easiest way for me to test it) but I know that many of the high end hardware video scalers boast about the improvements that doing their scaling and gamut correction in linear light brings.
Hardware video scalers? You mean like HQV Realta and Gennum? AFAIK they don't do linear light scaling!

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Is there a preferred format? I have stuck with YV12 up to this point. Should I just enable both NV12 and YV12 and let the decoder decide?
There is no preferred 4:2:0 format from madVR's point of view. I don't know if decoders prefer a specific format.

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You now have the option to specify 10-bit for the display. Does this mean FSE will now output greater than 10-bit? (and could you please add it to the OSD if that is the case?)
No, not yet. I will remove the 9bit and 10bit options in the next build, they make currently no sense.

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From testing in Windowed mode, as bringing up the preferences kicks you out of FSE (a keyboard shortcut might be a useful addition) using 7-bit seems to work best on my "10-bit" LCD - though that may just be because it's only getting 8-bit sent to it, and 7-bit's dithering masks the edges slightly better with colors.ytp
FWIW, the "colors.ytp" is supposed to show slight edges between all those cubes. Please don't look for the cube edges. What you should look for is any kind of "movement" in the picture. If you get the impression that anything in the image is moving, then the dither strength is too low. The "colors.ytp" should only change colors, there should be no visible movement. Try disabling dithering completely as a test. Then you'll see what kind of movement I mean.

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I'm definitely excited about being able to leave my display calibrated to 2.20 for desktop work, and having madVR output 2.35 gamma (what film is intended to be played back at) without changing display presets.

Currently I have display and target output both set to 2.35. In theory, this should be no different from 2.20, is that correct?
Having both at 2.35 should be no different than having both at 2.20, that is correct. I'm curious to hear whether letting madVR "modify" your display gamma works well or not. I hope it does.

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@madshi - holy snikes man! I have to concur with the others who say that DVD PQ is VASTLY improved! I have my TV calibrated to BT.709. Whatever you did to the color space changed the clarity of the PQ immensely. It now beats PDVD10 which was my gold standard for DVD...until now. Fantastic!
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:50   #7934  |  Link
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I have a specific test video section for testing DVD quality. I used it to hammer on ArcSoft until they fixed DVD quality for the AMD cards in TMT5. PDVD10 was literally the best I'd seen on it until now. madVR before wasn't BAD, but, it wasn't as good as PDVD which was odd since I use the PDVD video decoder to decode all my video. Anyway, this particular video will show any kind of colorspace issues and I really should have picked up on that before with madVR....it was too dark. The movie and scene I'm referring to? Empire Strikes Back, lightsaber battle with Vader. Look at his suit. That has such an awesome diversity of black levels that it shows pretty quickly whether there's an issue or not. madVR now actually slightly beats out PDVD for those scenes for me. So, again, well done. That's pretty amazing since you weren't intending to "fix" anything!
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:51   #7935  |  Link
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Either its me seeing things, wanting to believe, tripping out, or migrain meds kicking in, but batman begins and the dark night look different on my TV with new madVR, colours look better
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:53   #7936  |  Link
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The only real way to tell if it's "better" is to compare it with something. I don't necessarily rely on my eyes as the power of suggestion is pretty powerful sometimes. Hence why I just compared my favorite scene with PDVD.
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Old 5th June 2011, 22:58   #7937  |  Link
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I used older version of madvr, without using 3dlut, i will look again in the morning, maybe a fresh brain and fresh eyes might bring more comprehensive results
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Old 5th June 2011, 23:05   #7938  |  Link
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Indeed.

madshi, on that particular Empire Strikes Back video (it's an MKV ripped from the DVD using MakeMKV so no DVD nav issues or any of that). I'm using J. River's MC16 these days and when I hit stop MC16 crashes:

Faulting application name: Media Center 16.exe, version: 16.0.103.0, time stamp: 0x4de951e6
Faulting module name: madvr.ax_unloaded, version: 0.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x4debb286
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x4a40457a
Faulting process id: 0x690
Faulting application start time: 0x01cc23c87e4ac9aa
Faulting application path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 16\Media Center 16.exe
Faulting module path: madvr.ax
Report Id: 5e27a91c-8fbe-11e0-9e0a-001fd080d928

Doesn't seem to happen on blu-ray rips. Is this an MC16 bug do you think?
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Old 5th June 2011, 23:06   #7939  |  Link
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MadShi: i got a homemade 2:35:1 masking system and i use it on the lower part of my 16:9 screen and i would really like to see your seekbar to stay inside of the movie even when i resize 2:35:1 to 16:9 (ffdshow move blackbar to the lower part of the screen) would this be possible?? it would really mean alot to me
Properly supporting special projection setups is on my to do list (I have a CIH projection setup myself). I don't know if I will be able to comfortably support your special setup, though. Maybe yes, maybe no, can't say.
forget about that... i was a but quick when i wrote the question....


it cannot be a good solution to do it that way... first i have to do for this to work with my remuxes i have to use 2 functions in FFDSHOW first CROP the movie to 1920x800 from 1920x1080 and then move the blackbars by using RESIZE and i can't figure out a way for FFDSHOW to know when its playing a 16:9 or a 2.35:1 movie... so... i got a jvc x3/RS40 so i got a rs232 port that i control with my keyboard or my android phone to move the picture (and much more.. light, power, music) so i have given up on the FFDSHOW solution but i do have a question for you and yesgray ..

post processing with FFDSHOW that way couldn't have been good for PQ, right?
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Old 5th June 2011, 23:09   #7940  |  Link
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New major issue: I cannot seem to get 4:2:0 into madVR now. Upsampling is being applied before the video gets into it.

This is with either the latest ffdshow or LAV CUVID outputting YV12 or NV12.

Easiest test is to set all scaling to nearest neighbour. In all versions up to 0.62, this looked awful. In 0.62, it's smoothed over. (especially noticeable with low-res flash videos, such as the test I used here)

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Hardware video scalers? You mean like HQV Realta and Gennum? AFAIK they don't do linear light scaling!
Lumagen boxes do. (or at least did, when I was beta-testing the Radiance)

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No, not yet. I will remove the 9bit and 10bit options in the next build, they make currently no sense.
Ah, that explains why they looked so bad!

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FWIW, the "colors.ytp" is supposed to show slight edges between all those cubes. Please don't look for the cube edges. What you should look for is any kind of "movement" in the picture. If you get the impression that anything in the image is moving, then the dither strength is too low. The "colors.ytp" should only change colors, there should be no visible movement. Try disabling dithering completely as a test. Then you'll see what kind of movement I mean.
Thanks, that's what I noticed when going above 8-bit. 8-bit showed no movement, but 7-bit helped mask the edges a bit. (and 6-bit looked the same as 7-bit with more dithering)

Last edited by 6233638; 5th June 2011 at 23:18.
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