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Old 9th May 2010, 07:16   #2561  |  Link
makakam
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To me playback is smooth but still I can see that there are at least 10 frames dropped all the time. What can be done to prevent it? I am using madVr with mpc hc, core avc as a decoder, reclock and windows seven 32-bit, aero on.
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Old 9th May 2010, 07:58   #2562  |  Link
Razoola
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I think given that madshi says he may have found a potential bug in his code that is related to which vsync frame video frames should be presented that people with judder problems should wait until the next release. I myself await it for the fix to allow madVR to work on some nvidia gfx cards with their latest drivers.
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Old 9th May 2010, 23:09   #2563  |  Link
janos666
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Nice improvements, it is much more stable now. It won't crash during fast stop/start/framestep/jump actions anymore. It works perfectly on my desktop PC (HD5850 and Q6600@3,6Ghz).

And it also works with new Forceware drivers. But I can not use it on my laptop so far. I think a mobile 8600GT with a C2D@2.0Ghz won't be enough.
I tried to apply all of the four performance options and set all resize modes to "narest neighbourhood" and overclock the VGA (from 400/800/400) to 600/1500/440 but the result is always a slide show.
It seems like the problem is the CPU. I have constant 50% CPU load during this slide show. There was someone here who could use this renderer with a desktop 8600GT which would imply that I really have a CPU limit. (But he could do it with uncompatible 19x.xx forceware drivers, so he has to be a blessed man or something like that anyway... DD)
It is weird because I have nearly the same CPU loads with this renderer on my desktop PC as I have with other renderers (like EVR). FFDShow is multi-threaded, I can produce 100% CPU load with a Blu-Ray sample and EVR. So, I do not understand this constant 50% CPU load thing... My be I still have some bugs with this renderer and Geforce VGAs. (I am using the latest 197.75 now)
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:41   #2564  |  Link
peter0328
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Is .12 supposed to work on GTX 295 Quad SLI with the 196.21 drivers? I'd like to know this before I start trying to get it to work since it would be pointless if if hasn't fixed the driver bug lol.
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Old 10th May 2010, 04:38   #2565  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post
Is .12 supposed to work on GTX 295 Quad SLI with the 196.21 drivers? I'd like to know this before I start trying to get it to work since it would be pointless if if hasn't fixed the driver bug lol.
It does not work with my gtx295, you have to go back to 191.07. I ran madshis debug build however and he says the issue will be fixed in the next release. I suggest you await that.
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Old 10th May 2010, 08:19   #2566  |  Link
nevcairiel
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I get frame drops when i switch between window/fullscreen in MPC-HC, so thats kinda tainting the nice "0 frame drops" display, but other then that, its working smoothly without any frame drops at all. Good job
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Old 10th May 2010, 12:59   #2567  |  Link
Neeto
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Looking at a new card.
Is a GeForce 210 GPU with 512MB DDR2 at 600MHz enough for madVR with heavy duty options?

Thanks Neeto
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Old 10th May 2010, 13:02   #2568  |  Link
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You might need something twice as powerful depending on your scaler settings.
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Old 10th May 2010, 13:05   #2569  |  Link
Neeto
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So something like a 220 GPU with these setting?

Luma Upscaling: Spline36
Luma Downscaling: Spline64
Chroma Resampling: Mitchell-Netravali
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Old 10th May 2010, 13:12   #2570  |  Link
namaiki
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I dunno, but also what resolution source and screen?

My 9600M GT can do the above settings (doubling the resolution of 1280x720 video) in 21ms (say avg frame time is ~42ms).

The 210 is below the 9600M GT and the 220 is just above.

Last edited by namaiki; 10th May 2010 at 13:19.
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Old 10th May 2010, 13:40   #2571  |  Link
Neeto
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I'll be running 1920x1080 resolution to Samsung 46" B550 LCD
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:25   #2572  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepheas View Post
I don't know why when I use Madvr there's so much cpu usage ?

When I use Madvr with an h.264 file I have a cpu occupation of about 70%
While with haali renderer I have a cpu occupation of 30%

Why Madvr causes so much cpu usage ? He's supposed to do all the work with my graphic card ?

The result is that I must overclock my little pentium dual core (2ghz) to about 2.5ghz to play the video without stutters.

The other point is simply the stability when I start my video. Sometimes media player classic doesn't respond. Sometimes It does.... I've got a gt240 and I'm running seven.
These problems may all be caused by a problem between madVR and the current NVidia driver. The next madVR may fix all that (or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
However, there is a very good chance the Reclock method should work too. I guess it depends on how much of your valuable time it would take to offer the option.
It might work, too, but only in exclusive mode or in Aero. Furthermore I don't expect it to work *better* than the madVR method (at least after all madVR bugs are fixed). So I don't really see any benefit of offering a Reclock specific rendering mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
Offering this advanced option would get around the possible current synchronised judder problem madVR may have, but more importantly it would let people like me who use Reclock vsync correction in PDVD/TMT for Blu-ray disc playback use it also for madVR. Alternatively, we have to use a .reg file to change Reclock settings before using each player to manually turn on or off vsync correction.
Does Reclock's vsync correction cause problems with madVR? I don't think it will cause problems, when I implement special support for Aero + exclusive mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pankov View Post
please, do write an Aero solution, and if possible do it before the exclusive one.
You want Aero first. Others want exclusive mode first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
Sorry, I mean for upscaling the defaults are very soft.
Default for (luma) upscaling is Lanczos! Which is the sharpest scaler madVR currently offers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
I´m not sure if this is helpful but from experience (having had a CRT until recently before I got the LCD) there is one thing (consider it rather subjective, since 0.12 wasn´t released when I still had my CRT) that I cam across, too. With 0.11 I _never_ could get smooth playback on my CRT on any files, even when playing around a lot with my refresh rates. madVR dropped frames constantly. I have tested 0.11 again with my LCD and it seems that it behaves completely different than my CRT did (I had it connected via BNC, not D-SUB) re: a stable display refresh rate. Because when I´m looking at madVR´s OSD my LCD only ever fluctuates at the very last 2 digits while my CRT had a hard time of keeping it´s refresh rate constant at all, it fluctuated like crazy. 0.11 even sometimes reported my display refresh completely wrong, at least that´s what the OSD showed, so I´m under the assumption that madVR could not calculate some things that it needs to display a smooth image. Just wanted to share that with you, not sure if that helps anything.
A madVR 0.11 problem report does not help me.

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Originally Posted by Grmpf View Post
I cross my fingers that the exclusive mode will fix it
I've never seen tearing in exclusive mode yet. So yes, exclusive mode should definitely fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
I don't understand why people think aero is a good thing. In my experiance aero (on win7 x64) is only good in a single display set up, as soon as you have two active displays everything goes wrong with aero enabled.

I have found that aero requires refresh rates of both displays to be good multiples of each other, if not you'll get judder caused by aero thats not seen by the video renderer. For example if you play a 25fps media on a secondary display with 50hz refresh rate you will not get smooth playback unless the primary display also has a refresh rate at a multiple of 25hz. I have this problem with all renderers tried (haali,vmr9, madvr).
May be a problem with Aero. Nobody will stop you from disabling it. However, people with a dedicated HTPC (single display set up) should not have this problem. For them Aero may be a good solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makakam View Post
To me playback is smooth but still I can see that there are at least 10 frames dropped all the time.
Does the number increase during playback? It's relatively normal that at the beginning of playback there are some dropped frames because the queues are all empty. As long as there are no further dropped frames after 10 seconds of playback time, I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
And it also works with new Forceware drivers. But I can not use it on my laptop so far. I think a mobile 8600GT with a C2D@2.0Ghz won't be enough.
I don't know if the 8600GT will be fast enough or not. But the problem may also be driver related. Maybe the problem will go away with the next madVR version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
My 9600M GT can do the above settings (doubling the resolution of 1280x720 video) in 21ms (say avg frame time is ~42ms).

The 210 is below the 9600M GT and the 220 is just above.
The 220 may be fast enough for current madVR processing. But there's one thing to keep in mind: madVR only has basic processing capabilities right now. There's a very high probability that future madVR versions will add new processing options which will require much more processing power. Because of that my recommendation for a new GPU is this:

Get the fastest GPU you can afford and which fits your thermal/space/noise requirements. The faster, the better. That is, if you want to prepare for potential future madVR algorithms.
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:34   #2573  |  Link
pankov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You want Aero first. Others want exclusive mode first.
I'm not trying to argue with you - I value your work very much, I simply can't see the need / benefit of exclusive mode and it's limitations if we have a fully working "non-exclusive" mode. And also having in mind that Aero is the default mode for the new and I believe future Windows versions I think it'll have much wider acceptance than Exclusive mode ... also it doesn't require any changes in the software player (OSD / notifications).
That's just my $0.02.
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:54   #2574  |  Link
cyberbeing
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A GT 220 may have trouble scaling higher resolution 30fps content and definitely 60fps content quick enough with those settings. If you never watch anything except 24fps content, this may be a non-issue.

Another thing to keep in mind is that using a higher tiered scaler like Spline or Lanczos for Chroma Resampling would most likely absolutely kill that GPU when scaling content. Every other Chroma Resampler except Spline and Lanczos should be fine, so this may be a non-issue as well.

Something like a GeForce GT 240 (385 GFLOPS, 54.4GB/s GDDR5) or even better a 9800 GT (504 GFLOPS, 57.6GB/s GDDR3) would give you a lot more headroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
Sorry, I mean for upscaling the defaults are very soft.
Default for (luma) upscaling is Lanczos! Which is the sharpest scaler madVR currently offers.
This is incorrect, at least in any released version of madVR. The defaults only use Lanczos4 for luma downscaling. The very soft SoftCubic50 is used for luma upscaling.

The defaults are:
luma upsampler=SoftCubic50
luma downsampler=Lanczos4
chroma resampler=SoftCubic100

Last edited by cyberbeing; 10th May 2010 at 15:01.
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:56   #2575  |  Link
Jong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does Reclock's vsync correction cause problems with madVR? I don't think it will cause problems, when I implement special support for Aero + exclusive mode.
Well I'd hate to be definitive about something that we haven't seen yet.

But for sure it will cause problems if Reclock is unable to move the point "present()" returns by altering the reference clock. If madVR pins the start of presentation to a specific spot in the frame cycle, hence, with Aero or exclusive mode, average end of presentation is also fixed, there will be a serious problem if the Reclock target range does not coincide with the position madVR defines. Then, Reclock will try to bring end of presentation back into line by running the clock a little too fast or slow, but because madVR keeps "end of presentation" pinned Reclock will never stop and "rolling sync occurs" where there is a burst of judder every 20-60 secs, approx (frame rate and refresh rates not quite exact multiples of each other).

In principle it is possible to set madVR/Reclock so they both agree on the desired position of "end presentation". Then Reclock will turn off its vsync correction and all will be good. But that depends on madVR being able to control the av. end of presentation tightly enough that it always stays inside of the Reclock target. The MediaPortal guys felt that would be very difficult to achieve with their EVR CP renderer. Even if it were possible, if the madVR position is fixed and not compatible with that required for Reclock in other players (eg. TMT or PDVD) the user would still need to write to the registry to move the target before and after using madVR.

Last edited by Jong; 10th May 2010 at 15:08.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:21   #2576  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankov View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you - I value your work very much, I simply can't see the need / benefit of exclusive mode and it's limitations if we have a fully working "non-exclusive" mode. And also having in mind that Aero is the default mode for the new and I believe future Windows versions I think it'll have much wider acceptance than Exclusive mode ... also it doesn't require any changes in the software player (OSD / notifications).
Exclusive mode is the ultimate playback solution. It will always be better than Aero. Here's a list of key advantages of exclusive mode over Aero:

(1) the renderer has full control over everything
(2) DeepColor can be used
(3) probably necessary for 3D playback
(4) no additional GPU load caused by Aero
(5) works in all OSs, while Aero doesn't work in XP
(6) no problem with multi display setup (see Razoola's post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
This is incorrect, at least in any released version of madVR. The defaults only use Lanczos4 for luma downscaling. The very soft SoftCubic50 is used for luma upscaling.
That's a bug, then. SoftCubic50 was not intended to be used as Luma upscaling default...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
But for sure it will cause problems if Reclock is unable to move the point "present()" returns by altering the reference clock.
I don't see how Reclock could technically move the Present() return, at least when measured in system time. The Present() call returns after the next VSync. Are you saying that Reclock changes the (system) time when the VSync occurs? The only way to do that would be by changing the graphics mode timings (e.g. GPU pixel clock), as far as I can see, and I'm quite sure that Reclock is not doing that. Reclock is definitely able to do violence to the reference clock time. But such a change will only affect audio, not video, as far as I can see. I don't see what madVR would have to do with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
If madVR pins the start of presentation to a specific spot in the frame cycle, hence, with Aero or exclusive mode, average end of presentation is also fixed there will be a serious problem if the Reclock target range does not coincide with the position madVR defines. Then, Reclock will try to bring end of presentation back into line by running the clock a little too fast or slow, but because madVR keeps "end of presentation" pinned
Again: madVR has no control whatsoever over the "end of presention". This is controlled by Direct3D, respectively in exclusive mode by the VSync hardware interrupt. Please note that even in exclusive mode Present() will block, when all backbuffers are filled. If the queues are full (which should be the case), that means that virtually every Present() call will block, in exclusive mode. And the block is released by the VSync hardware interrupt. Present() will not block only if there are unused backbuffers. Which is not the normal situation, if all queues are full.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
Reclock will never stop and "rolling sync occurs" where there is a burst of judder every 20-60 secs (approx).
I don't really understand how madVR would cause Reclock any trouble, technically.

@Jong, I think the key problem is that I still don't understand how Reclock and madVR affect each other. Sure, if Reclock modifies the reference clock, madVR may schedule different frames for different VSync events. That I understand. But I just don't see how Reclock would have any effect on the hardware VSync interrupt. And as a result I don't see how madVR could cause any trouble because in the end madVR relies on Direct3D and in exclusive mode Direct3D relies on the VSync hardware interrupt. If you can explain to me why madVR could make problems to Reclock, and how Reclock can change the end of presentation (in *system time*), then maybe we can make a step forward...

Last edited by madshi; 10th May 2010 at 15:23.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:21   #2577  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
May be a problem with Aero. Nobody will stop you from disabling it. However, people with a dedicated HTPC (single display set up) should not have this problem. For them Aero may be a good solution.
Yes its certinally an Aero issue and not something caused by the renderer. I currently always disable Aero as it most instances it solves my judder issues. I use the MPC-HC disable desktop composition but this option is not available when using madVR. Is it possible you can add an option into madVR to disable Aero while madVR is doing its thing?
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:26   #2578  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsolidsnake86 View Post
http://web.tiscali.it/djsolidsnake86/video.mp4

if anyone want try madvr with this video, there is a very strange problem
I get a green line at the top with MPC-HC's decoder.
With CoreAVC, MPC-HC simply crashes.
With ffdshow it works fine.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:29   #2579  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't really see any benefit of offering a Reclock specific rendering mode.
mVR works like a charm w/ Relock if you disable the tearing fix in 0.11...but then you do get occasional tearing

It is my understanding that Overlay works so well with Reclock because it's more of a "passive" VR than anything else..and to many ppl Reclock is mandatory to get audio adaptation and perfectly smooth video. I realize Reclock is just a "dirty hack"(hence Slysoft not selling it, being impossible to technically support) but mVR looks so close to offer proper compatibility...FWIW, Beliyaal's EVR CP seems to work really really well.

One thing that's really weird to me is that you tell me that mVR knows exactly the VSYNC position at any given time, yet when I seek sometimes it works fine for 15 mins then it starts dropping frames...it is my understanding that Reclock pushes its tight timings assuming that the VR caught the fliptime perfectly, but that mVR simply did not.

I believe running Aero would fix all my problems altogether(as Aero seems to enforce VSYNC control on a permanent basis...very noticeable with HR's jitter OSD), too bad I like my XP box so much

Last edited by leeperry; 10th May 2010 at 15:32.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:58   #2580  |  Link
flanger216
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Originally Posted by Neeto View Post
So something like a 220 GPU with these setting?

Luma Upscaling: Spline36
Luma Downscaling: Spline64
Chroma Resampling: Mitchell-Netravali
My GT220 can handle those settings resizing to 1920x1080 @ 24fps. However, 30fps is threshold, and 60fps is nowhere close to usable. Not too many 60p sources around, but of course I come across 30i all the time, and I'm SOL for using a framerate-doubling deinterlacer.

So... probably want something a little faster.
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