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Old 26th February 2010, 15:59   #2241  |  Link
cyberlolo
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By the way, does anybody know if madshi continues with the development of this renderer?
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Old 26th February 2010, 21:12   #2242  |  Link
pirlouy
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From his last post, he's still working on it. But he has not respected Christmas gift !
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Old 26th February 2010, 21:39   #2243  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
From his last post, he's still working on it. But he has not respected Christmas gift !
Yes, but his last post was more than a month ago, and since then we haven't had any news from him. That's why I'm asking...
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Old 26th February 2010, 23:13   #2244  |  Link
cyberlolo
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yesgrey3, I need some more help, please.

What about this solution for my levels issue? Output Full RGB from the card (or Limited, there's no difference), set madVR to TV Levels (no conversion), but set my TV input to expect RGB Limited (16-235), so let the display make the conversion instead of ffdshow's levels filter. Then, ok, I'll have a compressed desktop, but for video, that would work, wouldn't it? I've checked it and lowering a bit the contrast in CCC, you get WTW too and without banding. What do you think?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 26th February 2010 at 23:21.
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Old 27th February 2010, 04:22   #2245  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
What do you think?
Use what looks better to you until you could use madVR with a 3DLUT for it, which should be the preferable option...
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Old 27th February 2010, 11:37   #2246  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
Use what looks better to you until you could use madVR with a 3DLUT for it, which should be the preferable option...
I agree, but I need your new version of cr3dlut to do so...

Ok, we'll keep waiting. Thanks again!

BTW, in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5558), sotti has made some tests with the YCbCr 4:4:4 output, that seems to show that YCbCr is no converted into RGB and then back to YCbCr in ATI cards, as the color accuracy matches the one achieved by a standalone Blu-Ray player.

Does this mean that the optimal pixel format for ATI cards is YCbCr instead of RGB as we were thinking until now?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 27th February 2010 at 12:04.
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Old 27th February 2010, 16:08   #2247  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Does this mean that the optimal pixel format for ATI cards is YCbCr instead of RGB as we were thinking until now?
If you want your HTPC to work simply as a Blu-ray player, without performing any corrections to the displayed image, then you should output as YCbCr. If you want to correct your display's flaws using your HTPC, you should output as RGB.
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Old 27th February 2010, 16:19   #2248  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
If you want your HTPC to work simply as a Blu-ray player, without performing any corrections to the displayed image, then you should output as YCbCr. If you want to correct your display's flaws using your HTPC, you should output as RGB.
From what you say, I think you're implying that RGB is still a better choice, aren't you?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 27th February 2010 at 16:23.
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Old 27th February 2010, 16:41   #2249  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
From what you say, I think you're implying that RGB is still a better choice, aren't you?
No. It really depends on what you need. If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I don't have one, and probably never will, so my personal choice will always be RGB.
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Old 27th February 2010, 16:48   #2250  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
No. It really depends on what you need. If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I don't have one, and probably never will, so my personal choice will always be RGB.
Nop, I have the HTPC connected directly to the TV by HDMI. So in my case, it's better Full RGB too. Thanks again!

Last edited by cyberlolo; 28th February 2010 at 02:17.
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Old 28th February 2010, 16:33   #2251  |  Link
cyberlolo
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There's some people asking (like me) if madshi continues with the development of this renderer, or if version 0.11 will be the last one. Does anyone know this? Why madshi hasn't post anything here for more than a month?
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Old 28th February 2010, 23:01   #2252  |  Link
cyberbeing
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He has become a clone of Haali.

Busy with his job and real-life, but slowly working on madVR in his very very limited free time.

It's not like madshi has stopped lurking around Doom9, he was last seen a week ago. Until he comes around this thread and announces he has halted any further development on madVR, assume it is still ongoing.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 28th February 2010 at 23:04.
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Old 28th February 2010, 23:04   #2253  |  Link
Andy o
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
No. It really depends on what you need. If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I don't have one, and probably never will, so my personal choice will always be RGB.
Forget color conversions (or lack thereof) for a moment. YCbCr output compresses the levels in not the best way, introducing a bit of banding, same as RGB Limited, on top of madVR's smooth output. Compare the three madvr outputs:

MPC-HC madVR, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)


This one is more relevant even. It's TMT3. We know madVR is converting to RGB for the card then to re-convert to YCbCr, but with TMT3 and the other commercial players it's speculated that the protected video path allows for direct YCC passthrough

TMT 3, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited

YCbCr here shows even more banding than with madVR. In this case I believe the YCbCr setting compresses levels, thus you need to choose dynamic range Full in Avivo which expands again.

Last edited by Andy o; 28th February 2010 at 23:11.
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Old 1st March 2010, 00:37   #2254  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I did not say it because I thought it was obvious, but when outputting in YCbCr you cannot use madVR, because it only outputs RGB, hence you will have a conversion from RGB to YCbCr at the drivers levels, which will result in quality losses.
So, when using madVR, RGB output is always the preferable option.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 21:18   #2255  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
He has become a clone of Haali.

Busy with his job and real-life, but slowly working on madVR in his very very limited free time.

It's not like madshi has stopped lurking around Doom9, he was last seen a week ago. Until he comes around this thread and announces he has halted any further development on madVR, assume it is still ongoing.
Well, regarding this question, madshi has confirmed by email that he hasn't stopped development. He's just waiting for his desk to free a bit, so that he can get back to madVR.

So now it's official that madVR is still in development. Great news.

Last edited by cyberlolo; 2nd March 2010 at 21:22.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 22:44   #2256  |  Link
JarrettH
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That's good to hear. I'd hate all these pages of posts to turn into some long hack workaround
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Old 3rd March 2010, 17:16   #2257  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Well, regarding this question, madshi has confirmed by email that he hasn't stopped development. He's just waiting for his desk to free a bit, so that he can get back to madVR.

So now it's official that madVR is still in development. Great news.
Thats real good news. I would love to see a new version even if its just to fix the non working issues with the newer nvidia drivers.
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Old 4th March 2010, 01:43   #2258  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Use what looks better to you until you could use madVR with a 3DLUT for it, which should be the preferable option...
yesgrey (of course, anyone can answer too), I have one more doubt about this issue. In some time, we'll have two options:

1) Set madVR to TV Levels (no conversion), graphics card output and TV input to Full RGB (0-255), and adjust TV brightness so that levels 0-16 are total black.

2) Use your new version of cr3dlut (when released) to have the output calibrated at 16-255, so we'd need nothing else to adjust in the TV.

With both of them we'll have an optimal levels calibration at 16-255 to watch videos with an HTPC outputting RGB: that is to say, levels 0-16 as total black, preserving wtw (to simplify, in this case we'll assume 255 peak white as optimal, although you adviced to set it at 245), and without banding. But which one of this two options is better, and why?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 4th March 2010 at 01:53.
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Old 4th March 2010, 11:27   #2259  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
But which one of this two options is better, and why?
IMHO, probably would be (2), because it would use better the on/off contrast ratio of your display, hence giving you images with a little more contrast, but it would not be as simple as that, because the gamma used will also have a big influence in the output image...
There are no strict rules in this. It will always depend on personal preferences...

Last edited by yesgrey; 4th March 2010 at 11:30.
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Old 4th March 2010, 13:11   #2260  |  Link
cyberlolo
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IMHO, probably would be (2), because it would use better the on/off contrast ratio of your display, hence giving you images with a little more contrast, but it would not be as simple as that, because the gamma used will also have a big influence in the output image...
There are no strict rules in this. It will always depend on personal preferences...
Ok, but I need some help to understand what's really going on with the PC Levels option in madVR, and what will be going on with your new version of cr3dlut. My question regards with this post of Don Munsil in AVSForum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=34):

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil
I honestly think clipping below reference black is not nearly as big a deal as clipping above reference white. I've seen some content that looks visibly changed when below-reference is clipped, and I assume mostly it's because those lower values affect the scaling and processing algorithms. On a CRT, a really low below-black value has the potential to affect the next pixel, pushing it up just a tad because of filtering, internal ringing, etc. On a fixed-pixel display, that's not necessarily going to happen if you get 1:1 pixel mapping, and I can't honestly say I've seen any visible artifact because of below-reference clipping in a situation like that. I still think there's no good reason to clip below 16; it's not like it's helpful in any way. The player/display shouldn't throw away the below-reference values and refuse to display them, even if you turn the brightness up. Certainly it makes calibration somewhat harder, and I'm at least open to the possibility that there could be subtle second-order effects of clipping those values.

But post-calibration all the values from 1-16 should end up producing the same value on your display and that value should be the blackest value the display can produce. Again, modulo some subtle potential effects when scaling and so forth.

Bottom line is simple: make the display act like a BVM. If there's any controversy, just check what a BVM does and copy that. BVM's don't hard-clip the values below 16 - they're there if you turn the brightness up. So just on general principles I'm against hard-clipping in consumer displays. If you turn up the brightness, the below-reference values should show up. And then you should turn the brightness back down.

The crazy thing to me is that someone had to go out of their way to clip outside the reference range in the displays that do so. It doesn't add anything of value. It doesn't make processing easier, or storage smaller, or chips cheaper. It's just a dumb error caused by misunderstanding the specs. It's very frustrating.

But whether or not displays should show the above-reference signal is an easy question. They should. The content was viewed all throughout the video production and mastering process on BVMs that do not clip above reference. And ALL content has some above-reference material. All of it. You can see the difference by switching from clipped to not-clipped. The not-clipped is correct, and the clipped is incorrect.

Some of the above-reference material is basically unimportant. It just doesn't change the image in any visible way. Some of it, on the other hand, is easily visible when you compare clipped to not-clipped. Does the image look basically OK if you clip? Yes, most of the time it does. But that proves nothing. If you clipped at 225 the image would still look OK most of the time. You could clip black at 25 instead of 16 and I bet a lot of viewers would say the image looked punchier. And in fact it would be punchier, with more contrast. But it would still be wrong, and it would still look different from a reference monitor. And making the video look like it does on a reference BVM is the goal.

Bottom line: there are visible differences in the image when you clip above 235. No professional monitor clips above 235. If you want your home system to look as close as possible to a pro monitor you will not clip above 235. Q.E.D.
Don
Well, now the problem is: using PC Levels in madVR, or using your new version of cr3dlut (let's say at 16-245 output), we'd be clipping blacks at 0-16 and whites at 235-255 (madVR in PC Levels) and 245-255 (using cr3dlut with yesgrey's optimal levels), wouldn't we?

If that's so, we'd be lossing much valuable info:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
Video is not supposed to stop at 235. It is expressly designed to extend to 254, and that is explicitly stated in the video standards. Further, this discussion we've had before is something of a simplified version that only deals with RGB. The YCbCr that's on the disc is 16-240 for chroma, and even assuming a hard clip right at 240 and at 235 for Y, this will still yield RGB values that are outside the nominal range upon conversion to RGB.

This occurs with a great deal of content, probably all content that has been handled well and has not been errantly clipped off. And even content that may have been hard-clipped in component will still yield values that are beyond 235.

YCbCr triplets that are clipped (to 16-235 for luma and 16-240 for chroma) will still yield RGB triplets that exceed 16-235 RGB range.

For instance, the perfectly legal YCbCr triplet of (200, 160, 150) in Rec.709 decodes to an RGB triplet of (250,181,240). Note that the component values don't even come anywhere close to the legal limit for video luma or chroma, yet they already exceed the nominal range in RGB for both red and blue. Unless an additional clip is imposed on the playback side in RGB (for no good reason), video values will regularly fall outside the nominal RGB range. An imposed clip at the playback side in RGB would change the color that was encoded on the disc, and I would argue that this is a detriment and a deviation from accuracy since this is not how it was observed(arbitrarily clipped) when mastered.

Examples:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...6&postcount=23
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...6&postcount=29
So, in this example, if we use madVR with PC Levels, or new version of cr3dlut set at 16-245, what would happen with all those triplets that have values exceeding the nominal range in RGB???

P.S. Sorry for the long post, but I really need to understand how this is working in order to achieve the better possible PQ.

Last edited by cyberlolo; 5th March 2010 at 01:57.
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