madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

Sounds like you need to set the brightness as low as it will go and adjust GAMMA.

Maybe, but GAMMA cannot be adjusted with the user controls of the TV. It needs to be done with the service menu, so I will make it when I ISF calibrate it. Until then, I'm afraid there's no solution?

But one question: don't you guys have this problem? it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?

[Mark_A_W]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

Maybe, but GAMMA cannot be adjusted with the user controls of the TV. It needs to be done with the service menu, so I will make it when I ISF calibrate it. Until then, I'm afraid there's no solution?

But one question: don't you guys have this problem? it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?

You adjust GAMMA at the source. You can adjust it in the ATi/Nvidia settings, by colour.

One day, I hope to do this adjustment using the madVR 3DLut.


And yes, I do care about wtw, which is one reason why I run full range and set my brightness on the display so that black is at 16ish (it's complex, the black level depends on the average picture level...).

(And the other reason to run full range unmolested 0-255 with Black at 16 and white at 235 is to avoid banding due to the evil levels expansion.)

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

I don't understand that madVR is designed for the possible highest quality over anything else, but it's not possible to have control over brightness and contrast so it can be perfectly calibrated (0-16 total black, and preserve grayscale up to 254). And again, that's seriously lowering the PQ!!

madVR is not yet finished, and of course that would be added.

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?

No you aren't. I also like to setup my projector in a similar way. For example, I like to use 10-245. 16-254 is not very good, because it crushes too much the blacks, and generally 245 is a good WTW limiting value. That's why I have changed cr3dlut to include a way for doing it. Though, I will need a little more time before releasing it. Juts be a little more patient. In the meanwhile, you could try using ffdshow's levels filter to achieve it.

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by yesgrey3

madVR is not yet finished, and of course that would be added.


No you aren't. I also like to setup my projector in a similar way. For example, I like to use 10-245. 16-254 is not very good, because it crushes too much the blacks, and generally 245 is a good WTW limiting value. That's why I have changed cr3dlut to include a way for doing it. Though, I will need a little more time before releasing it. Juts be a little more patient. In the meanwhile, you could try using ffdshow's levels filter to achieve it.

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...

This is what I mean:

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...

Have you tried checking the box "Process whole image" in ffdshow levels settings?

[flanger216]

Originally Posted by leeperry

well, sure, mastering studios do it on a weekly basis because they are retarded...you should call some of them to let them know, I'm sure they'll thank you for it!

and if you can't hear a difference between Reclock b58(running the 1.5MB libsamplerate, which is also sold as a commercial product, and carries very impressive specs) and Reclock b62(running libresample, which is a 100kb crappy algorithm from Audacity...that screws up the phase linearity and the THD/THD+N rates to stellar extends), well...go run to your nearest otologist I'd say

no hard feelings, but dumbing things down ain't cool...and luckily mVR hasn't been engineered by ppl like you. Time to fill my ignore list even further

Yowza. I realize he's apparently 'ignored' me, so, like my last post, I offer this to whom he gives 'advice.'

Let's go ahead and invert his egregious language and put it this way: why doesn't he call up USC's professional intermediary lab and let them know that not color calibrating every week is "retarded?" I'm sure they'll be very impressed with his Wikipedia readings.

If I were actually having hearing problems, I'm sure I'd rather go to an audiologist. Unless he's implying I have an ear-infection...? I'm also disinclined to discuss psychoacoustical theory with someone who 'tests' stereo imaging with a pair of headphones. Or with someone who spells FUBAR as "foobar'ed."

Absolutism is not the same thing as being smart, and, if anything, I'm attempting to shed a more complex light on his grandstanding proclamations. We can pursue the ideal of superb/near-perfect quality (and of course I am too; my last post was making fun of myself as much as anyone else), and we can do it without resorting to hyperbole and egomaniacal childishness.

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by yesgrey3

Have you tried checking the box "Process whole image" in ffdshow levels settings?

Didn't work. It works with any other renderer but with madVR it doesn't.

You have said that you have your setup calibrated to 10-245. But are you using madVR? If so, how have you done it?

By the way, I mainly watch mkv videos (movies and tv shows encoded with AVC). I know that wtw info is present in DVDs and Blu-Rays, but I'm not sure if it's present in mkvs too. Is it possible that in the enconding process all the values fall in the 16-235 range (as it should be in the first time), or wtw info is preserved too?

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

You have said that you have your setup calibrated to 10-245. But are you using madVR? If so, how have you done it?

Yes. Considering that I am cr3dlut's author, I have just added that option to the code.

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

Is it possible that in the enconding process all the values fall in the 16-235 range (as it should be in the first time), or wtw info is preserved too?

Only if it's an incorrectly done encode. With a correct encode, it should has the exact same levels of the original.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

I know that wtw info is present in DVDs and Blu-Rays

well, it's a rather complicated matter...just like bluray's are supposed to be using the REC.709 gamut, but are in most cases color managed on SMPTE-C CRT screens

some ppl think that whatever BTB/WTW shouldn't matter, as some encoders seem to "pad" data in there...OTOH, at Kazuya's request, Seb.26 added a dynamic levels conversion in ffdshow:



it will dynamically dig for valuable data and when properly set, you can get automatic 13-238 conversion...you get the idea! but be careful w/ padded data! I personally don't like it but I know Kazuya couldn't live w/o this thing, just like I cannot watch movies w/o LSF+GrainFactory3 running in realtime at 48fps

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by leeperry

well, it's a rather complicated matter...just like bluray's are supposed to be using the REC.709 gamut, but are in most cases color managed on SMPTE-C CRT screens

some ppl think that whatever BTB/WTW shouldn't matter, as some encoders seem to "pad" data in there...OTOH, at Kazuya's request, Seb.26 added a dynamic levels conversion in ffdshow:



it will dynamically dig for valuable data and when properly set, you can get automatic 13-238 conversion...you get the idea! but be careful w/ padded data! I personally don't like it but I know Kazuya couldn't live w/o this thing, just like I cannot watch movies w/o LSF+GrainFactory3 running in realtime at 48fps

The problem with ffdshow's level filter is that, if I set madVR to output TV Levels, then when I watch a movie with top and bottom black bars, they're showed gray instead of black, and it's very annoying.

And if madVR outputs PC Levels, then it automatically clips 0-16 and 235-254 data, so I guess the Seb's BTB/WTW level filter can do nothing because the possible BTB/WTW is already clipped. Am I wrong?

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by yesgrey3

Yes. Considering that I am cr3dlut's author, I have just added that option to the code.

Lol. Well, of course that's one of the benefits of being the author. Ok, we'll wait for your next version of c3dlut to achieve it then. Do you expect to release it soon?

Originally Posted by yesgrey3

Only if it's an incorrectly done encode. With a correct encode, it should has the exact same levels of the original.

That's what I thought. But I'm making some tests with different movies and tv shows, and I haven't found any scene where wtw is present (or at least I haven't been capable of finding it). Can you tell me some movie's scenes where wtw is present so I can download them and check it?

Thanks for your help, guys!

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

Am I wrong?

I honestly don't know...your clipping story doesn't make sense to me...get your display properly calibrated in 0-255, output full range RGB from your computer, disable mVR's level conversion, use Seb's levels thingie and you're good to go...any actual BTB/WTW will be visible if that's obsessing you so much, I know Kazuya couldn't sleep at night knowing he's missing a few levels

[jmartinr]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

The problem with ffdshow's level filter is that, if I set madVR to output TV Levels, then when I watch a movie with top and bottom black bars, they're showed gray instead of black, and it's very annoying.

And if madVR outputs PC Levels, then it automatically clips 0-16 and 235-254 data, so I guess the Seb's BTB/WTW level filter can do nothing because the possible BTB/WTW is already clipped. Am I wrong?

As mentioned use "process whole image" and set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range". IIRC this value is used to calculate the black value for the black bars.

[cyberlolo]

Originally Posted by jmartinr

set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range".

Where is that setting in ffdshow?

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

Do you expect to release it soon?

I don't know.

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

Can you tell me some movie's scenes where wtw is present so I can download them and check it?

I saw a movie where the wtw were very noticeable, but I don't know if you would be able to find it...
It's a french movie, "8 femmes". There is a scene with a window that has light entering through it where the whites are crushed when using 16-235.

Originally Posted by jmartinr

set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range".

He wants to use madVR, so, he cannot convert to RGB using ffdshow. madVR only supports YV12 at its input.

[TripleH]

Hi friends,

I'm running an HTPC with a Core 2 Quad Q9400 CPU and a Radeon HD 4670 512MB video card, which works fine with madVR.

Now I want to upgrade my video card to one from the Radeon 5XXX series.

I think I'm going to get the Radeon HD 5570 - will it be able to handle madVR like my current HD 4670 card ?

According to the specs, the differences are the following:

Texture units: 32 on the 4670 Vs. 20 on the 5570
Core Clock: 750Mhz Vs. 650Mhz
Memory Clock: 1000Mhz Vs. 900Mhz

On the other hand, the 5570 has 627M transistors, while the 4670 has 514M.

So what do you think ?

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by TripleH

So what do you think ?

You should compare the stream processors number and memory bandwidth, that's what madVR needs...

[namaiki]

From what I have read in TripleH's, it does not seem that 4670-> 5570 is an upgrade at all.

edit: 5570 = 400 stream processing units @ essentially 650 -> 260,000 'units'
4670 = 320 stream processing units @ 750 -> 240,000 'units'

edit: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/at...d-5570-review/ "essentially a parallel move"

[jmartinr]

Originally Posted by yesgrey3

I don't know.
He wants to use madVR, so, he cannot convert to RGB using ffdshow. madVR only supports YV12 at its input.

I know, but it's still that value that's used for calculating the blackness level of the black bars in YV12.