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Old 17th October 2009, 14:28   #10141  |  Link
Mercury_22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrNein View Post
That's weird because in their diagrams for 5.1 are shown Left Surround and Right Surround being at the sides as expected but for 7.1, Left Surround Side and Right Surround Side appear augmented by Left Surround Rear and Right Surround Rear. If the text above is correct then for 7.1 the side mapping would be switched to rear rather than simply adding the rear and the additional sound would then be side.

I have always had the understanding that the rear surround AKA back speakers were the additions in a 7.1 configuration (from either Dolby or DTS).
Why wouldn't be correct ?

If that it's not enough you can check other DTS resources like DTS-HD Brochure
Quote:
...The two most popular speaker placement in consumer’s homes are 5.1 plus two additional speakers at the left and right side positions (90 degrees from the listener) or the left and right rear surround
positions (120 degrees). ....
or DTS-HD White Paper
Quote:
...With 7.1 channels of sound, DTS-HD Master Audio immerses the listener in sound and creates a “you are there”
listening experience. Using additional left and right side surround channels, it goes far beyond traditional surround
sound to create an amazingly realistic and dynamic sound environment that radiates near perfect sound coverage
throughout the listening room....
that you can find on the same DTS page with my previous text

So yes the additional surround channels for the 7.1 are on the side and the 5.1 surround channels are on rear

P.S. This is my LAST comment on this matter !

Test 5.1 AC3 (Dolby Digital)
Test 5.1 Dolby TrueHD
Test 7.1 E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus)
Test 7.1 Dolby TrueHD
Test 7.1 DTS-HD HR
Test 7.1 LPCM
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Last edited by Mercury_22; 17th October 2009 at 14:49.
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Old 17th October 2009, 15:00   #10142  |  Link
mark0077
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Yep those 5.1 tests arn't played correctly on Xonar HDAV Deluxe, as I already said, mpc and ffdshow explicitly output to back, not sides...... I challenge anyone to find a soundcard that will make mpc-hc or ffdshow explicitly output to sides (or anything other than back even), which would show at least that mpc doesnt just blindly output to back all the time, that it smartly detects where to send surround output based on what the sound cards drivers want.

I havn't seen anyone yet that can show mpc-hc or ffdshow visually outputting to the sides. They always choose back by default as far as I can see, this is where the problem lies. Again this is fine if your soundcard remaps the back to the sides, but unfortunately not all soundcards will do this, some will "smartly" upmix these back channels to sides if sides is where surround exists, and this upmixing isn't as nice as pure channel remaps in this weird situation.

So 5.1 tests you give above fail in cards with this upmixing ability, ie those that don't just do a channel remap like your soundcard. These tests will show this upmixing function of these soundcards (what sounds like left bleeding into right channel and vice versa), rather than whats intended, pure channels being sent to the right place in the first place.

EDIT: Looking at the link you provided (given below) regarding asking the os / driver is a mode supported, maybe mpc-hc is asking the driver first is 5.1 supported using "Back", and of course in a 7.1 soundcard, that mode is always going to be supported, regardless of whether the user or drivers intend the sides or back to be used in a 5.1 config. Read Mikes last entry in the following page. My guess is your soundcard might be saying this mode isn't supported and mpc-hc is therefore choosing side internally but not on its gui, OR your soundcard is saying this mode is supported and mapping channels to side itself.
http://www.freelists.org/post/wdmaud...ode-question,7

Looking at the following pin config document, scrolling down to the 5.1 section, you can see the two different configurations that are possible, obviously one using side (Sequence: (0,1,4)), one using back output (Sequence: (0,1,2)). Still unsure how mpc decides to choose back versus sides. Any devs wanna enlighten us
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device...PinConfig.mspx

I am obviously just guessing, as I havn't heard from any of the mpc developers on this.

Last edited by mark0077; 17th October 2009 at 16:10.
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Old 17th October 2009, 15:12   #10143  |  Link
amango
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I have troubles with changing subtitles on some MKV-files within MPC Cinema.

If you have a MKV with multiple subtitle tracks that also have different formats (like track 1: SRT, track 2: IDX) the subtitles of the second track are not displayed anymore. That don't happen if I use the older DirectVobSub-Filter. Mediaportal also uses the MPC-HC subtitle engine, so the same bug happens within Mediaportal. I can reproduce that behaviour in both programs - changing to DirectVobSub helps but I loose DXVA with it.
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Old 17th October 2009, 17:43   #10144  |  Link
Andy o
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury_22 View Post
Why wouldn't be correct ?

If that it's not enough you can check other DTS resources like DTS-HD Brochure or DTS-HD White Paper
that you can find on the same DTS page with my previous text

So yes the additional surround channels for the 7.1 are on the side and the 5.1 surround channels are on rear

P.S. This is my LAST comment on this matter !

Test 5.1 AC3 (Dolby Digital)
Test 5.1 Dolby TrueHD
Test 7.1 E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus)
Test 7.1 Dolby TrueHD
Test 7.1 DTS-HD HR
Test 7.1 LPCM
The problem is that it seems only DTS is saying this, and it's inconsistent sometimes. Everyone else that I've seen including every AVR manufacturer, Dolby and THX, treats the back surrounds in 7.1 as the extra channels. Not to mention that DTS-ES's extra channel is also the rear one, and it would be stupid for them to map that channel to the sides instead of the rears on a 7.1 system.
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Old 17th October 2009, 17:57   #10145  |  Link
Andy o
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
Yep those 5.1 tests arn't played correctly on Xonar HDAV Deluxe, as I already said, mpc and ffdshow explicitly output to back, not sides......
I'm not sure if you read my previous message, but this doesn't only happen with MPC-HC and ffdshow. PowerDVD and TMT also do, as all the other players I've tried including foobar2000.

It's the fault of Windows and/or the drivers. As I understand, the program when it sends a 5.1 stream out to the Windows mixer, it doesn't specify back or side, it just specifies "surround" channel. Then Windows or the driver takes care of outputting it from the back channels, if you have Windows set to 7.1. If you have Windows set to 5.1, they will come out from the sides if you have 7.1 speakers.

If you set the program to output a 5.1 source in a 7.1 stream with 2 back surround channels silent, like PowerDVD 8 does when you set it to "8 speakers" or like TMT did for me only with TrueHD sources, then you won't have that problem. I can make foobar2000 do that, but it's a very inelegant and annoying solution.
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Old 17th October 2009, 18:20   #10146  |  Link
mark0077
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Cheers Andy. So if we are sure there is a problem outside of these apps, how can we narrow it down to either being drivers or windows. I want to get this into a bug report of some form.

But when you say you don't think that the apps we talk about don't specify back or side, I don't believe this is true, as both mpc-hc and ffdshow explicitly say back or side in their mixers. Even if the ffdshow mixer isn't used at all, ie completely unchecked, it still says back or side output in its "Info & CPU" section, which to me indicates its not outtputting to "surround" at all, therefore not dependent on good driver info..... There is no way for me anyways, with any configuration of xonar control panel / windows speakers settings, to have these apps give me output correctly to the sides.

The only way I get proper surround channels going to my sides is explicitly telling mpc or ffdshow, to output to the side channels through their mixers. Otherwise I get this channel upmixing effect.

Obviously more recent pc games are not relying upon windows / drivers to choose side versus back. GTA 4 gives the option to output surround to sides or back. Sides being the default for me anyways.

If I set everything to 7.1, windows cp, xonar control panel, ffdshow output etc, then during 5.1 (because I only have 5.1 speakers) I don't hear any surround output at all. This is because, again ffdshow and mpc send surround to back, but in this case the xonar drivers think I have back so they just send it there. In all 5.1 mode, when sent back channel data, the xonar drivers try to upmix this to the sides. All of this is expected.

EDIT: If I set xonar to assume input of 8 channels, and use output of 5.1 speakers, it automatically does the mapping from back to sides for me. But this shouldn't be necessary. Setting it to assume input of 5.1 channels, and output of 5.1 channels should work correctly but of course it won't in the current versions, because mpc and ffdshow seem to explicitly send surround to backs.

Last edited by mark0077; 17th October 2009 at 18:39.
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Old 17th October 2009, 18:36   #10147  |  Link
Andy o
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Well the only thing that occurs to me to test is to check different drivers and devices. Unfortunately it's been a while for me since I've used anything other than the ATI HDMI device in my HTPC. Your experience seems to be similar to mine though. If someone else is using another device that behaves differently, then it might be drivers. The problem is that this is not the only flavor of this side/back surround issue. Some drivers like Nvidia confuse the matters further by swapping them.

I'm thinking of just going back to regular 5.1. This speaker number race is getting out of hand anyway. DPLIIz?

By the way, I fix my issues with ReClock or WASAPI exclusive. Those can set your channels in Windows automatically according to the source. Thing is I don't think they work with the Xonar very well, cause the Xonar doesn't let them bypass its control panel settings.

What happens when you set Windows to 5.1 output, and the Xonar CP to 5.1 input and 7.1 output? Where do you hear the surrounds?

Last edited by Andy o; 17th October 2009 at 18:39.
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Old 18th October 2009, 14:50   #10148  |  Link
Fragbert
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xvidvideo.ru appears down and out indefinitely! Is there another website that hosts the latest nightly builds of mpc-hc x86 and x64?
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Old 18th October 2009, 18:17   #10149  |  Link
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New buid

1301

32-bit
64-bit
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Old 18th October 2009, 19:00   #10150  |  Link
alexins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragbert View Post
xvidvideo.ru appears down and out indefinitely! Is there another website that hosts the latest nightly builds of mpc-hc x86 and x64?
My site is often not available because of poor quality work of my ISP

Now I renew software on the server. The site will be accessible through the pair of days.
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Old 18th October 2009, 19:14   #10151  |  Link
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It's not often said: thank you Alexins for providing nightly build of MPC-HC in particular.
And thank you for your work around MPC-HC in general.
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Old 18th October 2009, 21:17   #10152  |  Link
Casshern
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Let me also thank you for your relentless work and great support of mpc hc, ffdshow and other video stuff.

THANX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexins View Post
My site is often not available because of poor quality work of my ISP

Now I renew software on the server. The site will be accessible through the pair of days.
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Old 18th October 2009, 23:51   #10153  |  Link
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Both files mirrored on x264.nl, keep up the great work!
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Old 19th October 2009, 09:59   #10154  |  Link
uncola
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woo, thanks for the mirror since xvidvideo.ru is down.
Hey have you guys ever thought of rebooting the thread? 500 pages is a lot
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Old 19th October 2009, 10:57   #10155  |  Link
hoborg
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Question about WMV9 pro and MPC-HC:

I have WMV video sample with 6ch. WMA3 audio.
MPC-HC will play sample and output 5.1 correctly, but if i open same file in graphstudio, i got only stereo output.

So my question is - what special MPC-HC do to get 5.1 from WMV?
Same graphs are created (checked by graphstudio).
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Old 19th October 2009, 14:26   #10156  |  Link
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Is there a way to force DXVA in MPC-HC?

I'm asking because deinterlacing looks awful when I'm not using DXVA. And when I use PowerDVD9, DXVA is on and deinterlacing looks better.

My setup: ATI HD 4350, Windows7, EVR-CP in MPC-HC

Thanks
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Old 19th October 2009, 16:28   #10157  |  Link
Jong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polcius View Post
Is there a way to force DXVA in MPC-HC?

I'm asking because deinterlacing looks awful when I'm not using DXVA. And when I use PowerDVD9, DXVA is on and deinterlacing looks better.

My setup: ATI HD 4350, Windows7, EVR-CP in MPC-HC

Thanks
What material are you trying to view? If DVD/MPEG2, the MPC MPEG2 decoder cannot use DXVA so try uisng the Cyberlink decoder instead (although you may have problems with DVD menus?).
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Old 19th October 2009, 17:36   #10158  |  Link
Polcius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong View Post
What material are you trying to view? If DVD/MPEG2, the MPC MPEG2 decoder cannot use DXVA so try uisng the Cyberlink decoder instead (although you may have problems with DVD menus?).
Yes, DVDs.

If I use the Cyberlink decoder, I can't see DVD subtitles.

BTW, Is there a way to doo a good deinterlacing without DXVA? Because I don't care much about DXVA, my main concern is to apply a good deinterlacing.

Thanks
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Old 19th October 2009, 18:05   #10159  |  Link
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Yes, output in the nv12 colorspace to your graphics card, seems to be the only way to get good de-interlacing in my card anyways.

You can use ffdshow to do this, just select only nv12 in its output options, and in mpc-hc mpeg2 decoder options, set "Set interlaced flag in output media type". Just be careful because most DVD's won't require de-interlacing, but are badly flagged so your graphics card may show tiny anomilies when trying to de-interlace material that doesn't need to be de-interlaced at all. Tis a bit of a mess to be honest, very much a manual step before watching a DVD, to decide if it will need de-interlacing or not.
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Old 19th October 2009, 18:17   #10160  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
Well the only thing that occurs to me to test is to check different drivers and devices. Unfortunately it's been a while for me since I've used anything other than the ATI HDMI device in my HTPC. Your experience seems to be similar to mine though. If someone else is using another device that behaves differently, then it might be drivers. The problem is that this is not the only flavor of this side/back surround issue. Some drivers like Nvidia confuse the matters further by swapping them.

I'm thinking of just going back to regular 5.1. This speaker number race is getting out of hand anyway. DPLIIz?

By the way, I fix my issues with ReClock or WASAPI exclusive. Those can set your channels in Windows automatically according to the source. Thing is I don't think they work with the Xonar very well, cause the Xonar doesn't let them bypass its control panel settings.

What happens when you set Windows to 5.1 output, and the Xonar CP to 5.1 input and 7.1 output? Where do you hear the surrounds?
Setting windows / xonar control panel to 5.1 input, and xonar control panel to 7.1 output of course shows the same effects. The xonar is getting 5.1 channels in, with the two surround channels being sent to the back by mpc-hc. Because there are no side channels coming as input, the xonar again tries to use all available channels, so when it gets for example right back channel data from mpc-hc, I hear it approx 90% volume from my side right, and about 10% from side left. Same for left back channel input data of course.

All perfectly expected behaviour given my drivers are being sent back channel data.

When using WASAPI of course none of this happens, it seems to do a great job of mapping "surround" to the correct place, just when using directsound, mpc-hc is sending "surround" to my back channels and this is a problem. Sorry to harp on, just I know its going to effect others, with the majority "sadly?" not noticing it as its a subtle effect, or if their soundcard does very simple upmixing from back to sides, then they won't notice at all.

Unfortunately the xonar does a little more advanced upmixing to available channels, hence the channel bleeding effect. Still hoping to get input from developers on this.

Last edited by mark0077; 19th October 2009 at 18:52.
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