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Old 21st September 2009, 10:47   #401  |  Link
Midzuki
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DragonQ wrote:

Quote:
My parents' really old player from ~1998 has 6 channel analogue output and it definitely doesn't play DVD-Audio.
My 6-year-old LG has 6 analogue audio outputs (besides 2 analog outputs for plain/downmixed stereo, plus 2 SPDIF outputs), and definitely is not a DVD-Audio player either.

Music Fan asked:

Quote:
And let's be logical : why would the dvd-audio have been invented if dvd-video could do the job ? Only to add the MLP compression ?
Yes.
And more importantly, the CPPM thing and the beloved watermarks as well.
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Old 21st September 2009, 11:20   #402  |  Link
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Does it mean that you believe dvd-video can play PCM 5.1 if it's not protected by CPPM and Watermark ?
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Old 21st September 2009, 11:37   #403  |  Link
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No, I mean you keep looking for "logic" where it does not exist.
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Old 21st September 2009, 13:30   #404  |  Link
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I only try to explain the reasons why PCM 5.1 is not dvd-video compliant.
There are only two possibilities : it works or it does'nt.
I never found a topic where someone explained that he achieved that. It would be a well kept secret if it works, isn't it ?

Last edited by Music Fan; 21st September 2009 at 13:32.
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Old 21st September 2009, 14:39   #405  |  Link
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You have to examine the DVD-Video spec carefully
Code:
48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 16 bit or 24 bit L-PCM, 2 to 6 channels, up to 6144 kbit
The problem is the bitrate, at 96K, 6 channel, 24-bit the bitrate is 13824Kbps, more than twice the upper limit for DVD-Video.
As for 6 channel LPCM, my old Sony supports it, and has 6 analog outputs. But newer players dropped the extra analog outputs. I used it to verify LPCM muxing in MuxMan.

Also, the spec allows up to 8 channels, and also supports 20-bit. While I was not able to confirm 7 or 8 channel (due to the lack of those outputs) all other allowable combinations were tested and work. Here is a table of allowable combinations

Last edited by mpucoder; 21st September 2009 at 15:30.
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Old 21st September 2009, 16:04   #406  |  Link
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Thanks, very interesting, but how many dvd-video player can read that ?
If they don't have 6 analog outputs, what happens ?
I'm astonished that we can put 8 channels because the receivers got only 6 channels when dvd was created.
And I've never seen dvd players with 8 analog output. Except some Blu-ray players (which also read dvd) like the Oppo BDP-83, but it arrived a long time after the dvd.

Last edited by Music Fan; 21st September 2009 at 16:16.
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Old 21st September 2009, 16:33   #407  |  Link
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So, it was you ... the guy who kept well the secret !
I'm happy to be wrong, it's rare.
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Old 21st September 2009, 16:41   #408  |  Link
mpucoder
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I've never seen a player with more than 6 analog outputs either. All audio can be transmitted to a receiver via Toslink (fiber optic) or SP/DIF provided it is either 48K sample rate or the disk is not CSS protected. DVD-Video also allows 7.1 mpeg, 6.1 DTS, and 7.1 SDDS, so 8 channels was definitely in the original design, although most receivers were limited to 5.1
If there are only 2 analog outputs they contain a downmix of the audio, this is true regardless of the encoding method.
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Old 21st September 2009, 16:48   #409  |  Link
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Thanks, amazing news !
It's the first time that I see SDDS and dvd in the same sentence ! Does it mean that all dvd-video players can manage SDDS, even if they do a downmix ?
Quote:
All audio can be transmitted to a receiver via Toslink (fiber optic) or SP/DIF provided it is either 48K sample rate or the disk is not CSS protected.
Even in 5.1 (if it's in 16/48) ?
I believe that we can send 24/96 PCM on SPDIF when it's in stereo. In some players, we can chose in the setup to let it in 96k or downsample it to 48k for the SPDIF output.

Last edited by Music Fan; 21st September 2009 at 16:51.
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Old 21st September 2009, 17:18   #410  |  Link
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OK, here is where things can seem complicated. For LPCM audio the digital outputs contain the PCM audio unmodified, so if the player is in spec it should simply pass the data, be it 16, 20, or 24 bit, 48K or 96K.
For encoding methods where there is an onboard decoder (NTSC requires Dolby Digital, PAL requires Dolby Digital and MPEG, 2 channel minimum) players usually offer a choice of passing the data or passing decoded data as 48K PCM, possibly truncated to 20 or 16 bits, and usually only 2 channels (it all depends on the decoder).
For all other encoding methods (DTS and SDDS) the data is sent out unmodified.
Onboard DTS is rare, and SDDS non-existent. I don't know of any commercial DVD-Video disk that contains an SDDS track.
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Old 21st September 2009, 17:59   #411  |  Link
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Thanks !
If we can send LPCM 5.1 in 16/48 (or even more) on SPDIF, it means that some receivers could recognize, decode and amplify it ?
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Old 24th September 2009, 05:34   #412  |  Link
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OK, just for learning purposes, I've just created a 5.1 LPCM audio-only VIDEO_TS folder on a CD-RW with DVD-lab PRO, and tested it on my old LG DVD-player.
Sadly its firmware was designed to NOT SEE above 2 channels of uncompressed audio. Also, the 5.1 analog outputs work only for AC3 streams.

I'm afraid there are zero DVD-players that actually have the right to carry the «DVD-VIDEO logo».
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Old 24th September 2009, 08:49   #413  |  Link
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That's why I was afraid that LPCM 5.1 was not dvd-video compliant. And also because we don't see anything in the setup and the manual of dvd-video players about that.
We can say that this format is not welcome by players.
But I have done a dvd-video with 5.1 48/16 LPCM and ... it works !
On my Pioneer dv-585, I have sound on all channels with the analog multichannel output (it has no Hdmi output).
On my Panasonic DMP-BD35 (which has no analog multichannel output), there is sound on the stereo cinch output, but I don't know if it's a downmix or only the front channels.
Same remark for SPDIF output on both players that send only stereo.
I have to continue my tests to know exactly if I lose some channels on stero output (cinch and SPDIF) or not. I will record my voice and will say different things in all channels to avoid doubt.
And no one of these players show the number of channels ; when I click on "display" or "audio", I see "PCM 48/16" but nor 2.0 neither 5.1, though I see it with ac3, Dts and Dvd-audio (LPCM and PPCM).
As my receiver doesn't have Hdmi input, I don't know what happens on Hdmi output (with my BD-35).

Last edited by Music Fan; 24th September 2009 at 08:53.
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Old 24th September 2009, 14:02   #414  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
That's why I was afraid that LPCM 5.1 was not dvd-video compliant.
But multichannel LPCM does comply with the DVD-Video specs.
What determines the compliance is the DVD-Forum "booklet",
not the "statistic normality" of the standalone DVD-players available.

Last edited by Midzuki; 24th September 2009 at 14:08.
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Old 24th September 2009, 14:22   #415  |  Link
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I know, I wrote "was".
And I agree, but the situation would be so simpler if all players could read all formats included in the norm with which they are compatible.
Actually, I'm more disappointed by the lack of communication of the manufacturers than by some limitations.
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Old 25th September 2009, 22:01   #416  |  Link
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So maybe I missed something here, but how in the heck can I get PPCMRipper.
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Old 26th September 2009, 07:34   #417  |  Link
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There is better than PPCMRipper now.
If you want to extract the tracks, you can use DVDAExplorer ;
http://rapidshare.com/files/26919188...2008.07.21.zip

If you want to make an exact copy, you can use DVDFab in clone mode ;
http://www.dvdfab.com/free.htm

And you can read the page 21 for some explanations about exact copies.

Last edited by Music Fan; 26th September 2009 at 07:38.
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Old 27th September 2009, 10:19   #418  |  Link
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Hi Music Fan

I have tried your exact copies, method.

I cant get it to work. How are you so sure that dvdFab keeps the CPPM encryption.
I made a copy of my DVD-Audio disc with clone mode, I checked the ISO and the disc with DVDdecrypter and it tells me that there is encrytion on the disc, but no encrytioen on the ISO.

Just to be sure, I burned the ISO, and played it on my DVD-Audio player, and as expected, it stopped playing after 30 sec. because of the watermarking.
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Old 27th September 2009, 10:57   #419  |  Link
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Have you ticked "Copy original IFO files" ?
And the MKB file is still there ? If yes, I don't understand what does DvdFab in clone mode.
I guess that if you copy in full disc (which removes CPPM for sure), you have the same problem ?
Quote:
I checked the ISO and the disc with DVDdecrypter
Are you sure that Dvddecrypter can read the AUDIO_TS part and that this message doesn't concern the VIDEO_TS part ?
Have you kept the VIDEO_TS part ?
Did you burn with IMGBurn ?

Last edited by Music Fan; 27th September 2009 at 11:06.
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Old 27th September 2009, 15:09   #420  |  Link
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As evoked on this topic, there are maybe 3 kind of players ;
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/751985
Quote:
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]
Also in this topic, an interesting trick that could work with some players ;
Quote:
I copied and pasted a DVDAUDIO.MKB from a working copy of a different disc to the "Nightfly" AUDIO_TS folder, and created a new image. The modified "Nightfly" disc now passes watermark detection in my Samsung.
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