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Old 27th March 2009, 14:15   #141  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Well, your use of "correct" is debatable. IMHO BDSup2Sub handles colors correctly since 2.5. I find it hard to believe that Sony, core member of the BD Association, screwed this in the PS3, which probably still is one of the most popular BD players.
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Old 27th March 2009, 14:28   #142  |  Link
turbojet
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Correct meaning the swap setting came very close to replicating the original sup I uploaded which is tough to debate. I have a feeling you'll experience the same thing in PS3 with that sup. I actually prefer the yellow vobsubs over the turquoise but the 2.5 sups were very difficult to read.

I don't know about Iron Man sup, I don't have that one and I believe your claims about it.

Probably just a case where some need the swap while others don't, luckily we have control of that now.
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Old 27th March 2009, 17:16   #143  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Correct meaning the swap setting came very close to replicating the original sup I uploaded which is tough to debate.
As long as you didn't actually see the captions of the original BD on a certified standalone, I'd argue that it's impossible for you to judge if the colors are correct or not. So it's not tough, but pointless to debate.

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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
I have a feeling you'll experience the same thing in PS3 with that sup. I actually prefer the yellow vobsubs over the turquoise but the 2.5 sups were very difficult to read.
I'm pretty sure indeed that the SUPs of the original BD displayed on a PS3 would look pretty close to what BDSup2Sub 2.5/2.6 shows (ignoring lack of calibration and gamma correction). The fact that the BD-SUPs created by 2.5 had an inconsistent palette is a completely different matter.

Which however raises the questions if you're actually using the SUPs created by BDSup2Sub to mux a transport stream. If so: does this work reliably?

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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
I don't know about Iron Man sup, I don't have that one and I believe your claims about it.
It's almost 100% certain that any BD on any PS3 shows exactly the same behavior as they share the same software.

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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Probably just a case where some need the swap while others don't, luckily we have control of that now.
I don't think so. I guess that other people stumbled over the same assumption as I did: if the color space is commonly called "YCbCr", it seems likely that the color components are also stored in that order. As SupRip shows the "Iron Man" caption in wrong colors, it's pretty clear to me that it uses the wrong Cr/Cb order just like BDSup2Sub did until (including) 2.4.
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Old 27th March 2009, 17:43   #144  |  Link
turbojet
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You could if you wanted to test out that sup stream on a PS3 and compare color palettes of the original to swap vs unswapped setting in BDSup2Sub. As I understand it the color palette is contained inside the sup and I don't see why a PS3 would interpret it differently then these other tools/players do.

I've only watched a few 720p movies with sup's converted with BDSup2Sub and they seem to be reliable since I think it was 2.1 when they started showing, except for this one colored forced sup stream. I'll let you know if I do find some thing else though.
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Old 27th March 2009, 20:20   #145  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
[...] I don't see why a PS3 would interpret it differently then these other tools/players do.
You aren't serious, are you?

Besides, at least one of the tools you named, Vobsub Resync, doesn't even support BD-SUPs. I must admit that I'm surprised to hear that MPC-HC does. At least with the M2TS streams I tried, it certainly didn't. So, this obviously leaves us in a PowerDVD vs. PS3 situation (if at all), where I would bet on the hardware player produced by the BDA foundation member for sure.

Anyway: anybody with a standalone is invited to report if colored captions demuxed from a BD/HD-DVD appear correct (neglecting calibration/gamma correction) in BDSup2Sub compared to what the standalone displays with the original BD/HD-DVD. If not, post the SUP and some details (which captions should look how, which demuxer used, did the "swap cr/cb" option fix it etc).
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Old 28th March 2009, 15:20   #146  |  Link
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Thanks for 2.6! The fade-in/out HD-DVD SUP files seem to be pretty much fixed now.

I do get a few "problems decoding RLE" errors when exporting to BD SUP, though.. What causes that?

Pati
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Old 28th March 2009, 15:41   #147  |  Link
rizu
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Hi,

First I'd like to thank you for making this tool

I have one request/idea.. would it be possible to add as an option to relocate subs automatically inside the picture, simply something like keep subs inside set bounds?

I'm planning to get myself 2.35:1 screen and having subs outside the screen isn't really an option I though about making such tool myself but then I saw your tool and though it could be easy to add such feature to already existing software, I'm sure there would be loads of people who'd have use for such feature anyway. I know I can do this with srt subs but I really do prefer bitmap subs as there are several cons on srt.

I've put a quick sketch as an attachment to show what I'm after. Basically you'd enter Min and Max Y and treshold, these values would set the final bounds, no subs would be left outside these values. Then all subs would be scanned and determined the ones that need repositioning. Software would mark subs that has to be lowered and subs to be risen and also save highest and lowest Y found on sub frames.

Treshold would describe how much subtitle can get below min Y or above max Y to be marked for repositioning while min and max Y would tell where the new lowest or highest subtitle would be repositioned.

Then after all subs were scanned repositioning would take place by following logic: rise ALL subs that were below (Max Y-Treshold) by (biggest Y found on subframes-Max Y entered). Same logic on too high positioned subtitles. So it would process only the frames that need repositioning. Treshold would keep frames away from bouncing all over the screen too. If both Min Y and Max Y would be true over the same frame, then tell user about it and leave frame as it is (let user deal with that particular frame by himself manually).
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Old 29th March 2009, 07:27   #148  |  Link
turbojet
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Found an oddity with the swap cr/cb.
With the same colored sups I've been dealing with if I disable swap the text in the gui appears yellow but it outputs blue subtitles.
If I enable swap the gui shows blue but it outputs yellow subtitles.

Also the color of the sup in MPC-HC, PowerDVD, SupRip, SupRead matches the color of what is shown on a Panasonic BD30.
I'll try testing on a PS3 soon.
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Old 29th March 2009, 11:45   #149  |  Link
jonathonsunshine
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automatic language detection from the command prompt ?

As of version 2.6 is it able to automatically detect the language when you are running it from a command prompt ? I couldn't see anything in the help, no switchs and it defaulting everything to german unless you specify something else (from the command prompt).
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Old 29th March 2009, 16:59   #150  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pati View Post
I do get a few "problems decoding RLE" errors when exporting to BD SUP, though.. What causes that?
In this particular SUP, it seems that the last line in the 2nd buffer (either even or odd lines) is a bit too long. Or let's say: there's more information in the RLE buffer than needed to decode the picture. As long a no image is cut or garbled, I decided to live with it. If you find a pic that is, please report though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizu View Post
First I'd like to thank you for making this tool
You're welcome, although by experience, there's usually a "but".

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizu View Post
I have one request/idea.. would it be possible to add as an option to relocate subs automatically inside the picture, simply something like keep subs inside set bounds?
Surprise
Indeed I played with the idea myself, but then decided that probably nobody would ever need this as I couldn't imagine a (commonly needed) use case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizu View Post
I'm planning to get myself 2.35:1 screen and having subs outside the screen isn't really an option
Ok, this sounds like a use case. Although I'm not 100% sure if I'd implement it this way if I would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizu View Post
I though about making such tool myself but then I saw your tool and though it could be easy to add such feature to already existing software, I'm sure there would be loads of people who'd have use for such feature anyway. I know I can do this with srt subs but I really do prefer bitmap subs as there are several cons on srt.
There's no such tool for SUB/IDX? Or which type of captions do you export?
BTW: Changing Y position alone would be no complete solution. I stumbled over subtitles which nearly fill the whole screen vertically, since there's an upper line above the picture and a lower line below the picture. In this case, the described algorithm would fail, since the subpicture would need to be scaled down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Found an oddity with the swap cr/cb.
With the same colored sups I've been dealing with if I disable swap the text in the gui appears yellow but it outputs blue subtitles.
If I enable swap the gui shows blue but it outputs yellow subtitles.
Are you sure that this isn't a misconception on your side? If you swap Cr/Cb, save as a SUP and load it again (with the swap setting still on), the colors will change (again) of course. That's the idea of the swap function. To see the correct colors after saving a file with swapped colors, you need to uncheck the swap option of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Also the color of the sup in MPC-HC, PowerDVD, SupRip, SupRead matches the color of what is shown on a Panasonic BD30.
SupRip shows the wrong colors compared to a PS3 (if it doesn't crash). SUPread shows only a few captions of your example, but what it shows looks exactly like in BDSup2Sub:



So if you say that "SupRead matches the color of what is shown on a Panasonic BD30", this would also mean that BDSup2Sub shows the same colors. Then again, since SupRip shows different colors than SUPread, the whole statement is questionable to say the least.

Also, I'm still not convinced that MPC-HC can display SUPs at all. With all M2TS I tried up to now, MPC-HC didn't display any embedded SUPs at all (option greyed out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathonsunshine View Post
As of version 2.6 is it able to automatically detect the language when you are running it from a command prompt ? I couldn't see anything in the help, no switchs and it defaulting everything to german unless you specify something else (from the command prompt).
No, you have to define the language explicitly from the command line. Since the automatic detection is only based on the file name, it doesn't work reliably enough to use it without any user feedback. Imagine titles like "French Kiss" or "Italian Job"...
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Old 29th March 2009, 20:16   #151  |  Link
rizu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
You're welcome, although by experience, there's usually a "but".
As always But I like this SW as it is already, I currently use it to convert blu-ray subs to 1080p nonscaled vobsubs so I can mux my hd movies to mkv, no other SW can do it as far as I know

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
Ok, this sounds like a use case. Although I'm not 100% sure if I'd implement it this way if I would.
There are few drawback, sometimes subs are positioned differently just to avoid burned in subs or text on original movie but colliding on those with this kind of algorythm should be a rare case because such subs are already repositioned above normal position.

There are other ways around of course, like using resolution 1920x800 and some zoom mode for video on such playback SW where subs have fixed position. I'm currently playing with different ideas so it's hard to say directly what would work out best.

When I look into my blu-ray/hd dvd collection I'd say around half of the titles have subs inside the video frame and others are like on normal DVD release, partly outside the video frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
There's no such tool for SUB/IDX? Or which type of captions do you export?
I doubt current tools work with 1080p vobsubs

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
BTW: Changing Y position alone would be no complete solution. I stumbled over subtitles which nearly fill the whole screen vertically, since there's an upper line above the picture and a lower line below the picture. In this case, the described algorithm would fail, since the subpicture would need to be scaled down.
Agreed, that's why suggested to leave such frames unaltered and tell user about it. Scaling would be ideal but may make overall algorythm just more complicated? Anyways there are not many such cases anyway.

Would be nice to know if there are any other having same kind of ideas, I mean I can't be only one considering wider screen and needing subtitles at the same time
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Old 29th March 2009, 21:48   #152  |  Link
cavediver
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I just discovered this tool today and I must say I'm impressed. I prefer subtitles to be positioned in the black bar below the image in 2:35 movies. While BDSup2Sub can do this, I could only figure out how to do it frame by frame. Would it be possible to implement some sort of global repositioning box so all subtitles can be repositioned at once?
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Old 29th March 2009, 22:05   #153  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Damn, I can feel the pressure increasing to implement such a feature. Let's say, I'll consider it, ok? Dunno though how motivated I'll be the next days...
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Old 29th March 2009, 22:31   #154  |  Link
laserfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediver View Post
I prefer subtitles to be positioned in the black bar below the image in 2:35 movies.
Ha, ha! Cuz I need to get the subtitles INTO the 2.35:1 frame so I can project onto my 'scope screen!

Currently I make an .srt, then re-create and re-position using tsMuxeR, but if this tool could just re-pos the original sups that might work too (though now that I think of it, this may put the original sups too high into the picture).
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Old 30th March 2009, 06:36   #155  |  Link
turbojet
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Hopefully these pics will take out the confusion.

Clockwise from upper left: MPC-HC, 720p in suprip 1.13, 720p in supread, 1080p in bdsup2sub set to resize to 720p, 720p output in bdsup2sub

no swap in 1.26

swap in 2.6

bdsup2sub 2.4

panasonic BD30 shows what mpc-hc and suprip see in these cases.
the original 1080p source appears blue in bd30, mpc-hc and suprip, supread doesn't display.

to enable bdsup in mpc-hc you need to choose vmr windowless, haali or evr in options > playback > output, restart the player, then choose from navigate > subtitle language

if PS3 and BD30 are showing different colors I think there is an issue with bdsup2sub's color palette as the original displays blue on both players.

Last edited by turbojet; 30th March 2009 at 06:39.
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Old 30th March 2009, 11:40   #156  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Hopefully these pics will take out the confusion.
Well, if MPC-HC shows a SUP in this case (which is hard to tell), then this only proves that it uses the (inverted) color order that SupRip does, but not the one that the PS3 does.

Quote:
panasonic BD30 shows what mpc-hc and suprip see in these cases.
You kinda avoid talking about the original BD. How does it look like on the Panasonic? Or what is the "original source" exactly?

Quote:
to enable bdsup in mpc-hc you need to choose vmr windowless, haali or evr in options > playback > output, restart the player, then choose from navigate > subtitle language
OK, I'll try this later.

Quote:
if PS3 and BD30 are showing different colors I think there is an issue with bdsup2sub's color palette as the original displays blue on both players.
That's obviously a wrong assumption, as BDSup2Sub "has" not palette. It uses the frame palette defined for each frame of the SUP. Then again, if (and I'm not yet convinced that this is the case) the Panasonic shows different colors than a PS3 for the same original BD, there seems to be confusion about the color component's order even among different hardware vendors.
In this case, the definition in the BD specs was somewhat worthless anyway and BDSup2Sub way to handle it (via swap option) was the only possibility anyway.
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Old 30th March 2009, 13:22   #157  |  Link
jonathonsunshine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
Since the automatic (language) detection is only based on the file name, it doesn't work reliably enough to use it without any user feedback. Imagine titles like "French Kiss" or "Italian Job"...
I think your forgetting thou, EAC3TO and TSDEMUX and realistically, any program that is going to demux streams from something, will put the base title at the start of the file name, from EAC3TO for example, the english subtitles from "The Italian Job" would come out as

"The Italian Job - 10 - Subtitle (PGS), English, 1467 captions.sub"

so BDSup2Sub simply needs to load the LAST language found in the file name.


Also, for what its worth, the GUI successfully detected the following languages for me, granted, in a file name without conflicting language codes.

Italian, Spanish, French, Japanese, Korean, Swedish, Dutch... only one I found that may be a bug (or perhaps only my ignorance) is detecting what EAC3TO described as "Modern Greek" as "Greek"...

Also, your program rocks. But it still needs a switch for loading language tags automatically from the command prompt. If you think it is an issue then just turn it off by default, but I have a dream of dropping 15 sup files on a batch file...

Last edited by jonathonsunshine; 30th March 2009 at 13:28.
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Old 31st March 2009, 01:33   #158  |  Link
turbojet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
Well, if MPC-HC shows a SUP in this case (which is hard to tell), then this only proves that it uses the (inverted) color order that SupRip does, but not the one that the PS3 does.


You kinda avoid talking about the original BD. How does it look like on the Panasonic? Or what is the "original source" exactly?


OK, I'll try this later.


That's obviously a wrong assumption, as BDSup2Sub "has" not palette. It uses the frame palette defined for each frame of the SUP. Then again, if (and I'm not yet convinced that this is the case) the Panasonic shows different colors than a PS3 for the same original BD, there seems to be confusion about the color component's order even among different hardware vendors.
In this case, the definition in the BD specs was somewhat worthless anyway and BDSup2Sub way to handle it (via swap option) was the only possibility anyway.
Look again, I said BD30 and PS3 (USA) display the original as blue.

SupRip 2.4 or earlier works correct

Since 2.5 the inverse of the gui is what's being displayed on BD30. If gui shows blue the BD30 will show yellow with a bunch of orange spots and it's very difficult to read. If gui shows yellow BD30 shows blue.

I don't know how it is for Iron Man, if I had access to the sup I'd try it out.

But for now I will just stick to 2.4 as I don't want to play this guessing game with colors. At least until BDSup2Sub is fixed or I come across a colored sup that doesn't keep it's correct colors.

Thanks for the app anyways.

Last edited by turbojet; 31st March 2009 at 01:38.
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Old 31st March 2009, 10:36   #159  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Look again, I said BD30 and PS3 (USA) display the original as blue.
No, in fact you didn't. You said "if PS3 and BD30 are showing different colors" (which in the context sounds like a speculation), but you never said you actually tested it on a PS3. And even after I insisted twice, you don't talk of a BD, just of an "original".

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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
SupRip 2.4 or earlier works correct
No offense, but sentences like this make it hard to tell which of your statements are correct and which are misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Since 2.5 the inverse of the gui is what's being displayed on BD30. If gui shows blue the BD30 will show yellow with a bunch of orange spots and it's very difficult to read. If gui shows yellow BD30 shows blue.
I guess it's futile to repeat that 2.5 had a bug which stored colors as YCbCr, although YCrCb was read and displayed. But even then I can't really understand how this would lead to orange spots.

Just in case that this is still not 100% clear: when exporting SUPs, BDSup2Sub doesn't touch the palette at all. Neither colors are altered nor added. The only possible change to the palette is swapping the Cr and Cb components if (and only if) the swap option is active. This is what 2.5 always did by mistake.
Or to put in other words: the fact that 2.6 displays (!) different colors than 2.4 has no influence on the saved palette at all as long as you store a SUP. Conversion to SUB/IDX is based on the actually shown colors of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
But for now I will just stick to 2.4 as I don't want to play this guessing game with colors. At least until BDSup2Sub is fixed or I come across a colored sup that doesn't keep it's correct colors.
Well, you seem to be kind of unconvincable regarding this topic, so it's probably pointless to tell you that your refusal to use 2.6 is mainly based on wrong assumptions. I just hope that your misjudgement doesn't influence other users.

Let me put it this way: maybe the color model or at least he order of the Cb and Cr depends on some information in the original M2TS stream. E.g. it could be possible that it's bound to the video codec. If so, this information is gone in the ripped SUP stream. As far as I can tell, there's nothing in a SUP stream that would tell me if the colors are stored as YCbCr or YCrCb.

The only thing I can tell is that if I demux the M2TS of the German edition of "Iron Man" with EAC3TO, the color order needed to reproduce the colors displayed on a PS3 is YCrCb.
If there are discs or other circumstances which need YCbCr instead, I implemented the swap option, which makes BDSup2Sub behave exactly as it did before version 2.5 regarding SUB/IDX. For SUPs, 2.6 (with disabled swap option) behaves exactly like 2.4 anyway despite of the different colors displayed.
To claim that only 2.4 behaves "correct" and 2.5 and above lead to a "guessing game with colors" or simply "incorrect" colors, is therefore not really reasonable. The opposite is true: BDSup2Sub 2.6 gives you much more control than 2.4 did (or any other tool does).

BTW: I tried MTC-HC (1.2.990.0) with different output settings (EVR, EVR custom pres., VMR9 (windowed), VMR9 (renderless) - Haali was greyed out) and none of them showed any subtitle of any original (decrypted, but otherwise untouched) M2TS I tried. Now I updated to 1.2.1015.0 and it displays subtitles. But as I already guessed, the colors are different to what the PS3 shows (yellow is cyan, cyan is yellow).

Last edited by 0xdeadbeef; 31st March 2009 at 11:09.
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Old 31st March 2009, 13:20   #160  |  Link
turbojet
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Have you even looked at the pics?

If you have and read what I wrote you should know what I mean by 2.4 being correct and a guessing game with 2.5 and 2.6 as far as Panasonic BD30, SupRip, MPC-HC, PowerDVD, ArcSoft TMT, WinDVD, and BD Rebuilder is concerned. I really would expect to get the same color output the gui shows me which has been the case up until 2.5

Have you even tested the sup I'm working with that's still available?

Take that sup and see what color the original is on your PS3 and also see what colors are shown after running it through BDSup2Sub both swapped and unswapped and report back.
This way you can prove or disprove my assumption that if the original plays with the same color on all players but different then blue when ran through BDSup2Sub unswapped there's something wrong with BDSup2Sub's output.

Anyhow unless you test my sup I don't want to spend any more time trying to explain it through words to you.

Last edited by turbojet; 31st March 2009 at 13:53.
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