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Old 18th February 2009, 13:49   #61  |  Link
DJ Bobo
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@ 2bdecided
Looks better of course, but I don't think that the result is worth the pain. You would have to put 2 screens side by side for me to see the difference, but Bicubic on its own looks sharp enough for me.
I would upscale only if I have to. Like if I've got a 512x384 video that I need to get on DVD-Video or something like that.

@ Typhoon
OK, guess I'm gonna have to show you everything in detail.
Here is a side by side comparison:

See how much is missing from your picture on the upper and lower parts? About 96 pixels, that's 20% of the original height!
Normally they would crop 25% to get the 16:9 image, but I guess they worked on a slightly bigger image for the remaster (less crop margin), that's why I have a few pixels missing on the left and right sides.

By the way, the blu-ray is not an upscale from the DVD, it is true 1080p, but as mutilated as the DVD of course, since the 20% are missing on the blu-ray as well.
I invite you to read this review about one of the blu-ray releases. It says:
Quote:
Worse still, the "widescreen" presentation has been achieved by cropping the original 4:3 image. Not only is this an absolute disservice to diehard fans of the material, it's grossly negligent of the animators' original intent
See how much fun you get when you buy Funimation discs?
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Old 18th February 2009, 14:00   #62  |  Link
Typhoon859
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Originally Posted by DJ Bobo View Post
@ 2bdecided
Looks better of course, but I don't think that the result is worth the pain. You would have to put 2 screens side by side for me to see the difference, but Bicubic on its own looks sharp enough for me.
I would upscale only if I have to. Like if I've got a 512x384 video that I need to get on DVD-Video or something like that.

@ Typhoon
OK, guess I'm gonna have to show you everything in detail.
Here is a side by side comparison:

See how much is missing from your picture on the upper and lower parts? About 96 pixels, that's 20% of the original height!
Normally they would crop 25% to get the 16:9 image, but I guess they worked on a slightly bigger image for the remaster (less crop margin), that's why I have a few pixels missing on the left and right sides.

By the way, the blu-ray is not an upscale from the DVD, it is true 1080p, but as mutilated as the DVD of course, since the 20% are missing on the blu-ray as well.
I invite you to read this review about one of the blu-ray releases. It says:

See how much fun you get when you buy Funimation discs?
I know all this. Trust me - this takes me way back to February 2007 when they released the first Season of this remastered product. Personally, I love the widescreen, no matter the 20% cost. The quality is phenomenal and the widescreen gives such a cinematic and much more powerful experience. Say what you want but I support this all the way. I'm not complimenting FUNimation in any way because they're total cheap-asses and take every shortcut. In any case, more people like this than hate this.

EDIT: Btw, the link you sent me for the Blu-Ray review, I would've given the same rating. The quality in that movie was garbage. They screwed up on that one, idk... The rest of the movies are great.

Last edited by Typhoon859; 18th February 2009 at 14:19. Reason: I decided to click on the link ^^
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Old 18th February 2009, 14:16   #63  |  Link
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I did some more testing and the reason for the quality loss is the one that I thought. It's pretty much what Didee said. The detail loss is due to the x264 codec processing 1280x720 pixels vs. 720x480 at the same bitrate. That's why there's no loss without the resize - just the x264 codec. I'm an idiot for not realizing that. I always knew this but for some reason, the way I was seeing this process was that the image is processed with the codec and then the resize takes place. That's stupid, I know, but that's the order I was thinking in, due to all the factors that conflicted with the logic, probably also due to the fact that before I was doing this, I was applying the filters in FFDShow (for real-time filtering) where the image isn't reprocessed with the resize, obviously.

Added filters are of course going to help but.. In order to actually get any gain from this upscale, the AVS script would have to be perfect. This frame that I showed of another encoder where the effect didn't happen actually was encoded with a higher bitrate (now that I payed attention to the codec), though, the encoder's script also helped a lot. Without it, as I've tested, the x264 codec still would've destroyed a lot of the details.

*Also, I want to give an apology to you, Didee, for the dispute. I misunderstood the way in which you told me the statement due to the phenomenon of thought's conversion to text XD

Last edited by Typhoon859; 18th February 2009 at 14:28.
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Old 18th February 2009, 15:08   #64  |  Link
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I did some more testing and the reason for the quality loss is the one that I thought.
Actually, that's not what you thought. You fought that thesis all the way, claiming that the encoder had no effect. Just for the record.

Your gracious capitulation, however, can be an example for us all.
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Old 18th February 2009, 15:31   #65  |  Link
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Actually, that's not what you thought. You fought that thesis all the way, claiming that the encoder had no effect. Just for the record.

Your gracious capitulation, however, can be an example for us all.
No, I mean, out of all the different reasons thrown at me here, that's the one I thought it most likely to be. I responded with reasons why it wasn't the codec earlier. Those reasons that I gave are what confused me. Now that I sorted it out, I know it to be true.
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Old 18th February 2009, 16:33   #66  |  Link
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Your gracious capitulation, however, can be an example for us all.
It's nice to see a sense of humour creeping in here.

FWIW, I thought one of the benefits of many _good_ BluRay discs so far (not that I have any!) is that most transfers maintain the aspect ratio correctly - i.e. they're not afraid to include black bars at the sides for 1.333 and 1.667 content, or at the top for 1.8, 2.35, 2.4 etc etc content. It's quite a contrast from certain TV stations around here which try to crop everything to 16x9, no matter how much picture they're removing, or how small the black bars would be.

I think the more BluRay discs are differentiated from other sources by maintaining the correct aspect ratio, the better.

Cheers,
David.

Last edited by 2Bdecided; 18th February 2009 at 16:41.
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Old 19th February 2009, 11:16   #67  |  Link
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I've been playing around with this for an older animation.

I think it makes a useful difference. AVIsynth magic* on the left, original DVD bicubic resize on the right.

* - just temporalsoften, nnedi twice, limitedsharpenfaster twice, spline36resize to final resolution, and limitedsharpenfaster again! Hardly optimal, but it's not bad for a first attempt. Will try harder when I've removed the gate weave.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 20th February 2009, 19:29   #68  |  Link
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Alright guys.. Here's the final result.

Original


Final Result

Last edited by Typhoon859; 20th February 2009 at 20:09.
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Old 20th February 2009, 21:49   #69  |  Link
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@ 2bdecided
Definitely crisper (w/ appearant edge enhancement though), but doesn't throw me from my chair
But the colors look different, you didn't just upscale, did you?

@ typhoon
I told you, you're wasting your time. The only noticeable difference is the filtering, definition is practically the same.
PS: FUNimation DVDs are not good start material. Compression artefacts are always "on the house" by them
Wanna get blown off? Get the japanese DVDs, these are something! ZERO compression artefacts! And since you're so fond of upscaling, just get yourself a nice DVD player with good upscaling capabilities and then, and only then will you be in for a treat!

Last edited by DJ Bobo; 20th February 2009 at 21:54.
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Old 20th February 2009, 22:04   #70  |  Link
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@ 2bdecided
Definitely crisper, but doesn't throw me from my chair
But the colors look different, you didn't just upscale, did you?

@ typhoon
I told you, you're wasting your time. The only noticeable difference is the filtering, definition is practically the same.
PS: FUNimation DVDs are not good start material. Compression artefacts are always "on the house" by them
Wanna get blown off? Get the japanese DVDs, these are something! ZERO compression artefacts! And since you're so fond of upscaling, just get yourself a nice DVD player with good upscaling capabilities and then, and only then will you be in for a treat!
Dragon Box you mean? The Remastered DBZ DVDs by FUNimation look way better than the Japanese DVDs. That's because I think a different person made these than normally. Seriously, ask any encoder that has done both. The main encoder from the release group at irc.immortal-anime.net, #DBZ-The-Next-Level, Triforce, says the same thing. The Remastered Dragon Ball Z box sets are great. I only upscale the trailers, otherwise, the gain isn't worth the huge file sizes for full episodes.

The definition does help a little bit in comparison to the original BUT, it's much more noticeable when you encode to 704x396 vs. 1280x720, though of course with a higher bitrate. The lines are much less jittery.

-Normally though, all the other FUNimation DVDs, yes, of course they're not close to as good as the Japanese. These Remastered Box Sets are one thing they finally did right, although they have their fair share of problems as well, mostly not video related..
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Old 20th February 2009, 22:31   #71  |  Link
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