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Old 28th March 2008, 04:32   #1  |  Link
phnxcoyote
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Authoring Blu-Ray (with menus) without re-encoding AVCHD clips. Is it possible?

Software companies like Nero and Cyberlink still have a ways to go with their Blu-Ray disc authoring offerings, at least when it comes to dealing with AVCHD video. I've owned a Canon HG10 AVCHD camcorder for about 4 months now and have hours of high-def M2TS video footage archived on my network. I purchased an LG GGW-H20L BD/HD-DVD burner for my Duo-Core PC over a week ago in hopes that I'd be able to start burning Blu-Ray disc compilations of my HG10 footage, with nice-looking navigation menus, playable on my PS3 and high-def television. Not too much to ask for, no? Thankfully I purchased a blank rewritable BD-RE disc along with the burner because so far I haven't been able to burn a BD compilation I'm happy with.

I'm expecting to be able to take my HG10's M2TS AVCHD footage and author a Blu-Ray BD-MV (with menus) with NO loss of video quality. So far I've tried the latest version of Nero Vision and Cyberlink PowerProducer 5. The biggest issue with both applications is they waste hours and hours re-encoding video that's already AVC Blu-Ray compliant! The end result of the unnecessary re-encoding is a Blu-Ray disc with degraded video quality. Comparing footage from a BD authored & burned using Nero Vision or PowerProducer 5 to the original AVCHD clips, I see additional compression artifacts that do not exist in the original raw footage. Especially in scenes with motion. Or even looking at a scene with a green lawn. I see the same 'swimming grass' resulting from compression that I see when watching an NFL broadcast on my cable provider's HD ABC channel. Degraded video not acceptable. There should be no need to re-encode AVCHD clips that are already Blu-Ray compliant, provided you're encoding to Blu-Ray using AVC (not MPEG-2), and you don't apply any effects, titles, fades etc during the authoring process, in which case re-encoding would be necessary for at least some of the clips. What I don't understand is why the latest update to Nero Vision DOES implement SmartEncoding, straight transcoding of AVCHD compliant video without re-encoding, when authoring AVCHD DVD-5 & DVD-9 discs, but not Blu-Ray. From what I can tell, AVCHD on DVD-5/DVD-9 and BD are pretty much the same disk structure wise, so there's no reason SmartEncoding shouldn't work when authoring BD in Nero Vision. I've tried setting the encoding options in Nero Vision, making sure it's set to MPEG-4, not MPEG-2, with 1440x1080 resolution and 15 Mbps bitrate matching the source M2TS files. It still re-ends up encoding the video. It took Nero Vision over 12 hours to re-encode 2 1/2 hours of M2TS clips. About the same amount of time for PowerProducer 5. Tying up my PC for all that time, only to end up with a BD disc with degraded video. No thanks! Cyberlink PowerProducer 5 isn't worth purchasing in my opinion. I downloaded the trial version. The interface looks slicker than Nero Vision, that's the only good thing I have to say about PowerProducer 5. The menus PowerProducer creates look like crap with very little in the way of customizing, other than changing the background image and menu audio. It only comes with a couple horrible looking menu templates. You have to spend extra $$ to download additional template packs from Cyberlink's online store. Nero offers additional templates for download free of charge. And they look MUCH nicer than PowerProducer's menus, especially the motion 3D menus. Another negative about PowerProducer 5 is that it doesn't give you any options for encoding like Nero Vision. All you can do is either select AVC or MPEG-2 for Blu-Ray. It doesn't let you set the resolution, bitrate or option of 2-pass encoding like Nero Vision. Not that I'd want to select 2-pass. 12 hours for one-pass is enough wasted time tying up my PC!

If Nero can get the SmartEncoding working with Blu-Ray authoring to avoid re-encoding, that'll be my choice unless I find something better. Is there another affordable BD authoring package out there that will properly handle AVCHD clips without re-encoding? I've already researched Ulead's DVD MovieFactory 6+. It'll import AVCHD clips, but ends up re-encoding to MPEG-2 for Blu-Ray as it does not support BD with H.264 AVC.

I am aware that I can burn AVCHD clips to PS3-compatible BD data discs or BD-AV without loss of quality, but I don't get the navigation menus with either option. I prefer to have menus over having to fast-forward or skip chapter after chapter to get to the footage I want to watch.
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Old 30th March 2008, 11:20   #2  |  Link
danton1
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Sorry, canīt help. I have exactly the same problem. A lot of HD clip (Sony HDR-HC1) and films I want to put on a blue-ray disk with menus and no reencoding. I have also a LG blue-ray burner and a PS3. Is there a program which can make menus to a blue-ray disk?

Mvh/Danton
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Old 30th March 2008, 14:57   #3  |  Link
kabanero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danton1 View Post
Sorry, canīt help. I have exactly the same problem. A lot of HD clip (Sony HDR-HC1) and films I want to put on a blue-ray disk with menus and no reencoding. I have also a LG blue-ray burner and a PS3. Is there a program which can make menus to a blue-ray disk?

Mvh/Danton
danton1,

I also have Sony HDR-HC1, which is HDV camcorder, and I have PS3.

I use Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6+ with HD pack, which is $100 total.

I can author Blu-ray disk on BD-RE, and I can author AVCHD disk with MPEG-2 files on BD-9 (which is DVD-9 disk) without re-encoding MPEG-2.

PS3 plays these disks perfectly.

BTW,

I wrote a guide how to do that. You can download it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post13065746

Last edited by kabanero; 30th March 2008 at 15:02.
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Old 30th March 2008, 15:01   #4  |  Link
kabanero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phnxcoyote View Post
I am aware that I can burn AVCHD clips to PS3-compatible BD data discs or BD-AV without loss of quality, but I don't get the navigation menus with either option. I prefer to have menus over having to fast-forward or skip chapter after chapter to get to the footage I want to watch.
phnxcoyote,

For your purpose I would buy Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6+ with HD pack. It is only $100. The main thing that Ulead will not re-encode compliant files.
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Old 30th March 2008, 18:19   #5  |  Link
musicman2311
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hi, i might have 2 suggestions:

1. if you use AVCHD only, you can easily create a wonderful disc without recoding using AVCHD with Nero 8.
It allows you to even create an oversize disc which stores the result on had disc in a bdmv folder.
As far as I know, that one will work if burned to a BD-R/RE.

2. if you want to use other than AVCHD spec, i did this for a test - 2 movies with menue (2-D)

1. select to create Blu-Ray disc in Nero 8
2. use dummy videos from cam corder *.m2ts
3. author menue and create files (BDMV) - nero will always recode those movie clips, hence i use very small ones

now you have a playable file folder (BDMV) with 00000.m2ts for first movie and 00001.m2ts for 2nd and 00002.2mts for menue.

4.create BDMV for the blu ray files seperately by using e.g.
Tsmuxer - each output will have complete bdmv folder
with a stream called 00001.m2ts and playlist and clipinf accordingly

5. rename the tsmuxer output files (*.m2ts, *.pls, *. clpinf) to match the above created structure with menue

6. exchange the orginial files from above with the renamed ones

7. hex edit the playlist file, so it points to the renamed *.m2ts file. (in character field you might see 00001.m2ts - change it to e.g. 00000.m2ts for example)

that's it - i have tried that on a BD-RE on PS3 - hope it helps
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Old 25th April 2008, 17:13   #6  |  Link
v_o_r_t_e_x
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I just wanted to add my experiences with the latest NERO VISION (so far). When I use AVC files (MTS )from my Sony CX7, Nero detects that no encoding is needed: 100%! Fine... Now I edit those videos with Sony Vegas 8 Pro and export them to MTS files again.
Now nero tells me that Encoding is needed. Depending on the video a little bit more or less. Isn't that strange?

I tried to play those VEGAS files on my PS3: Works perfect.

So my question is: How to tell Nero Vision NOT! to reencode anything!

I tried to use small dummy files and then burn the disc with NERO.
That works, but the regular video will have the lenght of the dummy file. Looks like in the playlist or wherever, the length is stored.

Any ideas?!
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Old 2nd May 2008, 07:59   #7  |  Link
Bajunid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v_o_r_t_e_x View Post
I tried to use small dummy files and then burn the disc with NERO.
That works, but the regular video will have the lenght of the dummy file. Looks like in the playlist or wherever, the length is stored.

Any ideas?!
Hi,

Musicmann...I've been doing what you've suggested..but burning it onto a DVD-5 instead of a blue-ray. the wierd thing is that it came up as Data Disc on the ps3. I've then tried switching the index and bdmovie file in the bdmv folder but there's no menu and only one track is playable.

some kind of help is verymuch apprieciated

Last edited by Bajunid; 2nd May 2008 at 18:33.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 23:13   #8  |  Link
musicman2311
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hi Bajunid - on DVD5 you cannot use blu ray structure officially. means you need a avchd structure.
so you have to create an AVCHD with menu and dummy files.

then replace the videos and the corresponding clipinf and playlist files.

that will lead to the right indication of lenght of clips also.
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Old 4th May 2008, 08:46   #9  |  Link
v_o_r_t_e_x
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I found a solution; I use Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6 incl. HD Pack instead of Nero Vision. This one does not reencode my AVCHD Videos from Vegas 8 Pro.
But it would still be good to know why Nero Vision wants to do some strange reencoding.
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Old 4th May 2008, 13:27   #10  |  Link
Bajunid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman2311 View Post
hi Bajunid - on DVD5 you cannot use blu ray structure officially. means you need a avchd structure.
so you have to create an AVCHD with menu and dummy files.

then replace the videos and the corresponding clipinf and playlist files.

that will lead to the right indication of lenght of clips also.
Thanks again for assisting. Using Nero 8 if I were to create a AVCHD disc...Nero only create a 1440*1080 reso video...but my video is 720p...will it still work?

EDIT: I've got it working nicely. Thanks again Musicman. The encode looks great but it'd be great to have the menus and intro movie in 720p rather than 1080i.

p/s :Somehow there's no music played at my main menu although I'm sure there's one while testing the menus via Nero Vision before burning.

Last edited by Bajunid; 5th May 2008 at 00:37.
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Old 5th May 2008, 06:32   #11  |  Link
fib0by
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Originally Posted by kabanero View Post
I use Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6+ with HD pack, which is $100 total.

I can author Blu-ray disk on BD-RE, and I can author AVCHD disk with MPEG-2 files on BD-9 (which is DVD-9 disk) without re-encoding MPEG-2.

PS3 plays these disks perfectly.
Oh great, Ulead doesn't offer a trial version of the HD Power Pack, so there's no way I can test it to see if it does what I need.
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Old 5th May 2008, 18:50   #12  |  Link
kabanero
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Oh great, Ulead doesn't offer a trial version of the HD Power Pack, so there's no way I can test it to see if it does what I need.
fib0by,

Let me know what you need and I will tell if you can do this.
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Old 9th May 2008, 23:36   #13  |  Link
aklendathu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajunid View Post
Thanks again for assisting. Using Nero 8 if I were to create a AVCHD disc...Nero only create a 1440*1080 reso video...but my video is 720p...will it still work?

EDIT: I've got it working nicely. Thanks again Musicman. The encode looks great but it'd be great to have the menus and intro movie in 720p rather than 1080i.

p/s :Somehow there's no music played at my main menu although I'm sure there's one while testing the menus via Nero Vision before burning.
Musicman, your recipe worked for me as well, with H.264 720p TV episodes (up to 5 now).

Bajunid, I have the same problem as you: menu audio plays ok in NeroVision testing but not in final product. There's a sound hiccup when the disc loads but then no audio track is heard.
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Old 10th May 2008, 00:59   #14  |  Link
musicman2311
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Musicman, your recipe worked for me as well, with H.264 720p TV episodes (up to 5 now).

Bajunid, I have the same problem as you: menu audio plays ok in NeroVision testing but not in final product. There's a sound hiccup when the disc loads but then no audio track is heard.
I am glad I could help - FYI i have the same - unresolved menu soundtrack issue.

Actually, when I use the menu templates, it does work, however using another audio track - in my case about 4 min - it is silent on PS3. Note that Nero does not always code it correctly - haven't figured out the detail, but when i extracted sound from that m2ts file at first it was 'silent'. Then i imported wave file and that created a playing music file - but on PC only, not on Ps3.

Can it be that the menue time is limited to e.g. 20 sec ?

BDedit suggested that the track as 'menu' is only 1 frame long, i tried to manipulate it, but it didnt solve it.

Hope we find out
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Old 10th May 2008, 17:35   #15  |  Link
m1482
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Process your AVCHD file with TsRemux, then load the created m2ts file to Nero AVCHD template.
Nero should accept it without rencoding...

Last edited by m1482; 21st August 2008 at 19:19.
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Old 11th May 2008, 20:00   #16  |  Link
aklendathu
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Process your AVCHD file with TsRemux, then load the created m2ts file to Nero AVCHD template.
Nero should accept it without rencoding...
Do you know that from experience or from Nero Advertising ?
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Old 12th May 2008, 01:33   #17  |  Link
m1482
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Originally Posted by aklendathu View Post
Do you know that from experience or from Nero Advertising ?
From experience...
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Old 13th May 2008, 00:25   #18  |  Link
aklendathu
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From experience...
Well, I've recently purchased Nero 8 and I can't figure out how to do that. Can you give me some tips? I want to create an edited movie out of my HDD High-Def Sony camcorder without Nero reencoding the whole video stream.
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Old 12th June 2008, 15:36   #19  |  Link
phnxcoyote
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I finally found a software package that lets me author BDMV discs of my AVCHD recordings without re-encoding the video. It's Total Media Extreme by Arcsoft. I burned 25 gigs of AVCHD recordings onto a re-writable BluRay disc last night. It took about an hour and a half to burn the disc as the rewritable discs only go up to 2x speed. With Nero Vision, authoring a BDMV with the same content took several hours as it insisted on re-encoding the video, and I ended up with noticeably lower quality due to the re-encoding. With Arcsoft, the video was untouched. I'm still on the 15-day trial with Total Media Extreme and definitely plan on purchasing a license. You can download the 15-day full-featured trial version at http://www.arcsoft.com/support/downl...downloadid=411

To make sure Arcsoft doesn't re-encode your AVCHD clips when burning to BluRay, you need to set the video format to MPEG-4/AVC in the project settings. By default it gets set to MPEG2 which would require re-encoding.
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Old 6th September 2008, 16:47   #20  |  Link
baudi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman2311 View Post
hi, i might have 2 suggestions:

1. if you use AVCHD only, you can easily create a wonderful disc without recoding using AVCHD with Nero 8.
It allows you to even create an oversize disc which stores the result on had disc in a bdmv folder.
As far as I know, that one will work if burned to a BD-R/RE.

2. if you want to use other than AVCHD spec, i did this for a test - 2 movies with menue (2-D)

1. select to create Blu-Ray disc in Nero 8
2. use dummy videos from cam corder *.m2ts
3. author menue and create files (BDMV) - nero will always recode those movie clips, hence i use very small ones

now you have a playable file folder (BDMV) with 00000.m2ts for first movie and 00001.m2ts for 2nd and 00002.2mts for menue.

4.create BDMV for the blu ray files seperately by using e.g.
Tsmuxer - each output will have complete bdmv folder
with a stream called 00001.m2ts and playlist and clipinf accordingly

5. rename the tsmuxer output files (*.m2ts, *.pls, *. clpinf) to match the above created structure with menue

6. exchange the orginial files from above with the renamed ones

7. hex edit the playlist file, so it points to the renamed *.m2ts file. (in character field you might see 00001.m2ts - change it to e.g. 00000.m2ts for example)

that's it - i have tried that on a BD-RE on PS3 - hope it helps
Thank you very much Musicman2311.

It rulez like a charm.
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