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Old 23rd March 2008, 13:27   #1  |  Link
onlym3
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hard telecine

I have a TV show here, Day Break, and the DVDs seem to be hard telecined. I don't know how to actually recognise hard telecine but when i wanted to encode the first disc the bitrate was much lower than expected so i assume it is because of the extra frames you get with hard telecined material. I would like to remove the hard telecine so i can encode with DVDRebuilder and get a better bitrate. So here are my questions:

1. How do i remove the hard telecine from a DVD, my goal in the end is to have material i can then encode with DVDRebuilder.

2. How do i generally recognise if a DVD contains hard or soft telecined material?

I am not an expert encoder, so i would appreciate either simple or precise answers, i found a reply somewhere else that was "use the Big3" and that didn't help me at all because i have no idea what the Big3 are.

Thanks
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Old 23rd March 2008, 17:33   #2  |  Link
manono
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Hi-

1. You IVTC it (using TIVTC, Decomb, or some such AviSynth IVTC filter). That will require a complete reencode. To then use DVD-Rebuilder to reencode it yet again would be silly and produce inferior results (because of the the 2nd reencode). Better you back up the DVD manually. Or leave it as hard telecine if you insist on using DVD-RB for the job.

2. If soft telecined, running the preview on the VOBs in DGIndex will show as Film/Progressive. Other programs will show also show it as progressive (ReStream, Bitrate Viewer, etc.)

When you run a preview in DGIndex on true interlaced material as well as on hard telecined material, they'll both show as NTSC/Interlaced. Using Field Operation->Honor Pulldown Flags to make a D2V and then using that D2V in a simple AviSynth script, open the script in VDub(Mod). Scroll to a place with movement and start advancing a frame at a time. True interlace will have every frame interlaced. Hard telecine will have 2 of every 5 frames interlaced and can be IVTC'd back to being progressive 23.976fps. Using some players with the deinterlacing turned off and pausing to then step through the frames one-by-one can show you the same things.
Quote:
...but when i wanted to encode the first disc the bitrate was much lower than expected so i assume it is because of the extra frames you get with hard telecined material
I don't know if I'd make that assumption, if I were you. The best way to tell what you have is to examine the frames yourself.
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Old 23rd March 2008, 18:04   #3  |  Link
onlym3
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Hi,

thanks for the great reply.

Step one however is a big problem. I have always used DVDRebuilder to reencode, its a great tool and easy to use. So i don't even know how to reencode a DVD manually.
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Old 23rd March 2008, 18:24   #4  |  Link
steptoe
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Try having a look at the AviSynth forums, but I believe you need to find out exactly what type of TeleCine the source is, then you should easily be able to use an avisynth filter of function via DVD-RB and get the result you are after
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Old 23rd March 2008, 18:27   #5  |  Link
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Originally Posted by onlym3 View Post
Step one however is a big problem. I have always used DVDRebuilder to reencode, its a great tool and easy to use. So i don't even know how to reencode a DVD manually.
It's easy. Get DGMPGDec and Decomb. Read the Quick Start guide that comes with DGMPGDec. Then in your Avisynth script, put this after the MPEG2Source() line:

telecide()
decimate()

Load the script in your encoder of choice and you're off to the races.
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Old 23rd March 2008, 20:44   #6  |  Link
onlym3
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Load the script in your encoder of choice and you're off to the races.
Hi, as i have mentioned, i have never used anything else but DVDRebuilder. If i wanted to use CCE i wouldn't even know where to start. Would i need a separate avs script for each vob on the DVD? How do i then get the correct DVD5 size in CCE, etc...
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Old 23rd March 2008, 21:35   #7  |  Link
setarip_old
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@onlym3

Hi!

Simple suggestion, if I may:

Do one of the DVDs (without any attempt at altering) with Rebuilder - and see if the results are satisfactory and comparable to the original...
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Old 23rd March 2008, 22:57   #8  |  Link
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Originally Posted by onlym3 View Post
How do I then get the correct DVD5 size in CCE, etc...
So you want to make a DVD? Then don't worry about telecine and all that. Just do an ISO copy of your original. You can't improve the quality by raising the bitrate on a re-encode of a DVD.
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Old 13th June 2008, 04:42   #9  |  Link
DoctorM
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I've recently run into a similar problem. In my situation, one seasons (in the middle) of a 7 season show, is suddenly hard telecined.
Using OPV with CCE gives these discs a Q value of 29-30 unlike the rest of the season which come in under 20.
It does make for a noticeable drop in visual quality.

A manual rebuild WOULD do the job, but it can be somewhat time intensive (and of course there are multiple discs in one season).
My compromise is to use telecide(order=1,post=0,guide=1) WITHOUT a decimate.
The result may still contain 1 duplicate frame in 5, but it is progressive, doesn't confuse DVD-RB and the OPV value is now lower at 26.
I hope this helps.

Still it would be nice if IVTC were an option.
I know the author commented once that it would be difficult to make a check for true hard telecining so it was better to leave it out than have idiots using it when they didn't need it.
I think it's such an important missing feature that it should be added as a hidden option like IVTC=1 or something in the rebuilder.ini.

But what am I thinking, I'm still holding my breath for a PAL to NTSC feature (preferably with 4% audio slowdown as a sub-option.)

Last edited by DoctorM; 15th June 2008 at 16:17.
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