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Old 21st March 2002, 10:55   #1  |  Link
PFF
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Graphedit & OGM

probably been covered before here, but i couldn't find anything about it...

in order to get .ogm files to play on a Mac i (first) have to convert them to .avi's. Using graphedit (filesource - ogg splitter - avi mux - filewrite) in Virtual PC I keep running into the problem that the videostream gets damaged: all screwed up (blocks, smears, weird colors) for a couple of seconds after I seek in the file (using windows media player). The problem then disappears. Audio comes out fine.

This happens;
- On every one of the three files I tried;
- When processing video and audio together;
- When processing the video only;
- When just playing the graph;
- When rendering the media file.

Have downloaded the latest filters/binaries. Using an emulation of Windows2000.

Could anybody tell me what I'm doing wrong?
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Old 21st March 2002, 12:49   #2  |  Link
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Let me get this right:

You are trying to play a DivX / Xvid or what else video with ogg vorbis audio. For that purpose you convert them to AVI? You know that it isn't possible to play AVIs containing Vorbis soundtrack in WMP unless you install something like MediaXW. But this project has been canceled more or less because seeking was never possible in such AVIs.

The other thing is, that you try to play them in an emulation of Windows on top of MacOS? Well, I don't know nothing about Mac or VirtualPC but I got some experience with VMware and Windows 2000 on top of Linux and I can perfectly assure you that you'll never be able to watch video inside your virtual machine. The point is that the complete DirectX/DirectDraw/DirectShow stuff cannot be mapped on functions of the running XServer (the thing displaying the GUI in Linux). I guess it is the same with VirtualPC and the graphics layer of MacOS (however this is called, I guess in MacOS X it's nicknamed Aqua or so). So after all I wouldn't wonder if you are not able to get an overlay running inside your virtual machine.

Hope this helped. If I got something wrong please tell me.

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Old 21st March 2002, 13:12   #3  |  Link
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Thx a lot for the reply, but that's not quite the problem. Am trying to convert an .ogm fileformat (some have divx, some have xvid, all have ogg vorbis sound) to an .avi fileformat. The ogm file plays just fine under Virtual PC, albeit slowly, with sound and all and no video problems. Virtual PC by now can do directshow stuff.

Thing is: I want to play these files under Mac OSX, windows emulation is too slow. Mac OS can play ogg vorbis sound, but not for now ogm files with whatever in it. Therefore I need AVI's, which Mac OSX can handle (well, sort off..).

So one of the things I need to do is copy the divx/xvid videotrack form .ogm. to .avi file format. And there the video goes screwy.

Got me thinking though. Maybe it is some other weirdo emulation problem.
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Old 21st March 2002, 13:56   #4  |  Link
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Which version of the ogg filters are you using?
I know that some of the earlier version had trouble feeding out to an avi, as every frame came out as a keyframe (which is probably why you are getting the weird visual effects... when you seek to one of the 'fake' keyframes, you keep the current frame you were on rather than it decoding from the previous keyframe to the scrolled frame)
I believe that problem was resolved with 0.9.8.6 but I'm not 100% sure.

That said, when you convert the ogm to avi, with ogg sound (?) the audio plays ok? That would be very strange, as AVI has hissy fits trying to deal with ogg as the audio stream. Either than, or the ogm files already had mp3 audio streams.

Anyway, there are my thoughts

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Old 21st March 2002, 14:26   #5  |  Link
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Think you're right about the keyframes.

Thought bout the filter, but used 0.9.8.6 which I thought would do it. Gonna try the new one now to see if that helps.

Bout the sound: dunno. I keep it separated as an ogg track to mux it back in in Quicktime (yeah yeah, i know...the mac version is very good). The avi video is just an intermediary file to get something workable on Mac.

Thx vm for the help
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Old 21st March 2002, 14:42   #6  |  Link
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O.K, kick me, if you like!

I got the point now. Well, this seems a little bit strange to me as I don't know about Macs (I said so already).

You can actually mux Vorbis and DivX into Quicktime files on a Mac. Well, that's cool! If I could afford an Apple...

They are too expensive here, so I really don't know anybody using them, but still I'd like to lay my hands on that MacOS X (I'm sitting in front of Linux here and our network is DEC UNIX) as MacOS X is a real UNIX with a very nice look (just my opinion).

The other thing. Those emulators are doing very strange things sometimes. Did you try to do the same on a real PC? Maybe something with the time calculations gets screwed up through the emu layer. VMware funnily does really weird things when it comes to printing...

DirectShow is working inside the emulation then? That's funny indeed. I thought this is nearly impossible as video overlay needs some sort of direct access to the graphics hardware. Maybe VirtualPC has to redirect this thru the emulation....

I'm getting off topic, sorry.

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Old 21st March 2002, 14:43   #7  |  Link
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You need to convert your .ogm movies to .avi or .mov to be able to play them on your Mac. Problem with AVI is that there is no proper way of muxing a Vorbis audio stream to it. Only known way is muxing nandub ( with Vorbis RC3 .dll's taken from Vorbis SDK ) and playing with MediaXW DirectShowFilters, but this makes seeking impossible and there is no version of MediaXW DSF for Mac OS AFAIK.

So they only way to get this done is to convert the Vorbis audio to MP3 or any other audio codec Mac OS can playback and mux this in the AVI using either the normal way ( Nandub ) or maybe the graphedit way philippas was describing here in the FAQ ( just the other way around ... and you need a MP3 encoder DSF ? ).

I dont know at all about converting the .ogm to .mov ( with Graphedit ? ) but it may be possible ?
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Old 21st March 2002, 16:11   #8  |  Link
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Ok, cool, I understand your situation better now. You never put the audio stream into the AVI file; you stash it away to remux with Quicktime. Good move.

Let me (us all) know how the tests with the newer ogg filters go, I am somewhat interested.

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Old 21st March 2002, 16:27   #9  |  Link
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Yes indeed. But what we really need to do is turn up a Mac programmer or two and get them in touch with Tobias. Once that is done you will be able to just straight play em.
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Old 22nd March 2002, 01:13   #10  |  Link
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Thx for the suggestions.

New filter doesn't cut it either: still the same keyframe (?) problem. Next stage is search for an app that can restore keyframes, methinks.

Couple other things:
- Yes, somebody that gets .ogm to play (and build) on Mac would be very welcome indeed.
- Tiki4: IIRC (not a regular user of Windows) the newer VPC versions have an emulated videocard. Which makes it glacially slow, but workable for DirectShow stuff. And yes, Mac OSX is cool, cool and cool - though still a work in progresss.
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Old 22nd March 2002, 02:45   #11  |  Link
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AVIs created from OGM have seek problems. When you seek, instead of going to a keyframe it goes to a P frame, so the video is completely screwed up until it finds the next keyframe. This has nothing to do with audio as this also happens in soundless AVIs. I guess OGG Splitter isn't feeding AVI Mux correctly, because at play time AVI Splitter doesn't know where the keyframes are. I'm just guessing, but maybe this is the problem PFF is having with his AVIs.
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Old 22nd March 2002, 11:29   #12  |  Link
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OK. I'm no expert on avi architecture, but if Mikele is right, that sounds like it's not unfixable. All that would be needed is a way to tell the avi: stop screwing around and jump between keyframes like you're supposed to. Is there an app that can restore avi's in this way?

(please tell me if this is getting too OT for this forum)
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Old 22nd March 2002, 19:52   #13  |  Link
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Virtualdub can re-derive keyframes. Takes a while though.
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Old 23rd March 2002, 23:04   #14  |  Link
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yeah, takes forever but works (for those that need to know: use the extended open popup in VirtualDub).

probably get my ass kicked around here, but now that there is an OggMux: an OggDemux would be....well...

thx for the help.
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Old 24th March 2002, 01:21   #15  |  Link
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And for the record:

Tiki4: you can mux and ogg soundtrack and a divx/xvid video-stream into a quicktime movie (easy: copy/paste/save) but the audio at this point is unseekable and the large vorbis files associated with dvd conversion tend to crash.
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Old 25th March 2002, 00:56   #16  |  Link
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Key frames in export to AVI

There was a bug in the media type setup which cause every frame to be flagged as key frame in AVI. Please update to the latest version of the filters (0.9.8.9) and try again.

Best regards,
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Old 25th March 2002, 01:19   #17  |  Link
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It works great now, thanks!
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Old 28th March 2002, 16:33   #18  |  Link
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@PFF:

Maybe the same problem like Vorbis in AVIs?
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Old 29th March 2002, 10:39   #19  |  Link
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Tiki4: nope. the qt fileformat handles vorbis quite well, it's just that the qt playback component is, like, semi-alpha and can't handle large tracks yet.
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Old 2nd April 2002, 09:13   #20  |  Link
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It seems I should take a good look around. Which playback component? That of Ogg Vorbis for QT or something else?


By the way: how does this work: DivX or XviD in Quicktime. Is it better than Video for Windows AVIs (in terms of seeking and VBR audio)? I'd like to compare the playback on the two OS's.

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Last edited by tiki4; 2nd April 2002 at 09:15.
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