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Old 12th April 2005, 20:10   #1  |  Link
redguy
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from dv to lossless

this is my first post, so be gentle i have searched the forum but i haven't found any posts that can answer me properly.

i'm authoring a dvd. my source material is on DV format. i edit it in premiere pro, save the project and open it in after effects to do some color correction, etc. then what i want to do is to render it to some lossless format so i can encode it to mpeg2 later.
then all sort of questions arise in me, mostly concerning colorspaces.

what lossless codec should i use??? i know that:
-dv uses 4:1:1 YUV
-both premiere and afterfx works in RGB24/32 so i assume that there is some kind of colorspace conversion
is this correct or there is a better solution?

is it right to use huffyuv? i saw that fddshow has a huffyuv version that works in other colorspaces than RGB, so...

can i use another lossless codec that yields better compression (alparysoft/MSU/Lagarith/FFV1)?

please excuse my n00bness... thanks


Last edited by redguy; 12th April 2005 at 21:04.
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Old 12th April 2005, 20:36   #2  |  Link
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Please observe Forum rule 12: Do not ask what's best. Thank you.
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Old 12th April 2005, 21:04   #3  |  Link
redguy
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ok, got it
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Old 12th April 2005, 21:32   #4  |  Link
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Thanks.

I think you'll find HUFFYUV just dandy for your needs. The various lossless codecs just trade off speed for compression. HUFFYUV is a good compromise. It can do RGB or YUY2.

I wouldn't worry about the color spaces. DV source is so bad, IMHO, that a conversion will be like a drop in the bucket.
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Old 12th April 2005, 21:42   #5  |  Link
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thanks for the prompt answer

ok, so there should be no problem in using huffyuv in rgb

anyway i think i will use msu or lagarith, since speed doesn't matter that much to me as stability and filesizes
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Old 13th April 2005, 19:17   #6  |  Link
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I wouldn't use lossless compression just to preserve quality. Simply leave it DV encoded; DV is known to be stable across ~5 generations of recompression. You won't notice the difference, if you ask me - there's more loss during the MPEG-2 encoding.

Editing is done using DV in modern video editors, including Adobe Premiere. You should switch on the "smart rendering" option, which restricts reencoding for the edited parts, i.e. the parts of the video where you applied filters, transitions, etc. Unedited parts simply get copied without any loss - even without a DV-RGB colorspace conversion.

@neuron2: DV source is not bad

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Old 13th April 2005, 20:22   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb
@neuron2: DV source is not bad
Sorry, it must just be that my Hollywood DV Bridge is poor.

BTW, stimulated by this thread I tried out Lagarith. It's pretty cool. It kicked HUFFY's butt compression-wise on the one random file I tried! And it was fast, too.

Last edited by Guest; 13th April 2005 at 20:24.
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Old 13th April 2005, 21:47   #8  |  Link
redguy
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb
[B]I wouldn't use lossless compression just to preserve quality.
why is that? is it because lossless in this case could be detrimental or just because it isn't worthwhile since DV is good enough?

Quote:
Editing is done using DV in modern video editors, including Adobe Premiere. You should switch on the "smart rendering" option, which restricts reencoding for the edited parts, i.e. the parts of the video where you applied filters, transitions, etc. Unedited parts simply get copied without any loss - even without a DV-RGB colorspace conversion.
wow. sorry, i cannot find that option neither in premiere nor in afterfx, where is it?

Quote:
BTW, stimulated by this thread I tried out Lagarith. It's pretty cool. It kicked HUFFY's butt compression-wise on the one random file I tried! And it was fast, too.
lagarith's quite good indeed. i found just a slight difference in compression favouring MSU codec but speaking about compression/speed ratio, i think lagarith is the best.
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Old 14th April 2005, 13:22   #9  |  Link
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How I think about colorspace conversions and DV compression ....



DV YCbCr 4:1:1 is like an old wooden ruler with fat cm marks and worn edges.

MPEG 4:2:0 is the same as DV, but the marks are a little harder to see.

RGB is like a new metal one with sharp mm marks.

(BTW: VHS is like using your thumb as a ruler )

If you start out with a measure of a picture in blurry cm's (DV) ... you can transfer them to the sharp mm's (RGB)... goof with the measure ... and transfer it back (DV). When you do this you are not going to keep any mm detail ... but you didn't really start with any. It is also unlikely you are going to shift to a completely different cm ... unless you really goof with the stuff or are at the edge of the ruler. If you are shooting for mpeg, you have to convert back sometime.

BTW: I think goofing with it in sharp mm's (RGB) is better than cm's because you would get more drift in cm's depending on how you process. Sounds like your package does that.
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Old 14th April 2005, 14:00   #10  |  Link
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You can use AviSynth to frameserve to Premiere Pro using makeAVIS. Saves you a lot of hdd space (If that doesn't work read Q2.3 of AviSynth faq ...)

Last edited by Wilbert; 14th April 2005 at 14:02.
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Old 14th April 2005, 18:50   #11  |  Link
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one last thing...
my material is DV PAL, so i learned it is YUV 4:2:0

i suppose it still is the same, isn't it?
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Old 15th April 2005, 20:29   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Editing is done using DV in modern video editors, including Adobe Premiere. You should switch on the "smart rendering" option, which restricts reencoding for the edited parts, i.e. the parts of the video where you applied filters, transitions, etc. Unedited parts simply get copied without any loss - even without a DV-RGB colorspace conversion.
i understand, but i cannot use it because i apply coloring filters in afterfx to the whole edited film, so it *will* be recoded/recompressed if i render it to dv.
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Old 16th April 2005, 10:18   #13  |  Link
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Ok, but still: the loss won't be very noticable. I suppose you try it yourself and compare the results using lossless vs. DV compression, then encoding to MPEG-2.

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Old 16th April 2005, 13:11   #14  |  Link
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I have 2 questions BB,

Has it a true difference between video losseless and DV?
Which if there is?
During a conversion Lossless to DV or conversely, the quality obtained in the 2 cases are they similar or not?

Thank you in advance
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Old 16th April 2005, 22:55   #15  |  Link
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@bb
i encoded the same video, 4'14" DV PAL both in DV and Lagarith
DV -------> 875mb
lagarith --> 934mb

the encoding elapsed about 40' with both of them.

i think it isn't an option anymore to export to DV again if you have the chance to use lagarith, since the figures are very similar (only 7% of difference in size).

i haven't checked image quality, though. i will.
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Old 17th April 2005, 11:49   #16  |  Link
guada 2
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Compression without loss in video and audio can it be to compare itself.
I will try to be clear.

All the world and I as think as Flac Frontend 1.12a is the coder without loss par excellence.
And in the video, huffyuv 0.25, the last version of MSU, Logarith, DV etc.
Which privileged and why one rather than the other?
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Old 17th April 2005, 12:54   #17  |  Link
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All I wanted to say is that it's probably not worth the effort to try codecs other than DV, because DV is supported by all main video editors, and the generational degradation is so minor that at least after the MPEG-2 encoding step you won't see a difference.

But well, if you want the very best quality in all steps involved, try lossless compression, or use frameserving from the video editor to your favourite MPEG-2 encoder.

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Old 18th April 2005, 17:56   #18  |  Link
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@bb

crystal clear
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