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Old 2nd December 2010, 17:35   #1  |  Link
kurkosdr
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Mpeg-4 mvc (aka 3D) inside MKV

Suppose I mux a Mpeg-4 mvc stream in an MKV file. Will it play (in 3D) on:

1) PowerDVD, ArcSoft TMT, WinDVD?

2) Standalone MKV (DivxHD) players that also have Bluray 3D support?

It's strange that no software maker or hardware manufacturer offers official support for mpeg-4 mvc inside mkv, considering how easy it should be for players that already have Bluray 3D support.
Anyway, can any of the above players "accidentaly" play a mpeg-4 mvc stream inside a MKV, thinking they are playing the stream from a bluray? Has anyone tried it? (there is no need to re-encode anything, just lift the mpeg 4 mvc stream from the m2ts file and mux it inside an mkv)

PS: I solely blame VLC/MPC-HC/Mplayer and the x264 team for the total lack of mpeg-4 mvc support for MKV, because they could have set the example for software makers like Cyberlink and hardware manufacturers, as they often do when it comes to open formats.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 2nd December 2010 at 17:38.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 17:58   #2  |  Link
Inspector.Gadget
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I solely blame VLC/MPC-HC/Mplayer and the x264 team for the total lack of mpeg-4 mvc support for MKV, because they could have set the example for software makers like Cyberlink and hardware manufacturers, as they often do when it comes to open formats.
Commit a patch or stop pointing fingers.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 18:01   #3  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
PS: I solely blame VLC/MPC-HC/Mplayer and the x264 team for the total lack of mpeg-4 mvc support for MKV, because they could have set the example for software makers like Cyberlink and hardware manufacturers, as they often do when it comes to open formats.
I don't see your patch. Did you forget to attach it? I assume you're blaming us for not applying your patch, but if you don't attach it, I can't see how it's our fault.

The reason 3D isn't implemented in any major media players is because nobody cares about 3D except television manufacturers. Also because there's no standardized method of outputting 3D video. There's about 6 different methods out there, at least, all of them mutually contradictory; just see Youtube's "3D player" for an example of the madness.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 2nd December 2010 at 18:04.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 18:21   #4  |  Link
kurkosdr
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The reason 3D isn't implemented in any major media players is because nobody cares about 3D except television manufacturers.
For now. When the new 3D TVs that don't require glasses roll out, it 'll suddenly be everywhere.
They said the same about 1080p videos. "720p is fine", "upscalers will make DVDs look as good as 1080p", "most monitors are 768p so no one really cares" etc but when panel prices dropped, 1080p videos where suddenly everywhere, and VLC started to feel old. Videolan had to rush to get DXVA and multicore support for VLC.

Quote:
Also because there's no standardized method of outputting 3D video. There's about 6 different methods out there, at least, all of them mutually contradictory; just see Youtube's "3D player" for an example of the madness.
Ok, got to agree with that. But the fact there is no mvc support in x264 is somewhat strange, if we take into account that mvc is an open (as in open specs) format. Now, the only way to put an mpeg 4 mvc stream inside an MKV is to take it from an m2ts file as-is, which will result in a enormous file. It only serves as an experiment. The ability to re-encode would help 3D MKVs take over the world.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 2nd December 2010 at 18:24.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 18:23   #5  |  Link
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@kurkosdr

"Patches welcome!"
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Old 2nd December 2010, 22:12   #6  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
Ok, got to agree with that. But the fact there is no mvc support in x264 is somewhat strange, if we take into account that mvc is an open (as in open specs) format. Now, the only way to put an mpeg 4 mvc stream inside an MKV is to take it from an m2ts file as-is, which will result in a enormous file. It only serves as an experiment. The ability to re-encode would help 3D MKVs take over the world.
If you want to encode your own 3D content, you don't need MVC. AVC includes an SEI (frame packing) that allows signaling of 3D content.
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Old 16th December 2010, 17:24   #7  |  Link
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If you want to encode your own 3D content, you don't need MVC. AVC includes an SEI (frame packing) that allows signaling of 3D content.
Anyone know of a tutorial somewhere or instructions that explain how to use this type of encoding? I am specifically interested in experimenting with the frame alternation method. I assume you can take two discrete video views (video files) and combine them into one file. I wonder how big the resulting file would be? I wonder what devices could recognize the flag? PS3?

Mike
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Old 2nd December 2010, 18:54   #8  |  Link
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Just out of curiosity I would like to ask a general question about the mvc compression format. Does mvc allow to encode 3D content in a way that there are three "angles" encoded into one mvc stream, that's the 2D perspective, the difference from 2D to the left eye perspective and the difference from 2D to the right eye perspektive ?
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Old 2nd December 2010, 23:59   #9  |  Link
nm
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Just out of curiosity I would like to ask a general question about the mvc compression format. Does mvc allow to encode 3D content in a way that there are three "angles" encoded into one mvc stream, that's the 2D perspective, the difference from 2D to the left eye perspective and the difference from 2D to the right eye perspektive ?
MVC certainly allows more than two views but I don't know if this would work within the Blu-ray MVC specification or decoders designed to support that.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 20:27   #10  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
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Kurkosdr:
Please watch your tone. Blaming anyone for the lack of a feature is never a productive thing to do. If you care enough, start coding or hire someone to do it for you.
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Old 5th December 2010, 23:08   #11  |  Link
Lyris
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For now. When the new 3D TVs that don't require glasses roll out, it 'll suddenly be everywhere.
That's not happening any time soon. I've heard figures from 5 years to a decade.

Although I agree with you with your 1080p example. At first it was "nobody needs 1080p!", but suddenly the refuseniks shut their mouths when 1080p displays became affordable!
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Old 5th December 2010, 23:17   #12  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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That's not happening any time soon. I've heard figures from 5 years to a decade.

Although I agree with you with your 1080p example. At first it was "nobody needs 1080p!", but suddenly the refuseniks shut their mouths when 1080p displays became affordable!
There's a difference: 1080p doesn't give me a migraine upon watching it for 5 minutes.
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Old 16th December 2010, 22:31   #13  |  Link
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There's a difference: 1080p doesn't give me a migraine upon watching it for 5 minutes.
Touché, my friend.
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Old 17th December 2010, 19:55   #14  |  Link
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I really dislike this whole 3D-hate all over the world, all that talk about "dorky glasses".
About five-six years ago, when a friend of mine showed me what Stereo-3D gaming is, I was blown away by the depth of the effect. And then again, I decided to wait for better display technologies, like high-quality ones without glasses (what most people are doing today - waiting for such better tech), it was shutter glasses + CRT monitor back then, but time passed and nothing happened and by the looks of it, such tech was very far off in the future (and it still is), so two years ago I also started playing all games in S3D, at first with anaglyph glasses and soon after that I got the same cheap combo as my friend, and since than I'm only gaming in S3D and I'm never going back to regular 3D (mono). It's just different experience, it's like you've been blind with one eye up to that point. And I don't care how I look wearing the glasses (and my huge headphones for that matter) when gaming/watching, I'm not on a fashion show or something...

The thing about 3D movies is that when it's done right, it's great. But most of the movies these days are either 2D->3D converts, or shot by people which doesn't know what they're doing (with very few exceptions, of course), or simply animated movies . In time, cinematographers will learn to use 3D as great instrument, special effect of it's own, and then nobody will ever want to watch 2D movies again (well, there will always be 2D-only genres, but the profitable ones will be in 3D ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
There's a difference: 1080p doesn't give me a migraine upon watching it for 5 minutes.
Everybody feels that way in the beginning (me included, for the first few days, but maybe in a lesser form), but in time they'll be able to watch 3D for hours without break. Well, at least most of them - there are some people that can't see in 3D at all (not only movies, but in real life as well), the brains of others just can't buy the illusion, and it's a torture for them to watch it. Serious eyesight issues can also hurt the experience, and it's often recommended to such people not to watch 3D. But most important is the quality of the display (in terms of crosstalk (a.k.a. stereo ghosting)), and the 3D-quality of the content you're watching, these can greatly ruin the experience, and lead to eye-strain and headaches.

So I hope all things related to MVC, stereo-format flags with different containers and so on (aside from the BluRay world) will be settled soon and encoder/decoder and player developers can concentrate on implementing support for them (if they wished to).

Last edited by Zerofool; 17th December 2010 at 19:58.
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Old 18th December 2010, 00:59   #15  |  Link
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So I hope all things related to MVC, stereo-format flags with different containers and so on (aside from the BluRay world) will be settled soon and encoder/decoder and player developers can concentrate on implementing support for them (if they wished to).
+1.
Congrats.
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Old 6th December 2010, 00:03   #16  |  Link
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3D TV/movies are an incredibly silly gimmick that is being hyped and marketed to all hell because after the TV manufacturers managed to sell everyone flat and/or HD TV sets they needed yet another new gimmick that will require people to throw out their not very old, perfectly working equipment and buy new, slightly different equipment for twice the price instead.

Hollywood is in on it too because it's certainly easier to invent silly gimmicks that sell than it is to actually make good movies.

If you know your history you'll know they already tried this once 30 years ago or so, and it failed because it was such a silly gimmick. It's still a silly gimmick now, they've just gotten better at marketing.
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Old 6th December 2010, 12:39   #17  |  Link
kypec
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DS & TheFluff - I couldn't express better my feelings about 3D movies than you wrote it!
I used to love going to cinema in the past -> now almost every title I'm interested in is being presented only in 3D there. WTF?! I don't want to pay higher price just for that crap! I'm perfectly fine with lower priced conventional 2D version! Hopefully I'll be able to build a comfy home-cinema system in my living room one day to get big picture and rich sound and won't be forced to watch anything in 3D anymore. Everyone has dreams...but they don't have to be 3D necessarily.
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Old 6th December 2010, 13:46   #18  |  Link
sneaker_ger
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off topic: Isn't it possible to just wear glasses with both eyes using the same orientation? (Leaving out the higher price and discomfort of wearing these glasses.)
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Old 16th December 2010, 21:11   #19  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
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I believe frame alteration works like this:

View A = left eye
View B = right eye

ABABABABABABABAB etc...

So, in avisynth
Code:
lefteye=ffvideosource(...foo.avi)
righteye=ffvideosource(...bar.avi)

interleave(lefteye,righteye)
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Old 20th December 2010, 07:41   #20  |  Link
mariner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
I believe frame alteration works like this:

View A = left eye
View B = right eye

ABABABABABABABAB etc...

So, in avisynth
Code:
lefteye=ffvideosource(...foo.avi)
righteye=ffvideosource(...bar.avi)

interleave(lefteye,righteye)
Greetings Blue_MiSfit.

1. Does one end up with frame rate getting doubled, ie 60p becomes 120p?

2. Should the --frame-packing 5 flag be used?

Many thanks and best regards.
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3d mkv, mkv, mpeg-4 mvc, mpeg4 mvc, multiview, stereo-3d, stereoscopic

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