Xvid for standalones

[WimW]

A while ago, I found some information on encoding xvid for maximum standalone compatibility. But I can't find all the information now. Can anyone help?

Some points:

* I used DX50 as fourcc since some standalones don't know XVid. It's all Mpeg-4 anyway...

* But is's only Mpeg-4 compatible if I use modulo 16 for width and height?? Is this correct? Or can I use modulo 8 or 4?

* I had to use black borders in order to get a 16:9 or 4:3 aspect ratio for some players.

* I could only use the MPEG matrix?? Is that correct?

* I suppose no adaptive quantization. But Trellis is fine?? Is that right?

* No more than 1 consecutive B-frame.

* No QPel and GMC, though newer players play them.

Thanks,

Wim

[Sharktooth]

Maybe using search will help...:sly:

[WimW]

Well, I'm not exactly a newbie, and I've been doing exactly that for about an hour yesterday... figured people wouldn't mind me asking the question after that... maybe I was half asleep or something... that's possible... just point me in the right direction please!

[unskinnyboy]

@WimW, Different standalones have different chipsets and different chipsets work different ways. So your question is ambigous unless you say what brand your standalone is and what chipset it uses . So for generic information like this :search:, and if you do have one of the common players, then also :search: because it might already been discussed.

[bond]

if you have no clue and you dont want to use search, than enable the divx home theater profile in xvid. it will disable/not allow every setting not supported on ALL divx certified hardware players

[WimW]

Guys, I can understand why you keep saying "use search" but as I said: I'm not a complete newbie, nor an idiot. I seriously searched but I could not find the information I found last time. Maybe I didn't search for the right keywords. I tried "xvid standalone matrix" and may more like those, both in Google and on the forum.

I'm not looking for a specific standalone, since I don't have one. I'm looking for mpeg-4 compliance and compatibility with most divx-capable players. I already know most of the implications: no QPel, no GMC etc. etc. There were just a few gaps in what I remembered, and I indicated them in my original post.

If I'm completely overlooking some very important issue, and that's why you think I didn't do my homework, then please say so! As I said: I did do a lot of searching! Otherwise, could someone please answer the couple of little questions, or just give me a link, or even a suggestion for better keywords.

Thanks!

[bond]

I'm not looking for a specific standalone, since I don't have one. I'm looking for mpeg-4 compliance and compatibility with most divx-capable players. I already know most of the implications: no QPel, no GMC etc. etc. There were just a few gaps in what I remembered, and I indicated them in my original post.

If I'm completely overlooking some very important issue, and that's why you think I didn't do my homework, then please say so! As I said: I did do a lot of searching! Otherwise, could someone please answer the couple of little questions, or just give me a link, or even a suggestion for better keywords.
whats so hard about reading and understanding my post?

[WimW]

Nothing hard about it. I misread it the first time... thought you were telling me to use DivX. Thanks!

[SeeMoreDigital]

@WimW, Different standalones have different chipsets and different chipsets work different ways.Ain't that the truth....

And unfortunately.... even when you have different players fitted with the same chip-set there's no guarantee they will react to the same MPEG-4 stream in the same way. As much will depend on how proactive individual manufacturers are at updating their players firmware :eek:


Cheers

[bond]

the only thing that will ensure that your stream will play on EVERY divx-certified player is enabling the divx home theater profile (both in xvid and divx)

its easy and straight forward

[unskinnyboy]

But then WimW should ensure that he buys a DivX-certified player only since there are other MPEG-4 players which doesn't behave the way a DivX-certified player does (i.e, handling packed bitstream, max. cons. bvops etc).

But one thing I don't understand is if the author doesn't own a standalone already, why is he researching into which settings are compatible with almost all the players? Isn't it better that he buy one first and then look into which settings can he use to make encodes which will play in it? Unless these encodes are for distribution..?

[SeeMoreDigital]

I think we can all agree that the entire MPEG-4 ASP compatibility issue in stand-alones is certainly more complicated than it should be!

I guess I must be quite lucky as my stand-alone has been able to spin all my XviD ASP test files, with anything up to 3No B-VOP's, with or without packed bit-stream... I've also tested XviD B-VOP settings, such as AQ and VHQ, without problems.

If you need some personal recommendations, they are: "Don't buy cheep - just because you can" and "Don't buy unknown/unrecognised brands".... And read peoples personal experiences with their players!


Cheers

[WimW]

Unskinnyboy, I'm trying to avoid reencodes if in the future I do decide to get a standalone. And it just doesn't seem right to me to do encodes that will only play on a PC if the difference is just a few settings...

[mgh]

If you have XP and are converting mpgs from VCDs or vobs-just use avi.NET

[vocoder]

uManiacs builds seem to work for both PC and standalones (Ritech & Philips units tested so far). Unfortunately, the implementation is old, and lacking many features which enable more control, and most efficient compression.

[Harley Quin]

I don't have a standalone either but I perfectly understand your question. I want kind of maximum compatibility and fortunately my AVIs play on all different players at my brother's and friend's. So my (limited) experience is:

FourCC: DX50 worked always, XVID sometimes
Mod: I always use 16/16 but I read: width16 is imperative, height16 is recommended
Aspect Ratio: Yes. *sigh* I prefer encoding in the movie aspect ratio for viewing on PC but some players can't show that correctly, they seem to need anamorphic encoding.
Matrix: h.263 or MPEG as quantization types work both. I never tried CQMs on standalones
My experience is, that no AQ / no QPel / no GMC / 1consB-frame / PB on and Trellis on worked always.
Problem is, you can never tell for the next SAP. :)
I use CBR mp3 for compatibility reasons as well, I have no VBR experience on SAPs.

Some links:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=88712&highlight=standalone+options
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=573342#post573342

Hope that helped
Greetings

[WimW]

Thanks, Harley! It is kind of a waste of space to encode black borders... Maybe I'll give up on those and hope for the best as for standalone compatibility.

[bond]

i kinda hate to repeat myself, but this issue has very clearly only one answer:

the only thing that will ensure that your stream will play on EVERY divx-certified player is enabling the divx home theater profile (both in xvid and divx)

its easy and straight forward

[numaios]

* I could only use the MPEG matrix?? Is that correct?
Actually the MPEG matrix couldn't be supported for some players. The h.263 matrix is fully compliant.
* I suppose no adaptive quantization. But Trellis is fine?? Is that right?
That doesn't affect the compatibility (adaptive quantization is something like psychovisual enhancements in DivX and Trellis activates a rate-distortion algorithm, so they don't affect the compatibility).
* No more than 1 consecutive B-frame.
That deppends on the SAP, but the new ones support more than 1 consecutive B-frame.
* No QPel and GMC, though newer players play them.
You can use qpel for the newer players, but any player won't read XviD's GMC (although a lot of them support DivX's GMC).

I think the real problem you might have would be to use or not to use packed bitstream. But if in the future your player doesn't support PB, you can't deactivate it without reencoding (just with MPEG4Modifier).

[bond]

That doesn't affect the compatibility (adaptive quantization is something like psychovisual enhancements in DivX and Trellis activates a rate-distortion algorithm, so they don't affect the compatibility).this is not true
xvid's adaptive quantisation lets the encoder vary the quants used inside each frame, whereas normally the quants can only vary in between frames, so this indeed changes the bitstream and could cause interoperabiltiy problems with crappy decoders

as you said divx' psy and trellis dont do this

[numaios]

xvid's adaptive quantisation lets the encoder vary the quants used inside each frame, whereas normally the quants can only vary in between frames
Oh, good to know. Thanks for the info! :)

So if you enable some DXN profile, is Adaptive Quantization automatically disabled?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Oh, good to know. Thanks for the info! :)

So if you enable some DXN profile, is Adaptive Quantization automatically disabled?Not in my experience :eek:

[numaios]

Not in my experience :eek:
OMG! So enabling DXN profiles doesn't guarantee full compliancy! :eek:

[SeeMoreDigital]

OMG! So enabling DXN profiles doesn't guarantee fully compliancy! :eek:Not in my experience!

The only XviD profile that locks out "AQ" is "Simple @ L0".... But then there's still the issue of "VHQ" and maybe even "Chroma Motion" to consider...


Cheers

[numaios]

Not in my experience!

The only XviD profile that locks out "AQ" is "Simple @ L0".... But then there's still the issue of "VHQ" and maybe even "Chroma Motion" to consider...

Cheers
OMG! Are you telling me that VHQ and Chroma Motion can also cause compliancy troubles? I thought they just did a more accurate motion search (Chroma Motion = Motion Search Precision level 7), like sort of an "Insane" quality mode... :rolleyes:

By the way, it's completely impossible to check if a XviD video has been encoded using VHQ or Chroma Motion, am I wrong?

[SeeMoreDigital]

OMG! Are you telling me that VHQ and Chroma Motion can also cause compliancy troubles? I thought they just did a more accurate motion search. :rolleyes:With regard to "VHQ"... tell that to the Sigma EM8551 chip-set inside my ADS Media-Link device and my Xcard.

EDIT: Here are some (video only) XviD 2B-VOP test samples I use to test my devices... Why not give them a go yourself: -

XviD 2B-VOP with PBS (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/MPEG-4_Player_Test_Files/XviD_2B-VOP_with_PBS.7z)

XviD 2B-VOP without PBS (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/MPEG-4_Player_Test_Files/XviD_2B-VOP_without_PBS.7z)

Each folder contains 4No samples, with variations of AQ and VHQ.

Cheers

[numaios]

With regard to "VHQ"... tell that to the Sigma EM8551 chip-set inside my ADS Media-Link device and my Xcard.
Oh, that seems interesting... Is there any specific thread about this weird issue?

EDIT: Oh, wonderful, I'll test your samples. By the way, which level of VHQ did you use? Mode Decision or Wide Search? Or is it irrelevant?

[SeeMoreDigital]

By the way, which level of VHQ did you use? Mode Decision or Wide Search? Or is it irrelevant?Motion Search Precision = 6
VHQ Mode = 1


There are a few threads talking about Xcard and XviD B-VOP issues. There's not very much info about XviD B-VOP and the Sigma EM8551 chip-set because the problem has only just started to surface!

I must stress, all the tests samples I generate have been encoded at full DVD resolutions ie: 720x576 or 720x480. The anomalies are less apparent at lower resolutions!


Cheers

[stephanV]

OMG! Are you telling me that VHQ and Chroma Motion can also cause compliancy troubles? I thought they just did a more accurate motion search (Chroma Motion = Motion Search Precision level 7), like sort of an "Insane" quality mode... :rolleyes:

You're right, they dont affect the bit stream compliancy.

[SeeMoreDigital]

You're right, they dont affect the bit stream compliancy.That's what I had always thought...

But something in the encode is upsetting playback in some devices... And switching on "VHQ for B-frames too" seems to make things worse!

I would really like to know what/why this could be? And can it be considered as being a compliancy issue?


Cheers