I'm lost here, Quantization matrices

[apfraats]

I use CCE 2.66.01.07 with DVD-RB-PRO.

Can you use quantization matrices that are predifined in DVD-RB-PRO ?

What do they do ?

What's the use of them ?

I now only use 'default encoder' settings for the matrices.

If I want the most optimal results using CCE 2.66.01.07 with difficult material such as low-bitrates stuff, can I improve the result using other matrices ?

If I want MAXIMUM VBR adjustment for a DVD backup, so bitrates are LOW when they can be without affecting image quality and can go up suddenly if fast moving scenes needs higher bitrates, is there something to be done with matrices ?

N.B: I always use BIAS=0 and precision=64 to get the highest possible headroom for bitrate adjustments (=full VBR) with the most minimal possibility getting 'blockiness' images (prec.=64).


I definitely want no 'blockiness' images, and with these settings I always get good results, but sometimes I have pretty low DVD-RB selected bitrates for the VAF-files.

Can someone tell me about the quantization matrices ?

Do they work at all with CCE SP 2.66 ?

Suppose I have low bitrate for VAF , and want maximum image quality, is it better to select a different matrix or is encoder default always the best ?

I know, you probably say test and see for yourself. But that means losing lot's of time experimenting and comparing.


Thanx in advance

[Fishman0919]

I use CCE 2.66.01.07 with DVD-RB-PRO.

Can you use quantization matrices that are predifined in DVD-RB-PRO ?

What do they do ?

What's the use of them ?

I now only use 'default encoder' settings for the matrices.

If I want the most optimal results using CCE 2.66.01.07 with difficult material such as low-bitrates stuff, can I improve the result using other matrices ?



I could spend about 30 pages explaining what is really is or provide links but in short.... it's a way to help tune your Mpeg2 enocder (CCE 2.66.01.07) to better encode at a given bitrate.
If you run the Prepare phase and DVD-RB tells you the avg bitrate is say... 2,328 Kbs... Ex.
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 53.2%
- Overall Bitrate : 2,910/2,328Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,183,624KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = 26.0%
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 3,232/582/2,328 Kbs
[21:26:00] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 2 minutes.

picking a Matrix like Low_High(1800-2500) or Angel BestLow (1900-2500) in DVD-RB will help with the picture quality. There are a lot of matrices that will work well for that bitrate so you can pick which one you want... most in DVD-RB are labeled with the bitrate they work well with.

Do they work at all with CCE SP 2.66 ?

Yes, pretty much all ver of CCE SP after CCE SP 2.50 can. 2.66, 2.67, 2.70 all can and work with DVD-RB

[Mr. Monte]

What would CCE do as a "default" for that bitrate? (I.E...keeping the default encoder settings?

TIA

[Rockas]

I know, you probably say test and see for yourself. But that means losing lot's of time experimenting and comparing.
Yes... you are right... if there was no RME, but there is, isn't it? :D
Check the Rebuilder's Matrix Editor (RME) thread... it will help you :)

kee it UP

[Fishman0919]

What would CCE do as a "default" for that bitrate? (I.E...keeping the default encoder settings?

TIA


CCE uses the 1 of the MPEG2 Standard Matices...

08 16 19 22 26 27 29 34
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 37
19 22 26 27 29 34 34 38
22 22 26 27 29 34 37 40
22 26 27 29 32 35 40 48
26 27 29 32 35 40 48 58
26 27 29 34 38 46 56 69
27 29 35 38 46 56 69 83

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
19 20 21 22 23 24 26 27
20 21 22 23 25 26 27 28
21 22 23 24 26 27 28 30
22 23 24 26 27 28 30 31
23 24 25 27 28 30 31 33

This is the one used by default for CCE SP 2.66, 2.67 and 2.70... and I'm pretty sure it's the same as Medium_Medium(2800-3500) in DVD-RB

[apfraats]

Firts let's thank all for the answers.

If I get it rigjht, the encoders deafult Matrix is not always THE BEST solution.

I was expecting the encoder to adjust itself to the Mpeg stream it has to encode again, but seeing all the answers this is not true.

But I will see the tread about the matrix editor and just do some testing myself.

I know noe it's a fine-tune concept. That means using CCE you have 3 variables for encodeing:"

-1- The matirix used.
-2- VBR_BIAS
-3- PRECISION

Probably this would mean experimenting a lot with other matrices.

I would have like to see something like 'Highly adaptive VBR matrix', thus meaning a matrix that forces CCE to better allocate it's bitrates amongst less and more demanding scenes within the headroom provided.

But I now suspect the matrix to be used is more depending on the bitrate of the source material that's (VAF-files) presented to the enconder.

I will do some experimenting. But one main question is still there:

IF YOU USE A LOW BITRATE MATERIAL AND THE ENCODER PROVIDES 'BLOCKINESS' RESULTS, CAN AN OTHER MATRIX IMPROVE THIS ?

Thanx in advance.

[SAPSTAR]

IF YOU USE A LOW BITRATE MATERIAL AND THE ENCODER PROVIDES 'BLOCKINESS' RESULTS, CAN AN OTHER MATRIX IMPROVE THIS ?

Thanx in advance.
Yep definitely....for very low bitrates I would recommend Bach1....otherwise you can give a try with AutoQMatEnc (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=679821#post679821).

[pg55555]

"I was expecting the encoder to adjust itself to the Mpeg stream it has to encode again"

Actually it is my undersatnding CCE SP 2.70 has a kind of "adaptative matrix" that do what you were expecting.
But RB disables this function by default because there are reports the encoded video does not work in certain standalones (or something similar)

[jdobbs]

But if you want to use it anyway, you can enable it by adding CCEAQM=1 to the [Options] area of the INI file.

[Fishman0919]

"I was expecting the encoder to adjust itself to the Mpeg stream it has to encode again"

Actually it is my undersatnding CCE SP 2.70 has a kind of "adaptative matrix" that do what you were expecting.
But RB disables this function by default because there are reports the encoded video does not work in certain standalones (or something similar)


Only if CCE sp 2.70 cannot keep the minimum bitrate, it will cutting the value of each element in the matrices by half, quarter till it can produce a much lower distortion for much higher bitrate.

[manono]

Yes, I found that interesting as well. You'd think it would work the other way also. That is, when you get real complex scenes, and the quants zoom, and the bitrate hits the max, you'd think that when enabling AQ it would switch to a lower bitrate matrix by doubling the numbers or something similar. But no, it only switches to a higher bitrate matrix when it can't keep to the minimum bitrate specified, and not to a lower bitrate matrix to keep it from blocking during complex scenes. Maybe in a future version of CCE...

Edited later for clarity.

[glassvial]

Wow, most of this post is way over my head, so pardon my jumping in. I've been encoding some stuff lately that's pretty low bitrate (even did one the other day that was in the 1800's, seriously). Using CCE 2.70.02 and DVD-RB, so would one of you mind holding my hand for a minute and telling me what I need to do to get the final output quality looking a little better (there's nothing to strip out of these discs). Someone mentioned bach1, and CCEAQM=1, I have no idea what either of those mean. Thanks for the education :)

[manono]

Hi-

There are a couple of low bitrate matrices included by default in CCE. Just switch to the Very Low Bitrate Matrix, and if that doesn't make it look good enough, then try the Ultra Low Bitrate Matrix. You can also stick some filters in the .avs, such as Undot, Deen, RemoveGrain, or a host of others that will aid the compressibility.

To use other matrices, such as the ones you mentioned, you first have to get them, and then fill in all 128 numbers manually in the CCE matrix boxes, and then save it under a new name. There are several other low bitrate matrices included in thr Rockas Matrix Editor.

RB-Opt allows you to select the matrix you want for either the Regular or Pro versions of DVD-RB, and the Matrix Editor allows the same thing for the Pro version. Someone please correct me if I've gotten anything wrong.

[glassvial]

Uhh, it sounds easier to use the built-in matrices ;)

Also, aren't you supposed to NOT use filters unless the source is poor? The source material is actually quite good.

And I've tinkered around with RB-Opt before, I probably need to update it, but, I usually use it to really cram down the bitrates on certain things (for example, the credits of a TV show, who cares?)

[manono]

Hi-

Also, aren't you supposed to NOT use filters unless the source is poor?

Matter of preference, I suppose. You said the output was poor, and for low bitrate extras I filter as a matter of course. In my opinion, the slight damage done by judicious filtering is more than offset by the compressibility gained from the use of such filters, when you have to use low bitrates. Of course, for a main movie with a decent bitrate, the most I'll use is Undot, and usually not even that.

Have you made sure to remove any unwanted audio streams, and such things as the warnings and logos? And if you have a large menu clogging up the DVD, I wouldn't hesitate to still it with MenuShrink. Anything to boost the video bitrate for such extreme cases as yours.

[glassvial]

There are no extra audio streams to take out, I did take out the stupid warning screens (not much of an improvement but every little bit helps). I don't recall how big the menus were offhand, I don't think they were all that flashy. I've got a couple more discs I need to work on that I'm sure are gonna be pretty extreme, I'll post back with what their bitrate is gonna be after a prepare phase.

[apfraats]

Are you using Episodic Disc, which means more episodes of a serie for example on a disc ?

If yes you can easaly bklank them out with DVDSHRINK and put in a still daying "USE DISC B" and on disc B you put in still saying "USE DISC A"

I always split up large Episodes disc (for example with 4 episodes) in two with each having 2 episodes on it.

If it's not an episodic disc, you can use something like DVDREMAKE PRO or else to spil up the movie nicely into two discs.

I always do that and often in the authoring of a large DVD there is a part at the middle that's small and you can repeat this mall part as introducting on disc 2.

You can even make disc 1 ending with "PLEASE INSERT NEXT DISC"

But I don't know if you have these tools.

What kind of DVD is it ? Episodic ? Just a long Movie ? or else...

There is some improvement to do with using matrices but keep in mind that mppeg-2 is quality is mainly depending on bitrates. You cannot make a low-bitrate looking good overall on a disc were are demanding scenes.....

Are you also using VBR with CCE at max.?? This means setting VBR-bias to 0.
And you can set Precision to 64 to take care as much as possible for pixelization.

Some DVD are encoded with CBR at for example 7000 mbits/sec.

You can gain significant quality improvement bij re-encoding this with VBR, cause on a lot of scenes the bitrate can drop without losing quality.

[glassvial]

Not episodic. I usually use 5-pass CCE with the default settings, which is VBR_Bias at 25 and Quality Prec at 16, and so far no matricies. This disc I'm about to encode now tells me the bitrates are 3155/819/2965. How should I set the matrices up, or which ones should I select, or whatever? Thanks.

[Rockas]

Not episodic. I usually use 5-pass CCE with the default settings, which is VBR_Bias at 25 and Quality Prec at 16, and so far no matricies. This disc I'm about to encode now tells me the bitrates are 3155/819/2965. How should I set the matrices up, or which ones should I select, or whatever? Thanks.
Make a few and fast tests using Rebuilder's Matrix Editor and you'll find the answers to your questions :D

[apfraats]

Not episodic. I usually use 5-pass CCE with the default settings, which is VBR_Bias at 25 and Quality Prec at 16, and so far no matricies. This disc I'm about to encode now tells me the bitrates are 3155/819/2965. How should I set the matrices up, or which ones should I select, or whatever? Thanks.


If I was you I would do 100 passes ! (No just joking, surely when testing use no more then 3 passes, the rest is irrelevant to overall picture quality).
Again set VBR_BIAS to 0. Forcing FULL VBR and set PRECISION to highest value (64 in my case). That high precison takes more care for scenes that have pixelization. It's at an expense of the scharpness of greater flat parts in the images some say, but I've never seen it.

I'm curious,do you have a tool to look at the bitrate of the original ?

Like bitrate-viewer ?

Maybe youre source has a high CBR encoded Mpeg stream, wich can explain drops in high/low/avreage bitrates. CBR is taking a lot of space and full VBR I always prefer.

Tell me how long the movie is in time, it's aspect ratio (4:3)/(9:16) and the audio tracks you keep. DTS takes a lot of space. Sometimes menus do too and can be up to 800MB ! (I've seen it).

So defenitely try a MOVIE ONLY backup.

Throw a DTS track away if you have it and you have also 5.1.

Give me some details. I almost never have a disc that's that difficult to compress.

Also consider to spil up the movie into two parts if all isn't working out for you.

Again, you can adjust en do some 'magic' with matrices/filters. But still the main quality aspect (if source is ok) will always be the BITRATES.

If you have a 3 hour movie with a lot of action scenes and 5.1 on it, it's almost impossible to compress it to one 4.35 disc without significant quality loss.

If these rare case I just split the movie into two parts.

You can use low-level tools such as PGCedit which requires a lot of understanding of the bits and bytes, but you can also consider to get DVD-REMAKE-PRO which is a high level DVD manipulation tool. And the site that sells DVD-REMAKE-PRO has a lot of examples doing things like splitting DVD's and even Merging DVD's.

As said you can even make a nice ending on disc 1 saying "Insert next disc"

The stuff you need for this is already on the site.

Take a look at: www.dimadsoft.com

The tool is a bit expensieve but not too expensive.

For the PRO version the ask 49,95.

If you want to have complete control over DVD navigation and structure, and you want to remove or cut titles it is an ideal tool. It's user-friendly and you haven't do a big learning JOB first. You can start with the manuals and workshops found. Step by Step youre understanding will improve.

I bought version 2 and did the upgade to 3.

3 is now much better then 2, and it keeps extendings it's possibilities.

If you don't want to spend any money, you'll have to use LOW-level tools, and need to have a comprehensive understanding of DVD-structure and so forth.

I did prefer DVDREMAKE-{RO and it turned out to be very usefull for me.

But first send me youre details on the lenght of the MOVIE and the AUDIOTRACKS you want to keep.

On www.tecoltd.com you can find bitrate viewer. You can use it for free to examine the bitrates of youre source. You can see imeediately in a graphic way if youre source is CBR or True VBR.

It's also handy to examine the output files of DVD-RB-(PRO) with.

Then you can see the how the birtates behave in VOB files.

Bitrate viewer can load only one VOB at a time, so be sure always to start with VOB_1 and not VOB_0 !!!

In the filesystem you can see the VOB's as 1GB files. These VOB's are interesting to view with BITRATE VIEWER.

I'm waiting for your details about the DVD.....

[SAPSTAR]

.....
Maybe youre source has a high CBR encoded Mpeg stream, wich can explain drops in high/low/avreage bitrates. CBR is taking a lot of space and full VBR I always prefer.
....
If the source was a CBR, it would be easier to reencode !!! Because in CBR to obtain the same quality than VBR, you need an higher bitrate...

[apfraats]

I thought I was already saying that in the thread..........

So the comments adds nothing new.....

Have had a lot of DVD's way too big for PC-DVD which had CBR.

If you reencode them you'll best use FULL VBR so VBR_BIAS set to 0.

In most cases quality was not degraded at all, while needed space was down drastically.

[SAPSTAR]

I thought I was already saying that in the thread..........

So the comments adds nothing new.....

Have had a lot of DVD's way too big for PC-DVD which had CBR.

If you reencode them you'll best use FULL VBR so VBR_BIAS set to 0.

In most cases quality was not degraded at all, while needed space was down drastically.
Because you know so well everything....I leave you answer any question you wish in this thread...:) Thank you so much for your courtesy ! :):)

[apfraats]

Oh, well I wish youre were right but you aren't.

I think I can spend 3 years at least learning about all concerning DVD and related programms ;) ;)


In fact it's the most complicating and head-ache causing thing, the invented DVD :sly:

Sometimes I wish we just had our old vinyl records to just play music, al least that I understand a bit.... :D

And now I'v just ordered 300 fuji DVD's to continue the story, but they are of very bad quality and are made by RITEK instead of TAYO UDEN....

I'm now bussy with this thing (have send reports already to FUjI, now they want samples, and I just want some damned DVD's to burn....)

So the story keeps going on...

[glassvial]

I'm curious,do you have a tool to look at the bitrate of the original ?

Like bitrate-viewer ?
No, I don't but I'll try bitrate viewer. The bitrate line appears to be fairly level, goes up and down only slightly.
So defenitely try a MOVIE ONLY backup.
Not an option with this material.
Throw a DTS track away if you have it and you have also 5.1.
Also not an option.
Give me some details. I almost never have a disc that's that difficult to compress.
This particular material is/are wrestling discs, where there is ~1hr of interviews and stories and what not, then the "extras" are wrestling matches. All FF material, not WS.
You can use low-level tools such as PGCedit which requires a lot of understanding of the bits and bytes, but you can also consider to get DVD-REMAKE-PRO which is a high level DVD manipulation tool. And the site that sells DVD-REMAKE-PRO has a lot of examples doing things like splitting DVD's and even Merging DVD's.
I've never had any success with DVD Remake, period. I won't use it, and I sure as hell would never purchase it.

This backup wasn't as bad as some others, the menu was almost 300megs, thanks for the tip about menushrink that got them down to ~12 megs. Bitrate ended up being in the 3100's for the first disc. I set my CCE options at 0/64/5 pass. I selected "Low bitrate" for all 4 matrices. The encode seemed to go a lot faster than before, not sure if it's because of the matrices or the 0/64 setting.

Hope that helps.

[Insane2986]

Newbie question: is VBR Bias=0, Quality prec=64 a good catch-all setup for DVDs? Would it be better to set quality prec to 16?

[Curmudgeon76]

picking a Matrix like Low_High(1800-2500) or Angel BestLow (1900-2500) in DVD-RB will help with the picture quality. There are a lot of matrices that will work well for that bitrate so you can pick which one you want... most in DVD-RB are labeled with the bitrate they work well with.

I checked the quantization matrices in RB-PRO (1.04) and the only settings I have are:

Encoder Default
Low Bitrate
MPEG Standard
QuEnc Lower Bitrate (QLB)
Smooth (CG)
Very Low Bitrate

Additionaly, none of these actually have the bitrate ranges specified next to them. I'm just wondering where to find these settings you were mentioning. Currently I'm going to the "Options" tab, then to "Advanced (Expert) Options" then to "Quantization Matrices". Is there something I'm missing? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Justin

[Rippraff]

The matrices mentioned above are part of Rockas' great Rebuilder's Matrix Editor, which you can find here. (http://dvd-rb.dvd2go.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=24) :)

Cu Rippraff

[manono]

And if you want to add more matrices into DVD-RB, then go to the Matrix folder, note the extension, open one of them up in Notepad and note the format, create a new one (called for example, Curmudgeon76.mtx), and add the matrix of your choice inside. The next time you open DVD-RB, there will be the Curmudgeon76 matrix ready to use. Or you can accomplish the same thing when using the RME.