Bride & Prejudice

[magic144]

I don't know what it is about this disc but it has caused nothing but grief.

Using DVD-RB 1.04RC1 (Pro) in Movie-Only mode,
used both CCE and HC and always got stuttering playback on my Sony 715P player (also Toshiba SD3750 and Apex AD900) - usually happened from about half-way thru to the end of the movie. Very noticeable e.g. start of chapters 14/15 - planes taking off and landing.

Only by using DVD2One (and NOT using DVD-RB) was I able to produce a stutter-free playback disc. Since it's only about 90% compression, this is not a big issue for this film, but I'm worried about future releases.

I guess that unless jdobbs has one of these players and the R1 disc, we may never know just what it is that's causing this problem - it is a nuisance to say the least.

I saw a similar problem a few weeks ago with the Hostage disc (R1), but was able to re-author initially with TMPGEnc DVD Author as a first stage, which somehow worked with RB. This did not prove to be the case this time round.

Again, however, I notice this disc (like Hostage) has no/no/no/no listed for the SP/ILVU/DISC/SA values in IFOEdit at its layer break point - this is not always the case for other discs I have seen (does this mean anything significant?)

Also, if re-authoring initially with TMPGEnc DVD Author, the cell times become slightly different from their original values...

Any thoughts or theories would be greatly welcomed. I've made lots of lovely coasters with this film :-)

m

by the way, PC playback was absolutely fine

[magic144]

oh yeah,

if there's any info about my setup, s/w config or data files I can post that might help in debugging, please let me know and I'll gladly put it on this msg board

fyi I'm using DVD-RB 1.04RC1 (Pro)
CCE SP Trial 2.70.02.01
HC 0.15 beta
DGDecode.dll (comes with DVD-RB zip file release - v1.1.0)

here is my rebuilder.ini file:

[Options]
SkinVersion=8
HC_Quality=1
HalfD1=00
Convert_16_9=00
DisableInterlace=00
EncoderMinimized=1
Completed=23
MovieOnly=1
LogFile=1
RemoveDTS=1
DECOMBFlag=0
AVSFilter01=
Skin=Rebuilder Default
DVD_Label=BRIDE_AND_PREJUDICE
DVD_Name=BRIDE_AND_PREJUDICE.ISO
QuEncHQ=0
QuEncodeType=0
AdditionalOutput=0
CCE=3
Mode=1
[Paths]
MPEG2DEC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\DGDecode.dll
Source=D:\TEMP\BRIDE_AND_PREJUDICE\VIDEO_TS\
Working=D:\1\
Output=C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS\USER\DESKTOP\TEMP\
HC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\APPS\HC\HCbatch_015.exe
CCENEW=C:\Program Files\Custom Technology\CCE SP\cctspt.exe
[Audio]
Selected=101
[Subpictures]
Selected=100
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=25
Quality_prec=16
eclPasses=3

[SpazzHH]

That's strange. I did the R1 disc with RC3 and it plays just fine on my stand-alone.

[magic144]

what is your standalone?

I do have a Panasonic DVD Recorder that seemed to cope with the disc, but the others didn't - this is the most incompatible disc I've created with RB so far!

there must be a fundamental incompatibility between the disc and either the hardware of all these players, or the firmware - it plays just fine on the PC

and I thought digital meant rock solid :-)

m

[jdobbs]

@magic144

Are you using RC4.1? If not, make sure you upgrade to that version. What ripping software are you using?

[magic144]

sorry, yeah, using 1.00 RC4.1

final note - I found that the version I thought was OK
(produced via TMPGEnc DVD Author + DVD2One) was actually freezing during playback on the Sony at what was the original no/no/no/no (SP/ILVU/DISC/SA) layer break point - Cell 16, between Chapters 15 and 16

TMPGEnc DVD Author was the prog that seemed to change the cell times (and somehow seemed to work with DVD-RB for 'Hostage')

I reran the build using ONLY DVD2One and all was well

[jdobbs]

Did you keep DTS audio?

[magic144]

nope

[Audio]
Selected=101

refers to the main DD5.1 plus the 2.0 Director's commentary (stream IDs 0x80, 0x82) - omitting the French soundtrack (0x81)
(but I've tried it with and without the additional commentary with the same result) - the transcoding I eventually got to work includes the additional commentary

[SpazzHH]

what is your standalone?

I do have a Panasonic DVD Recorder that seemed to cope with the disc, but the others didn't - this is the most incompatible disc I've created with RB so far!

there must be a fundamental incompatibility between the disc and either the hardware of all these players, or the firmware - it plays just fine on the PC

and I thought digital meant rock solid :-)

m
Philips DVP642

[magic144]

Just some followups:

1) the output of 1.00RC4.1 did indeedplayback fine "as is" on a Philips DVP-642 player

2) I've just been reading through this thread
[Link] (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=706430#post706430)
about stuttering on K19 - RaistlinMajere had a comment which I took up and tried - I took the extra step of passing the 1.00RC4.1 (movie-only) output through a demux (VobEdit 0.6) and remux (MuxMan 0.14g) cycle (keeping the video and both audio tracks)
I used ChapterXtractor_v0.962 to auto-generate the chapter cell positions for MuxMan (at an FPS rate of 30000, to exactly correspond with the original chapter points)
The output of this extra stage plays perfectly on the Sony - no stuttering whatsoever

jdobbs - if there's any info you want me to include for your analysis as a result of this process, please let me know

m

[Trahald]

as jdobbs discovered in the k19 thread poor authoring on the source (original dvd) can cause issues. since the audio and its timing is kept as is, a rebuild with correct video timing will conflict with poorly timed audio. muxman does a complete reauthor so an issues with audio would disappear. keep following the k19 thread you linked to see what comes of it (it also shows how jdobbs discovered the issue if you want to check your source and are handy with vobedit)

[magic144]

Right

had a look at both the original and post-DVD-RB VOBs for the example Bride & Prejudice problem disc, using VobEdit 0.6

the original has video packs which ALWAYS seem to have PTS>DTS>SCR which seems to make sense (it's never expected to decode or present some picture data BEFORE the current SCR) - also, the AC3 packs all seem to have PTS>SCR

i.e. there DOESN'T appear to be a timecode or conformance issue with the source material (as was mooted as the case for this K-19 problem disc)

however, looking at the VOB output files from DVD-RB, there seems to be a slow but steady slide from the first cell's video packs, so that by about half-way thru the film (about cell 8 or so from 20), it seems that it is always true that PTS>DTS as expected, but eventually these both become < SCR (which, if I've read these threads correctly, indicates some kind of MPEG-2 conformance problem, as the packs are being directed to be rendered/presented and decoded BEFORE the current clock reference)

in the post-MuxMan processed VOBs, the PTS>DTS>SCR relationship seems to have again been restored throughout the entirity of the film's packs

does this not indicate a muxing problem within DVD-RB? - I don't know!

jdobbs, can I offer you any more data or info?? or can you provide more clues or rationale? hopefully, this problem can be rooted out :-)

[jdobbs]

Is this the NTSC version? I'd be interested in seeing that...

[Edit] Actually I see it is R1 from the first post. I'll pick it up today and give it a run. I've done "Hostage", R1, though -- and saw no problems with it (well, other than the fact that the movie was kinda' disjointed -- but I haven't added a "reorganize scenes for better movie flow and greater character development" feature to DVD-RB yet).

Also -- what version of DVD-RB are you using? Make sure you run them through the latest (which right now is v1.00RC5.1).

Also -- are you doing any preprocessing? (I noticed you mentioned running it through TMPGENC author...) -- my main concern is that most other packages don't handle hybrid sources well (or at all) and that could definitely cause a timing drift. Not sure if this is the case with this DVD yet, though.

[magic144]

hi again

yup, R1 disc of B&P

fyi, I did no pre-processing on this source for this latest test - I know how much you want to separate the effects of other processes from your analysis and so I didn't want to taint this result!

like I said, I tried an *earlier* (entirely separate) test with B&P using TMPGEnc Author only because for some reason that worked with Hostage - and you're right, it didn't make it a better plot/story either ;-)

but getting back to the RB-only test result, like I also said, it does display fine on some players (the Philips DVP-642 is an example, also looks fine on my PC's software player, PowerDVD 6.0.0.1102) - I guess these use a rendering technique that isn't critically dependent on these timing discrepencies for whatever reason

fyi, I had a look at the mash-up that I had created for Hostage finally (after TMPGEnc Author, RB, etc) and though it does display OK on my Sony 715P DVD player OK, there is still something of a time slip - PTS is always > DTS, and PTS is always > SCR, but towards the middle/end of the film, DTS does still fall behind and become < SCR, which doesn't seem to have the same disastrous consequences as with when PTS < SCR (as here in RB-only Bride and Prej)

I'll try RB5.1 and get back to you - I haven't had a chance yet as I've only just got back from vacation and I only got 5.1 the day I left!!

let me know if you find out anything before I do - cheers for the advice and continued efforts...

m

[jdobbs]

Ok, thanks. Interesting.... the DTS/PTS are generated by the encoder -- but I do make adjustments when it needs to match the original. I'll see what I can find.

[magic144]

ok, churning thru orig with RB RC5.1 now... will update

fyi, Bride & Prej disc is Canadian R1 (just in case there's a different master in other R1 territories - err, which would be the US)

It's released by Alliance Atlantis this side of the border

[magic144]

well, the same results with 5.1

as you can see from the attached VobEdit screengrab,

this is the first video pack I found in the final VOB of the set, and as you can see here, PTS and DTS are < SCR

let me know if I can provide more info

m

[jdobbs]

I have it running now. If I can repeat it I can find what is causing it.

[magic144]

hi, any updates? did you manage to reproduce the scenario?

[jdobbs]

I'm still working on it.

[Sir Didymus]

hi, any updates? did you manage to reproduce the scenario?

Hey, magic144, could you do me a favour, allowing in the meanwhile Jdobbs to spend his precious time for some low priority tasks like as breathing, and taking some coffe (this last is helpful for not sleeping too much, in order to gain some useful time for the DVD-RB development...)...

Lol... I mean, I wrote a little tool to facilitate the detection of the timing issues like the ones discussed in this (and in another) thread. It checks that in the audio packet (pts >= scr), and in the video packets having both dts and pts timings that (pts >= dts >= scr)...

If you have titles where this situation happen, it may be helpful for double checking that the source is well authored and totally error free (respect to the discussed timing issue)...

It is a simple dos application (just open a dos window and launch: >ChkTim filename.vob).

This is the place where to download ChkTim:

... removed; ask via PM ...

All the best
SD

@Jdobbs: hey boss, sorry for the little joke about your time, it is for reducing a little bit the pressure and the pushing...

Edit: removed the (little useful) link to the file. Ask it via PM...

[magic144]

will try it out when I'm home tonight Sir D

and I'll publish the results here too

it's interesting to see your source code too - to see how VOB packets are decoded :-)

m

[Sir Didymus]

Yea, you'll see... much better than spending hours with VobEdit...

By the way, the basic vob scanning code it taken from a nice tool written by Jsoto...

Cheers,
SD

[magic144]

have 2 wait until tomorrow

I think your download limit has been exceeded on this file,
unless you (or someone) can PM it to me 2nite to try

I downloaded it earlier at work, but I can't access it from home 2nite!

jdobbs, did you get any further with the run you had going?

[jdobbs]

Yes, I can repeat it. Starting at sector 417412 on VTS_01_2.VOB and it continuing into VTS_01_3.VOB, the DTS is falling behind the SCR -- and occasionally so is the PTS (which might cause stutter). It starts with the first video sector of VOBID 1, CELLID 13 (segment 12 of VTS_01).

I tried it on a couple of other discs -- and it doesn't happen, so it seems to be something peculiar about "Bride and Prejudice". I'll see what I can find.

Good analysis, thanks.


[Added] Ok -- I've run tests against a large group of discs and this is the only one where this happens (just wanted to put my mind at rest). So I will start tracing the REBUILD to see what's going wrong...

[magic144]

good news (well, bad, but good!)
glad I'm not the only one seeing things :-)

fy, for me PTS looks to start trailing SCR near the end of CELL 8, but maybe this is due to RB config differences, number of passes, CCE version, other...

I hope you can find the source of the discrepency quite easily and that it's fixable without too much pain!

Thanks again for all your continued efforts
I'll try and run Sir Didymus' prog this evening and let you know the results so you'll see where the errors start in my VOB file set

m

[Sir Didymus]

have 2 wait until tomorrow
I think your download limit has been exceeded on this file,
unless you (or someone) can PM it to me 2nite to try...


Oops!!!
Big sorry... I did not even be aware there was a dld limit...
Just going to send to you the file via the e-mail of your profile...

Cheers,
SD

[magic144]

Just a follow-up for everyone...

As you'll see from the attached zip's txt output files, running Sir Didymus' code shows that the timer drift becomes in error from VTS_01_2.VOB onwards
(in my DVD-RB output files for movie-only Bride & Prejudice)

m

[magic144]

sorry to say this,
but I'm still seeing all these SCR/DTS/PTS errors in Bride & Prejudice even with RC6!

the slip still seems to happen in VTS_01_2.VOB and carries on from there

[jdobbs]

I'm afraid you've done something wrong. I've done that movie and I've run a check against it. There are no SCR/PTS/DTS errors. I think you must be running RC5.1 by mistake.

[Plutox]

I think you must be running RC5.1 by mistake.
I've just re-done the infamous K19 (R2) with RC6 - and I have to say that while there is some subjective improvement (on my Sony player) with the problematic scene compared to RC5.1, the problem is certainly not solved, assuming that you are aiming for a solution to a problem that is not of your making.

As ever, I will happily do any tests you need to track this one down.

[magic144]

September 16th, 2005
Version 1.00 RC6

just re-ran the Rebuild phase again, same result
(am I right in assuming that's the bit that's been modified?)

wot could the problem be now then? - these errors are pervasive

[magic144]

just to clarify,
I ran the whole build from start to finish with RC6 (and no other programs)
I just re-ran the rebuild phase at the end to double-check (which destroyed and recreated the files in the VIDEO_TS dir)

[jdobbs]

I've just re-done the infamous K19 (R2) with RC6 - and I have to say that while there is some subjective improvement (on my Sony player) with the problematic scene compared to RC5.1, the problem is certainly not solved, assuming that you are aiming for a solution to a problem that is not of your making.

As ever, I will happily do any tests you need to track this one down.As I said before. The problem with K-19 is the original. I only tried to catch the error and flag it. I also added code to ensure the output was DVD compliant (SCR<DTS<PTS) -- but I can't fix a broken source. There really is nothing to track down --> I already know what the problem is. The source is bad.

Sorry.

[jdobbs]

just to clarify,
I ran the whole build from start to finish with RC6 (and no other programs)
I just re-ran the rebuild phase at the end to double-check (which destroyed and recreated the files in the VIDEO_TS dir)I don't know what to say. I've run the exact same movie (NTSC, R1) through RC6 and have scanned it from end-to-end and there are no instances of timing problems. I also watched the entire movie from the backup DVD without issues.

I kinda' liked it by the way.

I will go back and run it through again.... but I've done it at least 10 times in the last week.

[magic144]

I am just re-running the RC6 compression on my laptop to see if there is anything unique about my desktop PC which might be introducing the problem

from your earlier comment, you say you've added code to always ensure SCR<DTS<PTS, and I presume all of this code runs during the 3rd (Rebuild) phase and is wholly inside of DVD-RB and has nothing to do with external factors like CCE, number of passes (I'm using VBR_Passes=3), AVISynth, DGDecode, etc... is that correct???

if so, how can this be happening??!!
can I give you any more specific info? should I be able to see anything in the intermediate .m2v files?

I'll let you know how the laptop run goes
let me know if there's anything more I can do/look at/provide :-)

[magic144]

don't spose the fact I'm keeping audio tracks and a subtitle track should have any bearing on the result?

[magic144]

err... 2 audio tracks, that is - main English DD + director's commentary
and English subs

[jdobbs]

The "SCR<DTS<PTS" response I gave was regarding the audio tracks that are out-of-whack in K-19. The video SCR/DTS/PTS is all inserted by DVD-RB based upon required timing and the encoder.

As I said, I'll look at it again. I'm never so proud as to say some last minute change couldn't have mucked something up.... if it did, I'll really be pissed at myself.

[jdobbs]

Ok, I just rebuilt "Bride and Prejudice" again... no timing issues for me. I kept the two English tracks and all the Subtitles. I'll try it again with only the English subtitles... but I really don't think that will change anything.

[magic144]

wow you must have a fast PC!

my laptop is still chugging

so out of interest, what CCE (or other encoder) are you using? - will that have a bearing on things? (or should it be all down to RB)

fyi, I also used File Mode in Decrypter originally - but like I said, the original VOB files on the PC all seem compliant

[jdobbs]

Oh, there was definitely a problem in RC5.1 -- and my SCR/DTS/PTS scanner picked it up when you reported it. I went back and found the cause. It was a unique situation -- a "when planets align" kinda' thing-- but definitely a problem in DVD-RB. I fixed that, scanned again, and it was gone.

I've now REBUILT it again with only the two English tracks (5.1 and Director's comments) and the English subtitle. I scanned the result and there are no timing discrepancies.

I ripped it in ISO mode and mounted it. I did a 2 pass encode with CCE SP v2.70. But I don't think those factors really have anything to do with it. The problem was in the REBUILD.

By the way -- a REBUILD only should only take about 15-20 minutes.

[jptheripper]

well, on a laptop, presumably reading and writing to the same 4200 rpm drive, it may be siginificantly longer

[magic144]

jdobbs - thanks for your continued efforts and interest in my problem!

well, just did the whole 3-phases from start to finish on my laptop
and the same problems occur

question for you - have you done the whole process with RC6 (prepare, encode, rebuild), or just the REBUILD phase using some RC5.1 (or older) prepared/encoded files as a starting point??
(btw, REBUILD alone only takes 18 minutes or so, yes)
if you've not done start-finish with RC6, can you give that a try???

given that this is happening on 2 separate PCs, I'm more convinced it's not an environmental problem with just my desktop

from VTS_01_2.VOB onwards, SCR ends up > DTS
and from VTS_01_3.VOB onwards, SCR ends up > PTS

so what can I tell you/find out next?

fyi CCE is 2.70.2.1 (CCE SP Trial mode)
AVISynth is 2.5.5.0
DGDecode.dll is as distributed by you - January 21st, 2005 - 262222bytes
(v1.1.0 the documentation says)

[Plutox]

I only tried to catch the error and flag it. I also added code to ensure the output was DVD compliant (SCR<DTS<PTS)
No, that's fair enough. But all I don't understand is, having detected the anomaly (which is indeed duly shown in the log SCR TIMING ERRORS found in source -- Corrections were approximated), why is it not possible to simply abandon the bad timing reference and replace it with an approximation derived from the SCR until the source restores to normality? Such a move would presumably result in poor lip sync but at least it would play without stutter until the source was again back on track.

[jdobbs]

That's exactly what it does. But unfortunately, based upon your results that doesn't seem to be enough.

[magic144]

hey jdobbs,

can you also confirm you were using Movie-Only copy mode?
and that you're outputting files (and not an ISO image)
and not using One Click mode
(trying to isolate any differences here)

perhaps you can answer a couple of other points...
the SCR/DTS/PTS values - are they inherent in the m2v video intermediates, or are they added by RB during the Rebuild phase (are they derived from the original source's VOB files, or something else? - regenerated from scratch? and are they purely interpreted by RB, or are other progs involved)

would installed codecs have any effect on the process? e.g. ffdshow

cheers

m

[jdobbs]

The DTS/PTS values exist in the M2V file, but are changed by DVD-RB. No, I wasn't doing movie-only mode. I'll do that next.

[magic144]

may I ask what mode you did use

Full Backup, Movie & Menus Only, or Movies, Menus and Slideshow Extras?

cheers

m

[magic144]

ok, just did a "Full Backup (Menus, Movie, Extras)" of B&P on my laptop (Steal Space from Extras set to default 00%) with RC6 and there are NO timer discrepencies in the movie VOB files, so there's clearly something happening in Movie-Only mode to introduce the errors...

any luck your end Mr Dobbs?

[jdobbs]

Yes. I was able to repeat it in Movie-Only mode. I'll go back and look at it again... this is an exceptionally odd original authoring. No excuse, though, DVD-RB should have done it correctly.

[Plutox]

Yes. I was able to repeat it in Movie-Only mode. I'll go back and look at it again...Fascinating, Captain. I await the outcome of your investigation with interest.

[Sir Didymus]

Just confirming it should be an extremely rare condition. Maybe unique to that title: Checked on 34 backups (on two removable hard disks, all titles R2, pal, with different DVD-RB releases up to RC5) without finding one single timing issue of the described type...

@magic144: excellent work!!!

[magic144]

it's always good to know you're not the only one "seeing things" :-)

indeed, the fact that this only shows up in Movie-Mode with only some playback equipment means it's hard to track down, since you always get the majority of contributors saying "it works perfectly fine for me!"

good luck resolving this one jdobbs! I keenly await 1.00 Final!

[jdobbs]

@magic144

Ok... I just fixed this. It will be out in the next version. I finally traced it down -- and as it turns out the fix I had added in v1.00RC6.0 was only covering the symptoms up to a point. This time I found what was the root cause and corrected it.

[magic144]

awesome, awesome
you da man!, as some would say

any blinding insight on what quirky characteristics caused this to happen?

so one more bug squashed into the ground

1.0 Final must be close...

cheers for all your efforts,

m

[Plutox]

This time I found what was the root cause and corrected it.Do you think it will also crack the K-19 problem?

[jdobbs]

They aren't related. As I said before, the K-19 (PAL version) problem is a fault in the source. I went back and identified illegal timing in the audio on the original cell. This fix addresses an issue with DVD-RB that happens under very specific circumstances (exhibited in Bride and Prejudice).

[magic144]

jdobbs,

can I use 0.95 (Free) to rebuild my already-encoded 1RC6.0 outputs to test the SCR-drift fixes to the rebuild fn,
or is 1.0 Pro Final just around the corner and I should wait?

(would trying to run 0.95 Free in movie-only mode work with the 1RC6.0 intermediate files, or destroy/fatally-overwrite something in them?)

m

[jptheripper]

im pretty sure the fixes in 0.95 free are already in 1rc6.0

[magic144]

jdobbs - Huge congrats on the big release 1.01 Final

just so you know, B&P went through flawlessly in Movie-Only mode
as did another film for which I'd previously seen timer issues (Mindhunters)

this product is awesome and I only hope it gets bigger and even better
I will always try and help to track down any issues in future too

cheers mate,

m