Uncompressed HD Capture: 720p Codec Suggestions?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Hi everyone,

Has any one released an uncompressed HD capture card yet? I'm looking for something that will take a 720p input from either DVI or component.

The last time I looked the amount of bandwidth required for this was just wayyyyyy too much for the lowly PCI slot, but in theory PCI-Express should be able to take the strain.

Failing that, are there any converters out there that will take DVI/component input and output HD-SDI or HD-1394?

[LocalH]

The only things I know of that can capture baseband component at HD rates are professional equipment, and the price can be astronomical. But yeah, if you look around, I'm pretty sure you can find what you're looking for, if you're willing to pay for it. I don't have any recommendations for sources, however, because that type of equipnent is way too expensive for me.

[Mug Funky]

it's not the capture cards that cost a fortune... it's the playback equipment.

think that just a SD digibeta deck costs around USD $35,000 2nd hand on eBay, and much, much more new. HD equipment is actually not much more expensive, but still way out of my league. then you've got to find HD sources - blank digibeta tapes are more expensive than hard disks, hold less and have no effective error correction (they crap out ALL the time. especially the big ones). HD stuff could only be more problematic, but probably with better error correction.

the capture cards don't cost much at all when you consider the above. just ~$2000 - see below:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/

[LocalH]

If I were going to deal with HD content at a professional level, I'd probably consider DVCPROHD - I have experience with plain 25Mbps DVCPRO and it seems to be quite a robust format (the station I used to work for used it as a general on-air tape format, so it got heavily used, and dropout was minimal unless you were using a tape that was simply worn completely out). And I'm almost certain that DVCPROHD gear is going to cost a bit less than something like HDCAM SR, for which Sony doesn't even give a price quote on their website (and plus, you're going to have to find a converter to make analog component into SDI, which is what most high-end digital equipment uses).

[Mug Funky]

analog -> SDI converters are quite cheap. the one at work sucks ball at composite input though, but if you're feeding composite to anything, it might as well be a DV deck - you can edit DV a LOT easier than uncompressed 4:2:2 (even though there's always the stupid bff/tff problem with DV to watch out for).

also, a point on gear like this - ebay will give you a more realistic quote than sony will. sony have the market cornered and they know it. on ebay you can often get second hand stuff with not too many running hours. dunno if anyone's selling their HD gear just yet though.

[SeeMoreDigital]

analog -> SDI converters are quite cheap. the one at work sucks ball at composite input though, but if you're feeding composite to anything, it might as well be a DV deck - you can edit DV a LOT easier than uncompressed 4:2:2 (even though there's always the stupid bff/tff problem with DV to watch out for).Not so long ago I experimented with a "standard-definition" input capable SweetSpot (PCI) card (http://www.pluggedin.tv/item--SweetSpot-Video-Processor--PITVSS001) and optional SDI (twin) board (http://www.pluggedin.tv/item--SweetSpot-Dual-SDI-Input-Upgrade--PMS-SWEETSPOT-2X-SDI-INPUT).

The SweetSpot card has the advantage of being able to handle RGB/component video as well as s-video and composite. The two products together run to around £300.00... which is not too bad I suppose!

That said, I think there must be a market for a "little black box" that offers conversion of say, SDI to DVI/HDMI and/or FireWire and USB2 ;)


Cheers

[AlexeyS]

And are there any "mobile" HDDs capture devices for component output or HD-SDI output?

[EC-EXCURSION]

Here are some more HD capture solutions I found on the AVS forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=526531&page=1&pp=30)

AccuStream 170 (http://www.foresightimaging.com/PRODUCTS/hdp/accustream170.htm) $2995. Not including the cost of the input cables or the software.
http://www.foresightimaging.com/PRODUCTS/hdp/accustream170.jpg

and another:

Kona HD capture card (http://www.aja.com/products_kona.html) Not sure about the price...
http://www.aja.com/images/k2cable.jpg

[easy2Bcheesy]

I am lucky enough to be testing an AccuStream 170 at the moment. What a spectacular piece of technology it is. Simply plug in a DVI source and it locks on automatically. Very impressive and certainly a step up from the days of the Matrox cards that required an oscilloscope to set up timing calibrations. You can even use trusty old Virtual Dub to capture!

Here's the thing though - I simply cannot capture at 60fps.

I had always assumed that the bottleneck would be getting an HD picture through the PCI bus. Credit to the AccuStream, it seems to be doing the business in that regard.

The problem is capturing at 720p at 60fps with no dropped frames. My 7,200rpm SATA drives are not coping particularly well. I think I need to find a codec that does not sacrifice quality (why bother going HD if it does?) but also gets the filesize low enough so the drives are not over-taxed.

Right, first of all, I accept that bog standard SATA drives might not be up to the task. Would dual Raptors in a RAID configuration be fast enough?

Secondly what sort of codec can compress 1280x720 on the fly with a decent level of compression? My strategy here is to get the fps captured as high as possible before splashing out on Raptors or, if need be, SCSI drives.

To give you some idea of what I'm up against here, my 3.4GHz P4 machine can manage 25fps capture using the ConnectHD codec.

Answers much appreciated!

[easy2Bcheesy]

OK, I'm making progress here and can now capture at around 50fps using huffyuv or the CineformHD codecs. Is there a faster codec out there that can handle a Y Cr Cb 4:2:2 profile?

The problem is that the grabbing card and the SATA drives are using the same bus, so the key is to streamline as much as possible.

[dvgeek]

analog -> SDI converters are quite cheap. the one at work sucks ball at composite input though, but if you're feeding composite to anything, it might as well be a DV deck - you can edit DV a LOT easier than uncompressed 4:2:2 (even though there's always the stupid bff/tff problem with DV to watch out for).

also, a point on gear like this - ebay will give you a more realistic quote than sony will. sony have the market cornered and they know it. on ebay you can often get second hand stuff with not too many running hours. dunno if anyone's selling their HD gear just yet though.

Hi - Would really like to know which make of analog -> SDI convertor, as the only one I could find was the AJA HD10A which is selling for about $1,500.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I could still really use some help on a suitable codec. Basically I need something that is as fast as Huffyuv, but offers better compression, and is useable as a capture codec in Virtual Dub.

Basically I now have 60fps capture on this board, but when the action on-screen is very complex and Huffyuv can't compress it so well, I get dropped frames :|

Surely there's a codec expert who can suggest a better alternative to Huffyuv? After all, it's been available for years now!

Codecs tried: Alparysoft lossless (similar performance to Huffyuv but not *quite* as fast), VBLC (way too slow), ffvfw (not explored all the codecs but seeming too slow on the ones I have tried), Arithyuv (way too slow).

[obvious]

I'm fairly new to all this but I found a quote saying The MJPEG codec (at quality level 19 or lower) is faster than Huffyuv and produces smaller files. Please forgive me if this CODEC is clearly not suitable in some way.

BTW, what motherboard are you using or would you recommend to use with the Accustream 170? I've heard that some PCI-X boards will only run cards like this at 33Mhz.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I've tried the PIC MJPEG codec and its results were similar to Huffyuv. File sizes were smaller, but I still lost frames. I shall give it another go.

I'm using the board at 32-bit PCI level so I cannot comment on which motherboards to use. This might well be why I am having trouble maintaining frame rates. The problem is that unless you want to go with the HD-SDI route, AccuStream is the only HD solution available. Just a shame it's not a PCIe board...

I did discuss PCI-X with Foresight Imaging and the general experience was that it will run in a PCI-X slot, but not at 133MHz (obviously). It should throttle down to 66MHz though rather than 33MHz according to them.

[vsv]

easy2Bcheesy
IMHO, ProspectHD 4:2:2 10bit codec is only choice for you.
For more information
http://cineform.com/products/ProspectHDBundles.htm

[obvious]

Maybe the Morgan (http://www.morgan-multimedia.com/) MJPEG could be worth a try as well?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Morgan appears to be fast (perhaps even fast enough) and has excellent compression but even at the highest quality level it is leaving horrible artefacts.

Thanks for your assistance vsv - I've checked now and Cineform is now up to version 2.1 and is available for download as a 30-day trial as part of the Premiere Pro AspectHD package. Still not fast enough I'm afraid - I get about 45fps from that.

[scharfis_brain]

and what about PicVideo MJPEG?

its Q20 Level seems near-lossles.

what do you call "horrible artifacts" ?

[easy2Bcheesy]

PicVideo MJPEG is worth a second look but it seems to have uninstalled itself (!) so I'll re-install the trial again and give it a more thorough going over.

At Q20 it loses frames badly, at Q19 it looks pretty decent and seems on a par with huffyuv speed-wise. Again, it only loses frames when things are really busy, just like huffyuv. But obviously it's not lossless.

With regards Morgan, it seems to leaving 'ghosting' artefacts - almost like shadows around the main details.

I'm wondering whether it's the fact that I'm running the card at 33MHz that's the problem (it runs at 66MHz natively but 64-bit PCI bus PCs are hard to come by). I've already had to run the card in 4:2:2 to get anywhere near 60fps and turn off the preview window too. However, if it is a card bandwidth problem I'm curious as to why huffyuv performs so well...

[vsv]

Morgan appears to be fast (perhaps even fast enough) and has excellent compression but even at the highest quality level it is leaving horrible artefacts.

Thanks for your assistance vsv - I've checked now and Cineform is now up to version 2.1 and is available for download as a 30-day trial as part of the Premiere Pro AspectHD package. Still not fast enough I'm afraid - I get about 45fps from that.

AspectHD and ConnectHD is 8bit 4:2:2
but ProspectHD is only 10bit! and optimised for real time capture with XenaHD card from AJA.
You can ask David Newman (cineform developer) in details
in this forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=76

[easy2Bcheesy]

I've been in contact with the Cineform people and they are not optimistic about 60fps encoding with ProspectHD - they recommend the XenaHD hardware only along with a dual Opteron based system using RAID-0.

It does seem like overkill somewhat as I can achieve 50fps with their codec using AccuStream and my 3.4GHz P4 550 chip...

[BITS]

.
.
Good luck.

Not to sound negative or what not, but i don't see you capturing 60fps without a SCSi. i know SCSi has had to enter your mind by now. To me honest with that card it looks like you could afford a fast SCSi raid setup. The Seagate Cheetah ST3146854LC (15krpm u320, 146gig (probably need atleast 3 though :-() is ~1200usd right now :-/. But if you are like me, you can't afford that plus a mobo that accepts PCI-X to run the adapter (which costs even more ~250usd). Even with dual Opterons, i still see SCSi in the mix. That latest panasonic camcorder (~6000usd) comes with something called a "P2" drive...only holds about 8 minutes though :-(...i'm not too sure if it can capture either.

From what i understand, that video takes up about ~500.0gig per hour (or is it 2hrs. in 1080p)?...that's pretty heavy. You just found an expensive hobby friend. Seems you've jumped right from consumer, over prosumer AND professional, to broadcast. So big $$$ you probably need.

BTW: What device are you capturing from? (if you mentioned i missed it) Must be some really spetacular source.

As far as the soft coder, i'm not too sure besides what was mentioned (AspectHD). Sounds like to me, for what you want, it should of came with that board and probably be propietary (on board even?)...guess it didn't come with it though.

BTW: How's the audio you are getting from whatever source? is it uncompressed or something like AC3?

i'm really sorry i can't say what to use, all i'm pretty sure of is that you haven't spent nearly enough money yet :-(. Maybe if you get the space/time you could share a 15sec clip of this unseen-by-many quality picture? i would love to see what you are doing, sounds like really great work you are putting into this to get your captures, definately with pride.
.
.

[easy2Bcheesy]

You don't need SCSI - I've been in contact with the Cineform people and even they are recommending SATA drives in a RAID-0 configuration. The theoretical throughput of 720p/60 shouldn't cause any 7200rpm SATA drive any problems.

As I've already mentioned, I have achieved 60fps with the board and huffyuv codec - it's just that there seems to be an occasional drop in fps while capturing. I'm actually beginning to think this is because the PC in question I am capturing from (video games footage) isn't a pure 720p source - it doesn't display on my Dell 2405FPW while my 720p DVD player and my Xbox in 720p mode do display. Both the DVD player and the Xbox capture at 60fps with no dropped frames at all.

The AccuStream board is designed for medical scanners and military uses so the capture of HD is just one of the things it is capable of, rather than its sole purpose in life.

[BITS]

i thought it was something like 150MBs for raw capture?

but yeh i guess i can see RAiD working for my RAiD 10 array has never dropped a frame other than (similar to your problem actually) the source not being clean/true fps.

How much is that board? You mentioned military and medical usage, which are 2 very demanding fields on hardware. This something like 15k? You did say you were trying it for free (i think). i know in the medical field even the smallest RF modules and some of the building controllers (ie Johnson Controls) which run old umL/DOS style languages like GPL can cost above 10k easily.

BTW i didn't know Huffyuv went that high on lines. i thought it topped out at 576? Well atleast above 576 would be interlaced.

[SeeMoreDigital]

That said, I think there must be a market for a "little black box" that offers conversion of say, SDI to DVI/HDMI and/or FireWire and USB2 ;) And as if by magic, here's an SDI-to-DVI converter device: -

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-SDI.html

..... but that price is a bit of a shock!

[j_olson]

SDI --> DVI/HDMI converter? That sounds like a standard video scaler...?

[SeeMoreDigital]

SDI --> DVI/HDMI converter? That sounds like a standard video scaler...?Can you provide some links please?

[j_olson]

Just about any scaler company...

$3000 or more for the very expensive ones:
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/crystalio.asp
http://www.spatz-tech.de/spatz/q.htm

Then there are cheaper:
http://www.lumagen.com/

...and also Video Processors:
http://www.tvone.co.uk/c2-7000.shtml

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks J,

Wow, some of those devices are expensive. A few years ago I could have understood, maybe even justified their expense.... but in todays digital chip-set world.... those prices are just ridiculous!

God forbid anybody wanting to convert FireWire to USB2 ;)

[vsv]

Anybody able to capture 720p60 with DeckLinkHD card using
Cineform 8 bit 4:2:2 ConnectHD or AspectHD codec?

P.S. HD SDI to Y Pr Pb and Y Pr Pb to HD SDI converters (http://www.computermodules.com/broadcast-systems/hd-sdi.shtml)
http://www.computermodules.com/images/main-portal/modules-box-hd.gif

[*.mp4 guy]

Try Xvid Instead of an mjpeg codec, I beleive it is faster when you turn off *everything*, I would recomend using the mpeg matrix instead of H.263 though. If you want you could even use the Jpeg matrix...