Ghosting on LCD monitor URGENT!

[futurex]

Hello guys,

I just bought a 19" LCD monitor which has a relatively high response time of 21ms

when i try to play almost any high motion scenes the video becomes all blurry and leaves "trails", which i think is called "ghosting". i know for a fact the videos are fine and its definately the monitor. it makes no difference if i use d-sub or dvi connection. also, it seems to happen less on dvd's than other formats eg. hdtv, xvid, dvb mpeg2, wmv (btw, all sources ar pal)

i've tried refresh rates from 60hz to 75. still nothing. i've tried adjusting brightness/contrast, latest drivers for both monitor and video card. this did not happen on my (faster response time) 15" LCD

returning the monitor is out of the question :(

[mpucoder]

By now you should be getting a grasp on what response time means - longer values have higher persistence, causing the blurring - there is nothing you can do.

[Video Dude]

Most reviews suggest buying a LCD with 16ms response or less. But I even heard some people complain about 8ms.

21ms is good for word processing, but not much else.

[futurex]

the thing is, this does not happen with all 3d games i have tested on it (even in dark game environments, i have tested gta: vc, counter-strike 1.6, s.w.a.t. 4, half-life 2, warcraft 3 tft). the games play quite good, and about 90% to 95% of the time, any videos i play are bearable.

and it seems much worse with interlaced content, which makes up most of the video on my pc...

[Angelus]

it also depends on the type of display used (TN / TN+Film, IPS / S-IPS, MVA / PVA). I have a viewsonic monitor with a 25 ms response time yet experience little or no ghosting

here's a good post i found at PCMech:

Check what panel technology is being used. There are TN / TN+Film, IPS / S-IPS, MVA / PVA.

If the panel type is TN or IPS, it will be good. The usual response times won't be much higher than 25ms. . they'd be 30ms, 40ms. . something like this. Only for a very small amount of colors it can be up to 2.5 times as high as the minimum, which would be about 60ms. Since it's only for a few colors, you will also seldom get 60ms out of that panel. Usually you'll get something like around 30ms to 40ms, which are good response times.

Now the MVA/PVA technology is far worse. It is not a good technology for gaming. The maximum response time can be up to 4x as high as the minimum one, and that applies to 1/3 of all possible colors. And that is pretty much.
So, the maximum response time in this case would be 100ms, which is extremely slow. Gaming with 100ms is just no joy. And for about 1/3 of the colors you'll get high response times like 70, 80 or even more ms. A friend of mine has a 19" MVA panel. . . with black on brown he gets 3" trails. I reckon that are the colors where his panel has a response time of 100ms. It's awful.

So, basically: 25ms are fine if the panel is not MVA or PVA.

threads here:
http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=114461

[Video Dude]

Did you try to disable/enable overlay?

[futurex]

thanks for the info and advice guys,

i found that the ghosting improves a little when i use vmr7 or vmr9. better, but still not so great :(

unfortunately, the monitor is MVA... any more suggestions? :(

[Mug Funky]

returning it shouldn't be out of the question. there's a cooling-off period with all purchases in most countries. just how long it is (28 days here) and what it covers depends on the country. but if the store says no returns they are lying - it's the law.

[Slogra]

Bring it back and get one with a low response time and a high contrast ratio. The latter is even more important imho.

I'm sitting here staring at this 25ms 250:1 piece of shit :angry:

[futurex]

i'm in brisbane, australia. bought it at a store "gamedude" (http://www.gamedude.com.au)... i called them the day after i bought it, saying i was willing to spend around $80 more for a 12ms one, and would pay the difference. they said they do not take goods that have "been used", or "opened the box". that was 4 days ago...

mug funky, could you please give more info on this "cooling off period"? i searched but could not find any info on it...

EDIT: ok i found some info on consumer rights, and i don't think i can return it.. :(

still, i was hoping some people here can help me make the best of a bad situation...

[Mug Funky]

i'm sure you can return it. you haven't dropped it on anything, there's no marks on it right?

you've only had it 4 days! at the very minimum you get 7 days to change your mind. if you push things you can get 28 days after purchase. 7 days is guaranteed, and tell the store that it's in the Trade Practices Act, and it doesn't matter squat if it's been taken out of the box and tried out. it is your right to change your mind within a reasonable amount of time.

if you pull the TPA out on a dumb store, they'll usually give up right away - they have no choice.

also, you contacted them after 1 day of purchase! they can't possibly argue with that unless you've physically done something to the monitor. they're just bullshitting you, and you should call their bluff (it's nothing more than a bluff after all, as the TPA overrides any conditions they might impose, if those conditions do not agree with it).

give 'em hell, dude.

[edit]

if they still don't let you return the display, the ACCC might be able to help you:

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/3863/fromItemId/3667

[futurex]

thanks funky, i contacted the ACCC, and still, unfortunately, they 'are not required to give a refund or exchange unless the product is faulty'... :angry:

i usually do a LOT of research on electronic products before i buy them, but seeing as my old monitor was getting on (the colours are sort of pale, and the picture breaks randomly) i needed it quickly...

still, any advice as to how to reduce the ghosting by software means would be very very highly appreciated!

all i know is, i will NEVER shop there again, and persuade as many people not to buy from there :devil: .

other stores that i have bought products from gladly refunded/replaced products...

[MarioGarcia]

can't you return it to the manufacturer.. here some monitors and other material have to be dealt directly with the manufacturer instead of the retail reseller.

[Mug Funky]

thanks funky, i contacted the ACCC, and still, unfortunately, they 'are not required to give a refund or exchange unless the product is faulty'... :angry:

hmmm. it certainly wasn't like that last i heard (i rather stupidly went to a bunch of commercial law lectures that covered the TPA), but i suppose with the Howard government being how it is, the law could have been changed in the last 3 years to be more consumer hostile.

the above statement to the best of my knowledge is true only after a cooling-off period where things can be exchanged with no questions asked. this even counts for DVDs... (so one could easily abuse the system by buying something, ripping it, then returning it. though, i've returned discs to JB before because they were simply crap movies and i didn't like them. they grudgingly accepted the discs). this period is 7 days at the very least, but i'm pretty sure it's a month.

i find it hard to believe that something can't be returned a day after purchase. did you tell the ACCC everything you've told us (like you only bought the thing a couple of days ago)?

[futurex]

yes, i explained it in full... i told them i tried to return it just the next day, and they said there was really nothing i could do, as it wasn't faulty, or no misleading info on the box/website/ad, etc

the manufacturer, i believe is in taiwan. i think its a very long shot they will help, so its probably more trouble than its worth...

[Doobie]

Here's another thing I don't understand:

Why does anyone buy LCD computer monitors? CRTs are a lot cheaper and have a lot better picture quality.

[scharfis_brain]

Simple answer: LCDs are much smaller, than CRTs

Just yesterday, I bought a cheapo 17" TFT, with which I am currently browsing the forums.


But this LCD is for someone else. I'd never use a LCD myself.

For Office usage it is IMO better than a CRT, but not for image and video processing.

[The Geek]

Here's another thing I don't understand:

Why does anyone buy LCD computer monitors? CRTs are a lot cheaper and have a lot better picture quality.

Pretty simple. Because not everyone has the same opinion like you do. I have a TFT simply because TFTs have a far better quality than CRTs. I go for quality, not for price. CRTs are cheaper, but TFTs are better, that's why I and everyone of my friends got TFTs.

As for the ghosting issue:

It is a hardware thing. A spec of the monitor. There is no way you can change that, just as there is no way that you can change the size of a monitor, or the contrast ratio, or the viewing angle, or resurrect a dead pixel.
If you can't live with the ghosting, you need to get another monitor.
MVA is the slowest technology. If you want a gaming monitor, get one with TN or IPS. Actually I'd get a S-IPS monitor, that's IMHO the best compromise between speed and quality, as you get high viewing angles, high contrast, no dithering, and still ghostless motion.

The Geek

[Doobie]

Pretty simple. Because not everyone has the same opinion like you do. I have a TFT simply because TFTs have a far better quality than CRTs. I go for quality, not for price. CRTs are cheaper, but TFTs are better, that's why I and everyone of my friends got TFTs.

Where I hear people say really dumb things, I wonder where they get those ideas. Why don't you entertain us and by attempting to support your absurd claim about TFTs being better quality. Hmmm?

CRTs have higher resolutions, and give great pictures at any resolution. How about TFTs?

CRTs have good color across the screen. How about TFTs?

CRTs work great at all angles, and in bright rooms. How about TFTs?

CRTs don't have dead pixels. How about TFTs?

CRTs don't "ghost"? How about TFTs (I think the guy that started this thread would answer, yes, TFTs ghost and in "my" case, it's annoying as all get up).

You're like my mom. She, being a she, has a defective gene that makes her think the more expensive products must be better. If TFTs were cheaper and "old" technology, you'd "know" that CRTs are better. The only reason to get a TFT is to save mass, and about the only person desperate enough to give up the benefits of a CRT are laptop users.

Now, it's time you re-think what you think you know about everything.

[Hobojobo]

I bought a LCD at an online shop.
It turned out, that the panel had an annoying pixel error.
I sent it back after 6 days.
Here in Germany you can return the hardware within 14 days without stating a reason when purchased online.

One of the advantages of a LCD is the size compared to CRT.
The picture quality of my old 17" CRT is better, no doubt.

[The Geek]

Where I hear people say really dumb things, I wonder where they get those ideas.

So only because I don't have the same opinion as you do, it's dumb ? I think you should watch your attitude !

Why don't you entertain us and by attempting to support your absurd claim about TFTs being better quality.

Coz someone like you wouldn't understand it.

CRTs have higher resolutions, and give great pictures at any resolution. How about TFTs?

Wrong ! CRTs do give equal quality pictures at any resolution. The quality is equal at all resolutions, but not great.
TFTs give the best picture at native res. only, that's right. But that picture is sharper than any CRT can dream of. And that's not a matter of opinion, that's fact.
And I can live with a little blurriness at lower resolutions. What matters for me is the extreme sharpness of the native resolution. It's the main thing I love about TFTs, and no way I'm gonna go back to the blurry CRTs.

CRTs have good color across the screen. How about TFTs?

Yes, the color is still a weakness of the TFTs. They're not as good as on CRTs, but they aren't bad either. I am willing to sacrifice a bit color quality in favor of the great clarity and sharpness of a TFT's native resolution.

CRTs work great at all angles, and in bright rooms. How about TFTs?

The ones with IPS and MVA panels work just as great, and also in bright rooms. TFTs are brighter than CRTs, anyway. And TFTs don't have a reflecting surface like CRTs, so in bright rooms, they work better than CRTs. I once had a CRT so I know what I am talking about.

CRTs don't have dead pixels. How about TFTs?

Good ones don't have dead pixels either. And while we're at it: TFTs have no annoying damper wires. . how about the Trinitron CRTs. . .

CRTs don't "ghost"? How about TFTs

TN and IPS TFTs don't ghost either. It's only MVA/PVA that is still slow. Don't generalize that only because you've seen a MVA/PVA TFT ghosting !

You're like my mom. She, being a she, has a defective gene that makes her think the more expensive products must be better. If TFTs were cheaper and "old" technology, you'd "know" that CRTs are better.

Wrong ! You got me wrong. I didn't say that TFTs are better coz they are expensive. I said that I don't choose a CRT coz they are cheap, and I am willing to pay more for a TFT coz they are better. And even if they were cheaper than CRTs, they'd still be better.
Dude, I own a TFT for over 5 years. And I've seen CRTs in that time, too. No way they are better and no way I would ever return. And guess what ? All of my friends have TFTs, too. And you know why ? Coz everyone of them likes them more.

The only reason to get a TFT is to save mass, and about the only person desperate enough to give up the benefits of a CRT are laptop users.

And once again you think that your opinion is the only one that counts :rolleyes:
There are many people like me that actually like TFTs and prefer it over CRTs, and not for the mass, but for picture quality, believe it or not.

Now, it's time you re-think what you think you know about everything.

Nope. I don't have to re-think anything. For me and anyone I know, TFTs are superior.

If someone has to re-think something, then it'd be you. Only coz you have a different opinion you get mad at me and insult me. Now that attitude is something you have to re-think.

The Geek

[Shinigami-Sama]

LCDs can generaly handle higher refresh rates than crts at the same price though
I mean I bought my lcd because of the contrast, and the colour is no issue after a day or two
I'd rather get another LCD than a crt any day of hte week, but I think my lcd is 12ms, but it;s running @ 70hz right now two
but meh

[The Geek]

LCDs can generaly handle higher refresh rates than crts at the same price though

No. CRTs use higher refresh rates than TFTs. But that's because CRTs flicker and they need to be able to use a higher refresh rate in order to eliminate the visible flickering.
TFTs don't flicker at all, so there is no reason for a high refresh rate. TFTs support 60 to about 70, 75Hz, depending on the model.

The Geek

[futurex]

ok people, i return to this thread since it has gone slightly off its topic, and also because i have in solved my dilemma :)

first, i used the display colour calibration tool that comes with the nvidia drivers.

i then chose a video clip which in particular displayed a lot of ghosting. (my clip was a hdtv capture of the show "lost" that i recorded the other night). i would play the clip, and at the same time, adjust the brightness, saturation, etc in the nvdvd decoder setup (in vmr9, ofcourse). once i got it to the setting that gave minimal ghosting, i took a screenshot of the window, just incase i changed them by accident. also, i made sure my refresh rate was at 75Hz, as all video content is pal, and 25x3 = 75.

the next thing i did was give the monitor its own power supply (rather than the monitor being connected to my pc's power supply).

another VERY important thing i did, was move BACK FROM THE MONITOR. it seems i became accustomed to having my face several inches from the screen (this would also explain the sudden decrease in quality of all my videos :p ) i forgot that 'the bigger the display, the further away you should move'.

i played the clip from 'lost' again, it looked stunning. looks just like its meant to. i then gave it the ultimate test: the first war in lord of the rings: return of the king special extended edition. i tried it in both my xvid backup and my original dvd. i was left breathless :) :) :)

seems the ghosting was a result of several things, but i really think it was because the colour settings on my nvidia drivers were calibrated for my old monitor, and also the distance away from the monito thing :p

thanks for the help guys, and hope somebody else can find this useful.