Cell splitting in VobBlanker?

[iliketowatch]

I looked in the Readme, Help and Guides, but did not see any (obvious) possibilities.

I would like to be able to split a cell into two cells. Since I did not see a direct possibility for this, I thought I might be able to make a copy of a cell and edit each accordingly. I did not see how this is possible either. Is there a method to do this?

My intended use is to edit the cells of video recorded on my DVD recorder (Liteon 5006). I want to be able to record a VHS tape (e.g., current project is home videos) unattended and go back and edit in chapters. I can add chapter marks manually while recording, but that requires sitting through the entire video with my thumb poised over the chapter mark button. (Thus the desire to do it unattended.) It can mark chapters every 5,10,15,20,25 or 30 minutes, but then I still need to split cells. If no chapter marking (or always?) is used, it creates cells every minute (HQ and SP mode) or every 2.5 minutes (all other modes). But again, the cells still need splitting


I remember using one of the later 1.6 versions via WINE, but now I can't get a file (VIDEO_TS.IFO) to read in using VobBlanker in WINE/Linux nor in windows. (Previously, I could get as far as editting the cell in WINE.) In both cases it starts to read the file in but gives "Error : Cell not found". I am a newbie to VobBlanker, but I don't see what I'm missing. I even went into PgcEdit to make sure there is a cell. There is, it's a still frame, but it is a cell.
I'm at work now, but I'll try it at home with a commercial DVD. (Just in case there is some incompatibility with my recorder.)

Any guidance/help is appreciated.

[Surf]

It can mark chapters every 5,10,15,20,25 or 30 minutes, but then I still need to split cells. If no chapter marking (or always?) is used, it creates cells every minute (HQ and SP mode) or every 2.5 minutes (all other modes). But again, the cells still need splitting

???

Really weird programming of the Liteon....surely there's a setting to YOUR choice of chapters?

At the moment I don't think you need VobBlanker. Try DVDstyler or DVDauthorgui instead for your dvd authoring...

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf
???

Really weird programming of the Liteon....surely there's a setting to YOUR choice of chapters?

At the moment I don't think you need VobBlanker. Try DVDstyler or DVDauthorgui instead for your dvd authoring...

I guess the "???" means I wasn't very clear. (?)

I can add chapter marks manually while recording, or it can mark chapters every 5,10,15,20,25 or 30 minutes. There is no editing capability.

EDIT: Oops, I must have hit post instead of preview.

So, it sounds like I can't split or duplicate a cell in VobBlanker. Correct? I was hoping not to have to reauthor nor run any new apps. I'll look into those apps. Thanks.

[jeanl]

From what I've read (from reputable sources like mpucoder) it's really not a simple task to add a chapter in an already authored DVD without re-authoring, because chapters have to coincide with the beginning of a cell.
You're not the first one who wondered about that, but I can't see a strong demand for that (maybe I'm not listening very well). Although I can relate with you, DVD recorders are annoying that way (authoring is extremely limited)...
jeanl

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by jeanl
From what I've read (from reputable sources like mpucoder) it's really not a simple task to add a chapter in an already authored DVD without re-authoring, because chapters have to coincide with the beginning of a cell.
You're not the first one who wondered about that, but I can't see a strong demand for that (maybe I'm not listening very well). Although I can relate with you, DVD recorders are annoying that way (authoring is extremely limited)...
jeanl

I realize chapters have to coincide with the beginning of a cell, but I can make a cell into a chapter using PgcEdit. That's why I figured if I could split a cell (or duplicate/edit) then I would have what I wanted.
But I don't know much about the "lower levels" of the DVD spec. Perhaps this is not trivial and therefore requires reauthoring. So, no way at all to split a cell, or duplicate it?

Thanks for the info.

[jsoto]

So, it sounds like I can't split or duplicate a cell in VobBlanker. Correct? I was hoping not to have to reauthor nor run any new apps. I'll look into those apps. Thanks. Correct. But I can give you some ideas...

1.- Extract all the cells of your PGc with Vobblanker (ExtAll Mult nutton, which means Extract All in Multiple files, one file per cell.)
2.- Use AddChapter to add one blank cell/program/chapter.
3.- Copy the cell to be split in a new folder, namint it VTS_01_1.VOB
4.- Create IFOs on this Cell with IFOEdit
5.- Run VobBlanker in the "single-Cell" DVD and cut the cell (twice), creating two new "single-cell" DVDs.
6.- Copy the VTS_01_1.VOB files of the new "single cell" DVDs to, i.e., file2a and file2b
7.- Create a new set of VOB files with MSDOS commands:
copy /b file1+file2a+file2b+file3 VTS_XX_1.VOB
copy /b file4+file5+file6 VTS_XX_2.VOB
....
8.- Use VobBlanker's replace function in the original DVD
9.- Use PGCEdit to adjust the Cell Type flags, in the last cell, and in the one you split.

jsoto

EDIT: It will take much time, so probably the best option is to use pgcDemux, add the required time in Celltimes file, mux again with MuxMan or IFOedit and finally, replace with VobBlanker (You need to use AddChapter in any case before replacing)

[blutach]

Just musing here.

Could use Addchapter, which adds a blank chapter at the end of the PGC. The use PgcEdit to reassign the cells to each chapter, pushing them down the chain from the split point - this is very easy. The seamless flag would need to be reset to 8 from 2 (and the new video from Addchapter would be unreferenced - no big deal).

So now we have 2 cells in the middle of the PGC which are the same.

Now use VobBlanker (or perhaps cutfile?) to cut the duplicate cells precisely where you need them to be cut, in the first, deleting from the cut point to the end of the cell, in the second, deleting from the start to the cut point.

The only thing here that may be a worry is the broken GOP, but I believe that VobBlanker handles this pretty well.

Might be worth experimenting.

Regards

[lark]

wouldn't it be a lot easier to demux video & audio
and remux them again (with muxman) while defining the chapters?

or what am i missing here?

regards
t :)

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by jsoto
Correct. But I can give you some ideas...

1.- Extract all the cells of your PGc with Vobblanker (ExtAll Mult nutton, which means Extract All in Multiple files, one file per cell.)
2.- Use AddChapter to add one blank cell/program/chapter.
3.- Copy the cell to be split in a new folder, namint it VTS_01_1.VOB
4.- Create IFOs on this Cell with IFOEdit
5.- Run VobBlanker in the "single-Cell" DVD and cut the cell (twice), creating two new "single-cell" DVDs.
6.- Copy the VTS_01_1.VOB files of the new "single cell" DVDs to, i.e., file2a and file2b
7.- Create a new set of VOB files with MSDOS commands:
copy /b file1+file2a+file2b+file3 VTS_XX_1.VOB
copy /b file4+file5+file6 VTS_XX_2.VOB
....
8.- Use VobBlanker's replace function in the original DVD
9.- Use PGCEdit to adjust the Cell Type flags, in the last cell, and in the one you split.

jsoto

EDIT: It will take much time, so probably the best option is to use pgcDemux, add the required time in Celltimes file, mux again with MuxMan or IFOedit and finally, replace with VobBlanker (You need to use AddChapter in any case before replacing)

Wow, that sounds involved, but educational. ExtAll Mult works fine.
I didn't get the time to try further. Since I am running Linux, I am unable to edit cells (for now. :)) (IfoEdit is the only program I run regularly under WINE.) There is a program GOPchop (http://outflux.net/software/pkgs/GOPchop/) that can edit VOBs at the GOP level. So, for step 5, could I use GOPchop?
In step 7, you can just concatenate VOB files into a larger one?

The DeMux/ReMux process is new to me. I will have to experiment.

Thanks.

Originally posted by blutach
Just musing here.

Could use Addchapter, which adds a blank chapter at the end of the PGC. The use PgcEdit to reassign the cells to each chapter, pushing them down the chain from the split point - this is very easy. The seamless flag would need to be reset to 8 from 2 (and the new video from Addchapter would be unreferenced - no big deal).

So now we have 2 cells in the middle of the PGC which are the same.

Now use VobBlanker (or perhaps cutfile?) to cut the duplicate cells precisely where you need them to be cut, in the first, deleting from the cut point to the end of the cell, in the second, deleting from the start to the cut point.

The only thing here that may be a worry is the broken GOP, but I believe that VobBlanker handles this pretty well.

Might be worth experimenting.


I am familiar with PgcEdit. How do I reassign the cells to "push them down the chain"? Edit "VOB/Cell ID"? "Edit Chapter (PTT) table"?
If VobBlanker doesn't handle the broken GOP, perhaps a mock strip in IfoEdit would.

Originally posted by lark
wouldn't it be a lot easier to demux video & audio
and remux them again (with muxman) while defining the chapters?

or what am i missing here?


Again, the DeMux/ReMux process is new to me. I will have to experiment. I just wonder how I would demux the video and audio and then edit them to the same length. (This would be the case for removing commercials; not a problem for home videos, since I am just inserting a new cell split.)


Thanks for all of the advise folks. Sunday I should get a chance to sit down and spend a couple of hours experimenting. As mentioned, the process could turn out to take too much time for every day use, but will definitely be a learning experience.

[r0lZ]

Originally posted by jsoto
Correct. But I can give you some ideas...

1.- Extract all the cells of your PGc with Vobblanker (ExtAll Mult nutton, which means Extract All in Multiple files, one file per cell.)
2.- Use AddChapter to add one blank cell/program/chapter.
3.- Copy the cell to be split in a new folder, namint it VTS_01_1.VOB
4.- Create IFOs on this Cell with IFOEdit
5.- Run VobBlanker in the "single-Cell" DVD and cut the cell (twice), creating two new "single-cell" DVDs.
6.- Copy the VTS_01_1.VOB files of the new "single cell" DVDs to, i.e., file2a and file2b
7.- Create a new set of VOB files with MSDOS commands:
copy /b file1+file2a+file2b+file3 VTS_XX_1.VOB
copy /b file4+file5+file6 VTS_XX_2.VOB
....
8.- Use VobBlanker's replace function in the original DVD
9.- Use PGCEdit to adjust the Cell Type flags, in the last cell, and in the one you split.

jsoto

EDIT: It will take much time, so probably the best option is to use pgcDemux, add the required time in Celltimes file, mux again with MuxMan or IFOedit and finally, replace with VobBlanker (You need to use AddChapter in any case before replacing) BTW, jsoto, as you already have the code and preview to cut a part of the cell, is it verry difficult to split it? Of course, you will have to change the VOB/Cell ID, but if you don't care of the sequential order of the IDs, it is relatively easy to find the first unused VOB or Cell ID. What do you think?

[jeanl]

Originally posted by r0lZ
BTW, jsoto, as you already have the code and preview to cut a part of the cell, is it verry difficult to split it? Of course, you will have to change the VOB/Cell ID, but if you don't care of the sequential order of the IDs, it is relatively easy to find the first unused VOB or Cell ID. What do you think?
That's funny I was thinking of that! Then it's a simple matter to change the cells in the PGC to add the missing chapter. The only potential problem I can see is the "wrong" order in the VOB/CELL IDs...

@blutach: you don't even have to move the cells down. There's no problem with doing it this way as far as I can tell:

Original Cells in the PGC:
1
2
3
4
5
After split:
1 (first half of 1) Use cell command to jump to 6.
2
3
4
5
6 (second half of 1) Use cell command to jump to 2.

and the second solution has the advantage that you won't break pointers to specific cells, which would happen if you inserted a cell in between 1 and 2.
In short, all we need is a program that will "cut" the VOB cell in half (simply by changing the VOB/CELL ID of the second half, and adjusting a few pointers in the nav packs - quite a few in fact! the VOBU_SRI pointers and the SYNCI pointers should probably be modified in both parts of the cell). You don't even need to rewrite the vob. All this could be done "in place".

jeanl

[r0lZ]

Originally posted by iliketowatch
I am familiar with PgcEdit. How do I reassign the cells to "push them down the chain"? Edit "VOB/Cell ID"? "Edit Chapter (PTT) table"? You have to click on the VOB/Cell ID button in the cell table. Then, select the new V/CID you want to assign.
For blutach's method, you will have to start from the last cell, and assign it the V/CID of the previous one, then do the same with the previous one, until you reach the cell you want to duplicate.
But it's a tedious work if you want to cut several cells.

I think the best method is to manually create a celltimes.txt file(find the cell times with any player able to display the frame number), and then demux and remux with pgcdemux and muxman.

[jeanl]

If jsoto does not feel like implementing this kind of function, it wouldn't be hard to write a small app (probably command-line) that just does the VOB modification (not the IFO). Then the user would have to go to PgcEdit and make a few modifications on the PGC, which could be done with a macro, really! ;)
jeanl
EDIT: I forgot, at least 1 table would need to be modified in the IFOs to reflect the new VOB/CELL ID...

[r0lZ]

Yes, you have to modify the V***_C_ADT table.

Note that your method with cell commands to link to the second half of the cell will introduce a discontinuity, and a 2 secs pause. Pitty.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by r0lZ
Yes, you have to modify the V***_C_ADT table.

Note that your method with cell commands to link to the second half of the cell will introduce a discontinuity, and a 2 secs pause. Pitty.
Oh darn! You're right. A cell with a cell command cannot be seamless (if it is, the cell command will be ignored). Well, that's a good reason to use Blutach's method. This will make it seamless, it's a bit more work though...
jeanl

[jsoto]

BTW, jsoto, as you already have the code and preview to cut a part of the cell, is it verry difficult to split it? Yes, seems not so difficult the VOB part. But the IFO... I should have to integrate AddChapter.... There are many tables to be modified (they grow) and each one can jump over a new sector...

Of course, you will have to change the VOB/Cell ID, but if you don't care of the sequential order of the IDs, it is relatively easy to find the first unused VOB or Cell ID. What do you think?
Are you really saying this?. May be someone has hacked your username? :D
Seriously, to be compliant I should not do this, although all of us know that VID/CID sequence is not so critical. But I really do not like to go one step back, so we need to find a better solution. May be I can increment by one all the following CIDs in the same VID.

jsoto

[r0lZ]

Originally posted by jsoto
Yes, seems not so difficult the VOB part. But the IFO... I should have to integrate AddChapter.... There are many tables to be modified (they grow) and each one can jump over a new sector...I know it's difficult. But it can be done!

Are you really saying this?. May be someone has hacked your username? :D
Seriously, to be compliant I should not do this, although all of us know that VID/CID sequence is not so critical. But I really do not like to go one step back, so we need to find a better solution. May be I can increment by one all the following CIDs in the same VID. That is THE solution, of course! But you have also to modify many tables in the IFOs.

[iliketowatch]

Looks like a lively, constructive conversation here. Thanks.

@jeanl & @r0lZ:
Thanks for the help on cell reordering. I had forgotten about the 2 sec delay also. I think I would opt for r0lZ method to avoid the delay. It doesn't sound that tedious, but that will depend on the number of cells I want to split and the number of cells in the PGC.

I get the gist of your suggestions to jsoto. Some more insight into the inner structure of DVDs for me.

@jsoto:
It would of course be great to see this feature (and the required integration of AddChapter, which I still need to try) in VobBlanker. But it does not sound easy. Would others find the splitting of cells useful? If not, it may not be worth it. But since you work on it for the fun of it, perhaps the intellectual aspect will be enticing.


Thanks all. This sounds like I can get the videos recorded now and be able to edit them soon/later. (I can then keep the original DVD recording as a backup.) I also have the 1m/2.5m cells (depending on the recording mode) that, for now, I can turn into chapter marks.
For now, I have some apps to try in WINE.

[jeanl]

iliketowatch,
Just one comment. I once played with a DVD recorder (a pioneer). When I tried to rip one of the DVD-R (nor DVD-RW) it created, I noticed that the VOB was organized in 30s cells! I assumed that this was a choice made so they could record on the fly and have access to various parts of the VOB after the fact, when using DVD-R. When using DVD-RW the situation was different. In any event, that made the editing really tedious in nero (which I was using at the time, big mistake) because nero would split the VOB into 30s chapters and create small gaps in between (eeek!).

I don't know if you've already tried ripping your DVDs and playing with them on your PC, but maybe you'll notice the same thing (lots of small cells).
If this is the case, then it will make inserting a chapter really tedious, unless is coincides exactly with one of the cells you have (in which case it will be trivial).
jeanl

[iliketowatch]

jeanl,

My DVD recorder (Liteon 5006) creates cells every 60s (HQ and SP mode) or every 150s (all other modes). I use DVD+RW and DVD+R. It creates two dirs: VIDEO_RM and VIDEO_TS. VIDEO_TS is just as you would find on a DVD-ROM (but with empty BUPs?!). VIDEO_RM contains VIDEO_RM.BUP VIDEO_RM.DAT VIDEO_RM.IFO. (I assume VIDEO_RM/VIDEO_RM.DAT holds info useful for keeping track of sessions for finalizing the disc later.)
I can't recall if I have recorded directly to a +R yet.

Yes, I've already played with some of the recorded DVDs on my PC. Actually, that's when I discovered I could make a cell into a chapter (add a chapter mark to a cell?). That's when I realized that if I could split a cell, then I could put chapter marks anywhere, post-recording.
So, for now I can put a chapter mark at the start of any cell (60s in SP mode) I like.

I did a test recording 20m per mode. When I mounted the disc, it showed a disc with almost 9G. It had 3 VTSs with the same size VOB files. (The VTS1 IFO was slightly bigger thatn the other two.) Apparently, there was some confusion with the fs (UDF) and/or with reused cell IDs. I understand having 3 VTSs, since the five modes use three different screen resolutions, but the 9G is strange.

Thanks for the comment. I did play with a disc from a recorder at work. (A Sony, can't remember model.) It used a different record mode for DVD-RW. So, each recorder will have it's quirks.

[Surf]

Hi Voyeur (:D, couldn't resist, no offense),

I am shooting in the dark here:

Open the dvd folder with DVDshrink and backup in Re-author mode. Load the main title and open the famous chop chop feature and create your Chapter1. Load the title again and chop it to create Chapter2 and so on and so on. It shouldn't be that tedious nor difficult. The used one of the two dvd authoring programs I mentioned to create menus...

Hope it works out.

[blutach]

Originally posted by jeanl
Oh darn! You're right. A cell with a cell command cannot be seamless (if it is, the cell command will be ignored). Well, that's a good reason to use Blutach's method. This will make it seamless, it's a bit more work though...
jeanl I was about to say the same thing as r0lZ regarding the pause (on a standalone player anyway - on a software one you wouldn't notice it), but I was asleep!!

Reassigning the cell numbers is a breeze in PgcEdit, as r0lZ has explained, however, if you have something like Mulholland Drive where you really want to make say 30 chapters out of 2, then what I have suggested is a PITA and demuxing and remuxing with celltimes.txt is clearly the simplest method.

Regards

[blutach]

Originally posted by jsoto
Yes, seems not so difficult the VOB part. But the IFO... I should have to integrate AddChapter.... There are many tables to be modified (they grow) and each one can jump over a new sector...


Are you really saying this?. May be someone has hacked your username? :D
Seriously, to be compliant I should not do this, although all of us know that VID/CID sequence is not so critical. But I really do not like to go one step back, so we need to find a better solution. May be I can increment by one all the following CIDs in the same VID.

jsoto Maybe you could run ViDchanger over it a couple of times - would that fix the problem?

Regards

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf
Hi Voyeur (:D, couldn't resist, no offense),

I am shooting in the dark here:

Open the dvd folder with DVDshrink and backup in Re-author mode. Load the main title and open the famous chop chop feature and create your Chapter1. Load the title again and chop it to create Chapter2 and so on and so on. It shouldn't be that tedious nor difficult. The used one of the two dvd authoring programs I mentioned to create menus...

Hope it works out.


DVDshrink does work for me on Linux/WINE, but I have only used it to shrink, but not re-author. I'll give it a try, thanks (unless it needs some sort of preview/editing, that doesn't seem to work in Linux).

("I like to watch" is a line from Being There (http://imdb.com/title/tt0078841/) , Peter Sellers (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000634/) last movie. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it. But anyone that can appreciate a good satirical look at US culture, media and politics should see it.)

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by blutach
Maybe you could run ViDchanger over it a couple of times - would that fix the problem?

Regards

I haven't tried ViDchanger on Linux/WINE. It sounds like it would be very useful once the cell is duplicated/inserted. One more for the test list.

Thanks.

[Surf]

ooomgod, a Peter Sellers fan! Seen Dr. Strangelove hmm? Top that! Or the Party! :D

As you must have noticed by now, mine's a simple build-a-fishing-rod-with-a-branch-approach, not titanium blend with...

[jsoto]

Originally posted by r0lZ
That is THE solution, of course! But you have also to modify many tables in the IFOs.
I've been thinking on it and I believe I'll be able to do it in VobBlanker in the right way. So I take the point, but do not expect this feature too soon.

jsoto

[Surf]

@Jsoto:
I bothered you about cell chopping before but not the way iliketowatch wish to. Mine is a group of cells each representing a movie trailer. I find the green preview listing screen annoying and the "now available in dvd" display at the end, both of which I want to get rid of. So far I just re-author each title(cell) in DVDshrink's chop-chop version and use it to replace the corresponding cells with VobBlanker. It seemed to have worked a few times so far...any thoughts?

@iliketowatch:
How goes it? DVDshrink re-author method works?

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf
ooomgod, a Peter Sellers fan! Seen Dr. Strangelove hmm? Top that! Or the Party! :D
ng-rod-with-a-branch-approach, not titanium blend with...

Yes, I've seen Dr. Strangelove ... several times. But I'm not familiar with The Party (http://imdb.com/title/tt0063415/). I'll have to chck it out later. Thanks.

Originally posted by Surf
@Jsoto:
I bothered you about cell chopping before but not the way iliketowatch wish to. Mine is a group of cells each representing a movie trailer. I find the green preview listing screen annoying and the "now available in dvd" display at the end, both of which I want to get rid of. So far I just re-author each title(cell) in DVDshrink's chop-chop version and use it to replace the corresponding cells with VobBlanker. It seemed to have worked a few times so far...any thoughts?

@iliketowatch:
How goes it? DVDshrink re-author method works?

I haven't had a chance yet. Sorry. I'll have time this weekend. (BTW, I do want to keep the menu(s), but I believe I saw a guide for that recently.)

What is the chop-chop version of DVDshrink? (Or is that just what re-author is also called?) Is that easier that using VB for cell editing?

[jeanl]

Originally posted by iliketowatch

What is the chop-chop version of DVDshrink? (Or is that just what re-author is also called?)
:D that's just what re-author is also called .... by surf! :D :D
jeanl

[jsoto]

Originally posted by Surf
@Jsoto:
I bothered you about cell chopping before but not the way iliketowatch wish to. Mine is a group of cells each representing a movie trailer. I find the green preview listing screen annoying and the "now available in dvd" display at the end, both of which I want to get rid of. So far I just re-author each title(cell) in DVDshrink's chop-chop version and use it to replace the corresponding cells with VobBlanker. It seemed to have worked a few times so far...any thoughts?

@iliketowatch:
How goes it? DVDshrink re-author method works?
Well, cell cutting (in titles and Menu domain) is also in the TODO. Probably the next thing to work with.

jsoto

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf

@iliketowatch:
How goes it? DVDshrink re-author method works?

I opened one of the DVD recorder discs (ripped to hard drive) in re-author mode. However, it would only see the last title (of three). And twice at that. I looked at it in PgcEdit again to make sure it could see the three titles, and it could. I could even preview the cells. It could be something weird from the recorder. So, since I am new to the re-author mode (and I did look at the Basic Guide (http://www.dvdshrink.info/reauthor_basic.php)) I'll try it with a commercial DVD next.

I dnd't have as much time to experiment as I wanted (house repair took longer that expected) but I wanted to let you know I did take a look and ran into a problem.

[frank]

Use Nero Ultra Edition - NeroVision Express 3. Here you can import and edit your DVD+VR.
Set new chapters and export to DVD+VR. Ready!

I wonder that your LiteOn cannot edit chapters, my Philips does it, because it also has a harddisk. :)

[Surf]

How goes the project, iliketowatch?

Last nite I dabbled a little bit in DVDauthorGUI. I strongly believe you can specify the precise chapter points. The program however would offer one every 5min as default.

In near future I hope to buy one, possibly Boxing Day, the annual ritual of one toy treat. :p

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by frank
Use Nero Ultra Edition - NeroVision Express 3. Here you can import and edit your DVD+VR.
Set new chapters and export to DVD+VR. Ready!

I wonder that your LiteOn cannot edit chapters, my Philips does it, because it also has a harddisk. :)
I'm running Linux. Though I do have WINE installed, I'm trying to keep the number of win apps to a minimum. But if it works and does the job (for a decent price) I'm game. I looked at nero.com to look at the specifics, but I do not see it offered for sale, but I did find a demo version at http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/NeroVision_Express/1037929723/1 .
Thanks for the suggestion.

Does a DVD+VR disc have the VIDEO_RM directory (such as the LiteOn) or the DVD_RTAV dir (like a Sony I have used)?

Yes, the Lite on does not support any video editing since it does not have a HD.

Originally posted by Surf
How goes the project, iliketowatch?

Last nite I dabbled a little bit in DVDauthorGUI. I strongly believe you can specify the precise chapter points. The program however would offer one every 5min as default.

In near future I hope to buy one, possibly Boxing Day, the annual ritual of one toy treat. :p
Thanks for asking, Surf.

After my last reply, I looked at the re-author intermediate guide (http://www.dvdshrink.info/reauthor_intermediate.php) for DVDshrink. Now I know what you mean by the chop-chop feature. It's the Set "Start/End Frames" tool. I'll try it later. I'm hoping it works under WINE.

I downloaded DVDauthorGUI but it is complaining of missing libraries. (I'll mess with it after I try chop-chop in DVDshrink.) Since it is based on dvdauthor, I wonder if there is a Linux native app/front-end that will do the same?

If you get just one toy, a DVD recorder is a good choice. :) You have plenty of time to select which to get, and they should be even cheaper in half a year.

[mrslacker]

I run FreeBSD two thrids of the time and I understand your frustrations. But I use DVDAuthor routinely, and I have had some success with qdvdauthor (http://qdvdauthor.sourceforge.net/orig_index.html) as a frontend for dvdauthor. As you know, dvdauthor and mjpegtools are open source, so those are straight forward too.

MuxMan, with ascii project files, is becoming a high quality DVDAuthor. If you are just looking to reauthor with your custom chapter points, it should work fine. It has no .NET or VB dependencies either. (I believe mpucoder said that.) So it should run fine with WINE, although I haven't tried it.

I haven't absorbed this thread 100%, but it sounds like you could just split the clip with and mpeg cutter like GOPchop (http://gopchop.org/) (maybe after extracting the parent cell from the .VOB), and follow the suggestions using AddChapter, VIDChanger, and VobBlanker (with the reoder VID/CID sequence option checked, if appropriate).

[iliketowatch]

@surf
The "chop-chop" tool in DVDshrink works for me under WINE!
Now I just need to figure out how to get the menu functioningagain. I suppose blutach's UPDATED GUIDE: Adding Menus back to a DVD Shrink Re-authored DVD (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93257) is the place to start.
Thanks for the very useful suggestions.

Originally posted by mrslacker
I run FreeBSD two thrids of the time and I understand your frustrations. But I use DVDAuthor routinely, and I have had some success with qdvdauthor (http://qdvdauthor.sourceforge.net/orig_index.html) as a frontend for dvdauthor. As you know, dvdauthor and mjpegtools are open source, so those are straight forward too.

MuxMan, with ascii project files, is becoming a high quality DVDAuthor. If you are just looking to reauthor with your custom chapter points, it should work fine. It has no .NET or VB dependencies either. (I believe mpucoder said that.) So it should run fine with WINE, although I haven't tried it.

I haven't absorbed this thread 100%, but it sounds like you could just split the clip with and mpeg cutter like GOPchop (http://gopchop.org/) (maybe after extracting the parent cell from the .VOB), and follow the suggestions using AddChapter, VIDChanger, and VobBlanker (with the reoder VID/CID sequence option checked, if appropriate).
Yes, it can be frustrating at times. I was hoping to not (re-)author, but retain the DVD structure and just modify the video. (My DVD authoring experience is very limited.) But some projects are easier if you just start with the pieces and build it yourself.
I haven't tried qdvdauthor for a while, I should revisit it. Muxman sounds promising, but I have not tried it yet. I have used GOPchop, and it works fine. I just didn't know how to integrate the video back into the DVD. (Again, limitied authoring experience.) For now, I'll try to do it with DVDshrink, PgcEdit and VobBlanker.

Thanks to all. It looks like I am getting closer and I have some good clues from this thread to keep me going for a while.

[Surf]

"The "chop-chop" tool in DVDshrink works for me.." Oh crap, you can now envision me lining up for the ultimate boxing day door crasher thrill of a dvd recorder deal...with hdd.:p

Yes Blu's guide is what you'll be needing, not yet. BUT at this time you DON'T have a set of menus yet, if I'm not mistaken! All you have now are chapters.

You may want use DVDStyler to create a simple set, a main menu with 2 buttons, PLAY & SCENE SELECTION, and a sub-set of chapter menus.

Familiarize yourself with PgcEdit by loading a ripped commercial dvd and note the commands of the chapter menus.

I'll try to upload a set of ifos tomorrow if I don't forget...

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf
"The "chop-chop" tool in DVDshrink works for me.." Oh crap, you can now envision me lining up for the ultimate boxing day door crasher thrill of a dvd recorder deal...with hdd.:p

Yes Blu's guide is what you'll be needing, not yet. BUT at this time you DON'T have a set of menus yet, if I'm not mistaken! All you have now are chapters.

You may want use DVDStyler to create a simple set, a main menu with 2 buttons, PLAY & SCENE SELECTION, and a sub-set of chapter menus.

Familiarize yourself with PgcEdit by loading a ripped commercial dvd and note the commands of the chapter menus.

I'll try to upload a set of ifos tomorrow if I don't forget...
I have titles; many more than when I started. I also have the original menus. One (Big?) problem is that DVDshrink created a new Title in a new Titleset for each "cut" I made. (The original was one Title in one Titleset.) I guess this is because it (seemed to) only let me chop at the title level in re-author mode. Perhaps I missed something? I'll look again when I get home.

I am quite familiar with PgcEdit. I have backed-up commercial DVDs and edited commands. I just need the menu imported as a menu. I can take care of getting it to function again.

Perhaps I need to try another suggestion: VobBlanker. I know I can edit at the cell level in VB. ... But after rereading the thread, it has its problems too.

jsoto and lark suggested I use PgcDemux and MuxMan. PgcDemux works fine under wine. (The time units appear to be frames @30/sec.) Muxman I will need to study more. I looked at the home page and I don't see where the cell time file is used to remux the video. Clues/examples anyone? I think this might be the way to go, as long as the IFOs can be readjusted and the menu(s) still function properly.

I (and others, I think) would like to be able to cut sections of video (commercials, logos, ...) as well. That might require cutting with VB (allows cutting video and audio, and avoid sync issues later) and then demux,remux to modify the cell boundaries. (mrslacker also mentioned using GOPchop followed by AddChapter, VIDChanger, and VobBlanker.)

I'm just thinking out loud here to show my knowledge (and many gaps) of what I understand each tool can do and how those capabilities relate to the DVD structure. Of course I could just be patient and wait for jsoto to implement cell spliting in VobBlanker. ;)
As always, your insights and knowledge are much appreciated.

[Surf]

"I have titles; many more than when I started. I also have the original menus. One (Big?) problem is that DVDshrink created a new Title in a new Titleset for each "cut" I made. (The original was one Title in one Titleset.)"

lol, that's the point. Now each titleset represent a chapter.

I am not sure myself whether you can "join" back all the titles/chapters back into one title and redo again the DVDshrink, to choose your specific chapter points...

[mrslacker]

Originally posted by iliketowatch
Muxman I will need to study more. I looked at the home page and I don't see where the cell time file is used to remux the video. Clues/examples anyone?
Just make a text file listing frame numbers for the chapter points. The nearest I-frame will be used if you aren't specifying I-frames to begin with. Skim through the earlier MuxMan threads for a basic look at the program.

Originally posted by Surf
I am not sure myself whether you can "join" back all the titles/chapters back into one title and redo again the DVDshrink, to choose your specific chapter points...
Of course! DVDAuthor will do this in a snap (http://dvdauthor.sourceforge.net/doc/ex-title.html#AEN45). See "One chapter, two sources" if it doesn't jump there. AFAIK, MuxMan will make one VTS too, but it needs elementary streams. EDIT: The success of joining titles without demuxing depends on what you consider "seamless".

@iliketowatch
I think you have lots of ways to do what you want. Get used to demuxing and forge ahead! :)

[Surf]

Hey! Not another word on muxing/de-muxing/re-muxing! :D

But you're right that DVDauthorgui will do that, silly me to forget in such a hurry. My House-of-Flying-Daggers resulted from such.

[iliketowatch]

@Surf
Yea, combining the titles is what is needed now. It's the current complication.

@mrslacker
I'll look in the forums for muxman details.

That's right, good old dvdauthor. It uses mpg files for input, which are the audio and video muxed, right? Then it adds the navigation commands that make it a VOB file, correct? PgcDemux removes the nav cmds and splits the audio and video. I looked in the PgcDemux readme, but didn't see an option for just removing the nav cmds. Given the above assumptions are a correct, is there a way to keep the a/v together as an mpg file (i.e., just strip nav cmds) or do I have to remux them? I realize now that to keep things seamless (i.e., avoid the 2 sec delay mentioned previously) is to break it down into the simpler entities. I was just hoping I could keep the audio and video together to (hopefully) simplify matters.

[mrslacker]

Originally posted by iliketowatch
That's right, good old dvdauthor. It uses mpg files for input, which are the audio and video muxed, right? Then it adds the navigation commands that make it a VOB file, correct? PgcDemux removes the nav cmds and splits the audio and video. I looked in the PgcDemux readme, but didn't see an option for just removing the nav cmds.
It can take VOB files too. Anyway, you're referring to program streams, the product of multiplexed elementary streams (esp. audio and video).

There are navigation packets in DVD programs streams (VOBs), the commands are in the IFOs. DVDAuthor doesn't add the nav packets (mplex does that when used properly), but it does fill them up.

There are a lot of resources (read: a lot to learn) on mpeg and DVD out there.

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by mrslacker
It can take VOB files too. Anyway, you're referring to program streams, the product of multiplexed elementary streams (esp. audio and video).

There are navigation packets in DVD programs streams (VOBs), the commands are in the IFOs. DVDAuthor doesn't add the nav packets (mplex does that when used properly), but it does fill them up.

There are a lot of resources (read: a lot to learn) on mpeg and DVD out there.

I didn't know dvdauthor would accept VOB files. Good news. Thanks.
So, I should be able to find a tool to get the frame or time where I want a chapter break to go.
I suppose I could integrate the old menu, later.

Thanks for clarifying the proper terminology. I read a bit on DVD structure last summer, but it (obviously) didn't stick since I did not understand it in context.

[mrslacker]

To get the frame numbers, you could use VirtualDub. Alternatively, you could just calculate the approximate frame number from the time.

frame = seconds*fps

where fps is 29.97 for NTSC, starting at frame #0.

p.s. I hope this post doesn't look funny. I'm using lynx on the command line b/c of network problems.

[mrslacker]

You can also putShowFrameNumber(scroll=false) into your avs script to see something like what is shown in this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=639222#post639222). You can step through it with any player capable. Media player classic can do this with the left and right arrows. Just know that you won't necessarily be selecting I-frames with this method, but if you pick a new scene, it's likely to not matter.

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by mrslacker
You can also putShowFrameNumber(scroll=false) into your avs script to see something like what is shown in this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=639222#post639222). You can step through it with any player capable. Media player classic can do this with the left and right arrows. Just know that you won't necessarily be selecting I-frames with this method, but if you pick a new scene, it's likely to not matter.

Ok, I can get the frame numbers from a viewer or get close with the equation.
But what is an avs script and how does it relate to the post?
I'm lost on that one.

[Surf]

"Where did he learn to negotiate like that...?"
"I wonder." Said the President out loud, after Bruce overpowered the Mangalores.

One of the main goals is NOT to demux/remux if I'm not mistaken, rather just the chapters with specific times.

Heck, I even downloaded the Liteon 5006's manual. :p As usual the info I am looking to confirm, the pic isn't clear. It's about whether you can choose, say a 2 hour recording WITHOUT chapters. This way you would have just one title(1).

If the above is possible, then the re-author backup method in DVDshrink can create your specific chapters which will show up as VTS-01, 02, 03....

Create your chapter pages in DVDStyler(now new ver 1.4) and when it authors, all the VTS-es will be combined back to just VTS-01-s.

The picture of me lining up for a cheap boxing deal's will fade if the above won't work...I will only devote x much time to transfer to a dvd.

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by Surf
"Where did he learn to negotiate like that...?"
"I wonder." Said the President out loud, after Bruce overpowered the Mangalores.

One of the main goals is NOT to demux/remux if I'm not mistaken, rather just the chapters with specific times.

Heck, I even downloaded the Liteon 5006's manual. :p As usual the info I am looking to confirm, the pic isn't clear. It's about whether you can choose, say a 2 hour recording WITHOUT chapters. This way you would have just one title(1).

If the above is possible, then the re-author backup method in DVDshrink can create your specific chapters which will show up as VTS-01, 02, 03....

Create your chapter pages in DVDStyler(now new ver 1.4) and when it authors, all the VTS-es will be combined back to just VTS-01-s.

The picture of me lining up for a cheap boxing deal's will fade if the above won't work...I will only devote x much time to transfer to a dvd.
Yes, I don't want to have to demux/remux, if possible.
I just want to split the cells in order to create a new chapter marker. (Or some functional equivalent.)

The Liteon does record any length you want, with or without chapters, as one title.
Also, whether or not there are chapters, there is a cell for every minute (HQ and SP mode) or every 2.5 minutes (other modes).
Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

My "problem" is that DVDshrink creates new titles (a new VTS) for each chop.
That's why I thought using dvdauthor sounded good after MrSlacker told me it could handle VOB files as input.
So, it sounds like DVDStyler is also a good choice for (re)authoring.
The icing would be to keep the original menu(s).

So, the Liteon should still be a good choice for Boxing Day.
I suppose another choice for editing would be to get a recorder with a HD. Those are pricy (US $600+) and unless I get to thoroughly test it before purchase, no go.

[2COOL]

Originally posted by iliketowatch
So, it sounds like DVDStyler is also a good choice for (re)authoring. If you didn't know, new version 1.4 (http://dvdstyler.sourceforge.net/) came out a couple days ago.

[iliketowatch]

Originally posted by 2COOL
If you didn't know, new version 1.4 came out a couple days ago.
Yea, Surf mentioned that too. Thanks for reminding me.
I tried 1.31 and 1.4, but got an error.

I posted a message on the DVDStyler: Forum (http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1287149&forum_id=318795).
**ERROR: [mplex] Unable to read from dvd/title0-1-0-0.mp1.

Error executing of command: mplex -f 8 -S 0 -o "dvd/title0-1-0.vob" "dvd/title0-1-0-0.m2v" "dvd/title0-1-0-0.mp1"

-rw-r--r-- 1 user users 0 2005-05-19 14:47 title0-1-0-0.mp1

Also a lot of:
DemultiplexingXXX : [audio 04 video 03] [ 95.00%]
Erroneous packet size, skipping
Erroneous packet size, skipping
DemultiplexingXXX : [audio 04 video 04] [100.00%]
Demultiplexing : [audio 04 video 04] [100.00%]
I suppose I should experiment with a commercial DVD since the VOBs will be more "standard".
But it does look like what I want: I can specify chapter points.