Difference between the HDV and DV

[guada 2]

Hello everyone,

Besides, an algorithm of correction of mistakes distinctly more sophisticated than the DV, what defers the DV of the HDV of the point of technical view? ( except the compression and to shoot in high definition ).

For the video cameras compatible HDV/DV, what is the interest of the DV?

[neuron2]

If you are asking us to compare DV to HDV, can you first tell us what you mean by HDV? It is not an abrreviation that I am familiar with.

[guada 2]

Hello neuron2

The HDV is the format high resolution exploited by the new DV video cameras.
2 norms have been developed for the general public: the 720p and the 1080i.
In first,JVC solely present on the market Japanese and American, then Sony that rushes today on the market European with its new HDR-FX1 video camera.
Reiterating the same principle that JVC to shoot in HD on a simple DV strip.

[neuron2]

OK, thank you. I'll defer to more knowledgeable people to answer your question.

[communist]

DV:
I-Frame only compression, sort of advanced MJPEG. The bitrate is fixed @ 25Mbit/s and colorformat is either 4:2:0 for PAL or 4:1:1 for NTSC. Resolution is fixed @ 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC).
Audio is 2xChannels with 48kHz / 16bits or 4xChannels with 48kHz(?) / 12bits.
Recorded on DV / miniDV cassettes. There are some professional derivates of it with some modifications like DVCAM (Sony) or DVCPRO25/50 (Panasonic) which either offer more robust cassettes (less drop-outs) or higher bitrate/4:2:2 colorformat.

HDV:
MPEG2 compression with I/P/B frames. Bitrate : 19Mbps for 720p and 25Mbps for 1080i.
Resolution is either 1440 x 720p (JVC) or 1440 x 1080i (Sony).
Audio is MPEG1 Layer 2 @ 384Kbps (48 kHz / 16 bit).
Recorded on DV / miniDV cassettes.
For more information check out this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84722) .

[bb]

@communist:
Thank you for the format overview. Just a minor correction: The four channels audio variant should be 32 kHz sample rate @ 12 Bits precision.

bb

[guada 2]

Thank you communist,

Apparently, the HDV is not quite to the point.
When I observe the technical progress of the JVC models or SONY, one perceives that the shot in HD, of course superior to the DV video cameras, because of the meaningful improvement of the quality of the optics puts some questions.

It is necessary to remember that the mpeg2 is a compression of temporal type on several pictures, therefore parts between the key pictures are calculated by interpolation thanks to different data, as vectors of movement direction.
To solve it, the relatively identifiable reference marks are necessary therefore in the pictures.
But this Mpeg2 compression shows its limits:
For example, when one makes turn the camera on its axis. Even on a TVHD, the artifacts are not visible, on the other hand the picture is going to lose its cleanness and to become a little "soft."
Other example, when someone shoots a stage in which all the picture moves uncertain manner, as the sea or the surface of a lake. When one does a panning in these conditions, the algorithm of compression shows its limits.

The problems are not always obvious to identify at the time of the shot on the small LCD screen, a particular attention is necessary.

Note: sorry for my english

It is not easy the translation in English. :(
One could not speak French during 2 minutes. :)

[Dali Lama]

Originally posted by communist

Resolution is either 1440 x 720p (JVC) or 1440 x 1080i (Sony).


JVC has a 1280x720p camcorder, not 1440x720p.

[guada 2]

You are right Dali llama because the HDV format permits to accept several types of HD signals:
1080/50i and 1080/60i, as well as the 720/60p, 720/30p, 720/50p and 720/50p.
In 720p the real resolution corresponds to 1280*720p.
In 1080i, it is 1440*1080p that are anamorphosis in order to get a signal in 1920*1080p.
In any case the ration of the picture is therefore 1.78(16/9).

Note: sorry for my english.

[guada 2]

Hello everyone,

What is the interest of a video camera to shoot in HDV and to convert its signal in DV. (example of the SONY HDR-FX1)?
is this a means to advance progressively toward the HD!

It seemed that this model is optimized for the 16/9.
A thing challenges me, the debit being equivalent in the 2 formats. Why adopt not the DV rather than the HDV even though the constructor recommends the HDV cassettes? ( HDV more sophisticated on the algorithm of corrections of mistakes).

Thank you to clarify me these points.

Note:Sorry for my english

[hendrix]

also remember that HDV is IBP-frame based so if you have a error then the frame will freeze for 15 frames or to the next I-frame - now one can argue that you can just put "B-Roll" over the footage but what if you you're shooting a wedding with a HDV camera and it freezes that "The Kiss" and you miss it...not only would you have missed the most important scene but the client will have your <censored>???</censored>

I edit on IMX and Digital Betacam on the Avid Adrenaline and require to have 100% accuracy - i have yet to edit on the HDV so i can't say from personal experience on how accurate it's mpeg2 editing is but would like to try

@guada 2 - your english is fine :)

[guada 2]

Thank you hendrix,

I have other questions:
If the HDV works in a bitrate of 25Mbps and the DV 25Mbps, the difference of quality is it visible?
Can one deduct some that the passage of the HDV in the DV is Lossless in the Mpeg2 format?

Today the bitrate allowed to the general public varies between 25Mbps, 50Mbps for the semi pro and of 100 Mbps for a version "pro."
The gain of resolution gotten would come from an encapsulation with a sort of hybrid codec between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 in the codec present DV.
Where can i find complementary informations?

Other questions:
A few information coming from Panasonic: 25Mbps DV 4:1:1 (DV and DVCPRO ), 50Mbps DV 4:2:2 (DVCPRO50) and now at 100Mbps DV-HD (DVCPRO HD).

The version Pro (100Mbps) rests on what type of DV reference?

[guada 2]

If the DV format gives the dvsd in exit, what delivers the HDV?

Apart from Avid and Final HD cut, what other software permit to recover the HDV information?

Thank you.

[hendrix]

Originally posted by guada 2
Other questions:
A few information coming from Panasonic: 25Mbps DV 4:1:1 (DV and DVCPRO ), 50Mbps DV 4:2:2 (DVCPRO50) and now at 100Mbps DV-HD (DVCPRO HD).

The version Pro (100Mbps) rests on what type of DV reference?
I know that HDV is 4:2:0 which is the same as Pal DV25 and DVD - DVDs also use 4:2:0 so if youre authoring a DVD from a NTSC DV25 source then the resulting DVD will be 4:1:0 since DV25 is 4:1:1 (but you can always run it through avisynth and make it 4:2:2 before encoding to mpeg2 for a nice 4:2:0 DVD).

[auenf]

Originally posted by guada 2
If the DV format gives the dvsd in exit, what delivers the HDV?

Apart from Avid and Final HD cut, what other software permit to recover the HDV information?

Thank you.

not sure about avid, but latest final cut pro HD doesnt support HDV, next version will (due just after tiger), imovie HD supports HDV however.

planning to get fcp5 and imovie hd and tiger and a new g5 when they are out and will try it all out with a HDV cam...

Enf...

[guada 2]

I have make a small typing error, it is well Final CUT but the version Express HD.
It makes it possible to import video HDV since a compatible video camera by the intermediary of a simple Firewire cable.
The video is then transcribed using an intermediate codec offering more flexibility of work to native Mpeg2 flow.

As regards AVID, you are right. :)

Goodbye ;)

[hendrix]

Avid will be HDV friendly soon - Pinnacle Edition, i believe Canopus Edius currently supports native HDV editing as well. Premiere Pro and Vegas 5 supports HDV via plug-ins.

[guada 2]

Thank you for this complement of information.

Goodbye Hendrix ;)

[theReal]

I recently had a few words with a guy shooting some kind of documentary on the new Sony HDV camcorder (the consumer edition). He said the picture quality was absolutely amazing and it was always better than DV, even in fast movement.
I mean it was his opinion and I can't verify it, but he seemed to have good knowledge of cameras and video quality. I was rather astonished to hear such good things about the HDV format from someone like him. I have been reluctant to HDV because of the MPEG2 I/P/B format with only 25Mbps, but maybe one should give it a try (like rent a HDV camcorder for a day and check it out in all kinds of situations).


btw. less than a month ago Pinnacle Systems was bought by Avid http://broadcastengineering.com/news/highlights/avid-pinnacle-mediastream-20050321/ so I don't think Pinnacle Liquid Edition will be around much longer...
:D

[guada 2]

The sale is often related to a partnership of size which is the financial aspect.
Time it is money, but the money cannot buy time.

[hendrix]

well I'm an Avid user...using the Adrenaline and DS Nitris at work and Xpress Pro HD w/mojo at home - i can't wait to see what happens

[guada 2]

I have a question:

It is possible to make of M2tHD to HDV with capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

I know that Cineform can do it with its coder, but I doubt on capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

Thank you in advance.

[guada 2]

Hello,

Somebody can it tell me the format employed by the codec Wavelet of transition from CINEFORM HD.

Thank you in advance.

[Backwoods]

Originally posted by guada 2
I have a question:

It is possible to make of M2tHD to HDV with capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

I know that Cineform can do it with its coder, but I doubt on capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

Thank you in advance.

capDVHS can capture HDV from cameras...if that is what you are asking.

Originally posted by guada 2
Hello,

Somebody can it tell me the format employed by the codec Wavelet of transition from CINEFORM HD.

Thank you in advance.

I'm not too sure what you are asking, but Cineform's codec is an AVI using wavelet. If by format do you mean method?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by guada 2
I have a question:

It is possible to make of M2tHD to HDV with capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

I know that Cineform can do it with its coder, but I doubt on capDVHS 0.3.0.6 E.

Thank you in advance. Have you tried feeding .m2t streams into DGIndex and de-muxing them.... It works here, if that helps!


Cheers