Experiences with HC Encoder

[jdobbs]

I was wondering if any of you have experimented with hank315's new HC encoder and DVD-RB (support was added in the latest Pro version)? While it is slower than CCE and QuEnc, I did some testing (Alien vs Predator) -- it looks very promising, and the sizing is extremely accurate. If you have some free time it would be nice to get some reports on your experiences.

Thanks.

[DD51]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I was wondering if any of you have experimented with hank315's new HC encoder and DVD-RB (support was added in the latest Pro version)? While it is slower than CCE and QuEnc, I did some testing (Alien vs Predator) -- it looks very promising, and the sizing is extremely accurate. If you have some free time it would be nice to get some reports on your experiences.

Thanks.

This is embarrassing but here goes...

I'd love to try but I don't see how to set it up in the setup portion of DVD-RB. There is no HC setup.
I'm using DVD-RB0.78 Pro

[NobbyNobbs]

There is no setup, you have to put the HC encoder in the same folder as RB, and name it HC.exe :)

[DD51]

Originally posted by NobbyNobbs
There is no setup, you have to put the HC encoder in the same folder as RB, and name it HC.exe :)

Thanks for responding...how embarassing...

But now I get the following error message"
Cannot create file "C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\HC.exe". The process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process.

Man this is frustrating.

[jdobbs]

Reboot your computer. Then download the version that supports the "*BATCH" parameter (it prevents having to hit ENTER for each encode). It is located here. (http://hank315.dyndns.org/HC_0.01.zip) You'll have to rename it to HC.EXE.

[DD51]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Reboot your computer. Then download the version that supports the "*BATCH" parameter (it prevents having to hit ENTER for each encode). It is located here. (http://hank315.dyndns.org/HC_0.01.zip) You'll have to rename it to HC.EXE.

Thank you that works great...It now works without any problems.
BTW I had rebooted my comp and also checked in the processes. It would not start!

Anyways...I'm going to backup "24" Season 3 Disc 5. I have already done disc 1-4 with CCE SP with 2 pass.
I'm going to run it tonight and get back with my personal findings.
With CCE SP it went like this:
Phase I: Prepare took 3 minutes
Phase II: took AVG. 105 minutes
Phase III: took AVG. 15 minutes

Will let you know with HC.exe my findings when all is done.
I will specifically be looking for quality differences between the 2 on a frame per frame basis.

Thanks again for the help...

Regards,

[jdobbs]

Thanks! I'm interested to see what you think.

[TheSeeker]

It'll be hard to topple a giant like CCE though. As far as mpeg2 encoders go its pretty much the best engine alive isn't it?

I think I may also give HCEnc a try. See how it stacks up.

[jdobbs]

Oh yeah. CCE is (in my humble opinion) the best on the planet. But HC is free, and never hurts to check out new things.

[dragongodz]

As far as mpeg2 encoders go its pretty much the best engine alive isn't it?
yes possibly but its a fallacy that no other encoder,especially a free one, can approach its quality. for example if you have to do a frame by frame analysis to notice any differences of encodes done by 2 different encoders then its pretty safe to say they are of similar quality in that instance. :D

[TheSeeker]

Ok. I am playing around with HC encoder now. And I setup DVD RB 0.78 in hc mode, set the quality to best and left the quant mat. setting alone. (Default). Finally, I downloaded the version of hc referenced by JDobss in this thread, and renamed it to HC.EXE and put it in the same directory as dvdrb:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91282

My source was a totally unpreprocessed version of Saw. I did a prepare phase and that went fine. But when I hit encode, immediately I get a Runtime Error 5: Invalid Procedure Call or Argument. Not sure why Im getting the error...

Using avisynth 2.55
dgdecode 1.10

EDIT: Ok after some more messing around I found I can manually run the encode by copying the contents of the HC.ini from the D2VAVS directory into the hc.ini that is in the same directory as dvdrb and hc.exe so it seems its something about the way dvdrb is calling on hc.exe that my setup doesnt like.

[hobyho]

I have to say HC is a very good encoder, quality is excellent... especially with low bitrate encodes.

I've done Man On Fire with HC (like a 50% compression due to DTS track), where both CCE and Procoder showed a degree of blocking at two particular places in the movie, whereas HC produces none.

I can't wait for further improvements to it, hank is doing a terrific job, keep up the good work.

[jdobbs]

My source was a totally unpreprocessed version of Saw. I did a prepare phase and that went fine. But when I hit encode, immediately I get a Runtime Error 5: Invalid Procedure Call or Argument. Not sure why Im getting the error... That ain't good. :( I'll see what I can find.

[DD51]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Oh yeah. CCE is (in my humble opinion) the best on the planet. But HC is free, and never hurts to check out new things.

OK! Just ran HC with the following:
Quality/Speed Selection: BEST
Quant Matrix: HC Matrix (default)
Movie ONLY: "24" Season 3 disc 5.
Please note I do ONLY movie backup! Everything else removed!
Here's the log from DVD-RB 0.78.

Transcoding...
-----------------
[13:32:21] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- VTS_01: 955,457 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 64,476 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_02: 922,676 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 63,220 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_03: 990,586 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 63,925 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_04: 991,941 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 65,302 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 54.2%
- Overall Bitrate : 2,929Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,831,280KB
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 3,984/393/2,929 Kbs
[13:35:42] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 3 minutes.
[13:35:42] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
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- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 1
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- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 16
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 1
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- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 0
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- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 18
- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 19
- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 20
[18:56:54] Phase II ENCODING completed in 321 minutes.
[18:56:54] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Rebuilding segment 0 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 1 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 3
- Rebuilding segment 3 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 4
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- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding segment 17 VOBID: 2 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- WARNING: VOB Count Old: 1 New: 2
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
- Processing VTS_02
- Rebuilding segment 0 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 1 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 3
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- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding segment 16 VOBID: 2 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- WARNING: VOB Count Old: 1 New: 2
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_02_0.IFO
- Processing VTS_03
- Rebuilding segment 0 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 1 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 3
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- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding segment 17 VOBID: 2 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- WARNING: VOB Count Old: 1 New: 2
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_03_0.IFO
- Processing VTS_04
- Rebuilding segment 0 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 1 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 3 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
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- Rebuilding segment 19 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 17
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding segment 20 VOBID: 2 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- WARNING: VOB Count Old: 1 New: 2
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_04_0.IFO
Correcting VTS Sectors...
[19:13:29] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 17 minutes.

Done.


First impression:
1. Wow! Can't beleive how long it took! Encoding 321 minutes.
On my computer vs. the other discs that I backed up with CCE, it took 3 times longer to do! I have a pretty fast computer and I would be affraid to see how much time it would take on a say 2.0GHZ comp! With that being said it better be worth it. IMO thats "WAY" too long!

2. Wow! "LESS" MACRO BLOCKS! (This to me is very impressive!) This I'm truly surprised! There are less macroblocks vs. CCE backups! There's alot of fast motion scenes in "24" and I see less macro blocks with HC encoding! Trully impressive to me.
When I looked at previous backups with CCE, You could see more macro blocks in the fast motion scenes.

3. WOW! Quality looks pretty good! I'm very impressed with the picture quality! I mean looking at it on a frame per frame basis against the original source was pretty astonishing to me. The quality to me is very good and very close to the original source! (Man please don't flame me! This is JUST my opinion)

4. Wow! (Purple bars!!!) I can't beleive it's doing purple lines/bars at the bottom right of the picture! (This puzzles me and is unacceptable for me!) I haven't got the slightest clue why this happened or is happening! NEVER seen this before. Is this a bug?

I back up all my movies with CCE SP 2.67 with the following settings:
VBR_Bias =20
Quality Prec =16
VBR_Passes =2

Please take this all with a grain of salt...this is JUST my humble opnion. Thats all!

I will eventually burn this copy and look at the final result on my 7-foot wide screen (NEC HT1000 projector) and will give my opnion again. To me this is a better test! I will however do some test's in fast action scenes on a frame per frame analysis to see more detailed info. I'll let you know what MY EYES see.

Right now I have other things to attend to but will get back to you all if anyone cares.


Sincerest regards,
A Rookie!


:)

[jdobbs]

Thanks for the look! I noticed there is a new version out now that (I believe) fixes the purple bars.

[dragongodz]

I noticed there is a new version out now that (I believe) fixes the purple bars.
yes but it should be noted this is the gui version that has the fix. hank315 does however say
Still working on a new batch version which will have all options of this latest GUI version.
so you will have to wait a while to use a fixed version with DVD-RB.

[TheSeeker]

Aside from the fact that I have to kick off each segment manually right now Im rather impressed with HC as an Encoder. The output video looks darn nice, I love the easy configurability (just paste options into .ini) I also like that you can specify custom quanti mats. (again in the .ini). Its all so sleek and simple and the quality looks darn nice. I havent noticed the purple bars on the batch version but maybe I missed them somehow? though i dont see how thats possible. Once I get this to work with DVD RB, I may have a nice alternative to CCE, and Procoder. Im anxious to see how it does with heavily compressed anime. As that is a nightmare for any encoder.

[manolito]

The thing with with the colored bars on one side of the encode was discovered by ebotron (see the HC thread under "Other MPEG encoders"). It seems that it is not present in PAL and also depends on the frame resolution. I never had this problem, but I live in PAL country of course.

If jdobbs implementation for using HC does not work for you, there still is my little HC_CLI utility which also works with earlier versions of DVD-RB. Have a look here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89440&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Like jdobbs' implementation HC_CLI also does not work with the GUI versions of HC. You need the batch enabled "non-GUI" version.


Cheers
manolito

[TheSeeker]

@Manolito

I will give your utility a try. What is the newest version of RB that works with it?

[manolito]

@TheSeeker
HC_CLI works with any application that supports QuEnc. So even ancient versions of RB should work.

All that HC_CLI does is intercept the QuEnc command line arguments, pick only the ones that are essential, convert the format as required, write a new HC.INI file and call HC.EXE. Nothing fancy...

Just keep in mind that HC_CLI was written before Hank315 published the GUI versions of HC, so these versions (which do not support batch encodes or templates) will not work.

Cheers
manolito

[TheSeeker]

Sweet. It looks like that should do the trick. I will give 'er a try when I get home from work. I will be using the newest RB (0.78) can I expect this to work fine with hc_cli as long as i make sure and use it in QuEnc mode?

[DD51]

Originally posted by DD51
I will eventually burn this copy and look at the final result on my 7-foot wide screen (NEC HT1000 projector) and will give my opnion again. To me this is a better test! I will however do some test's in fast action scenes on a frame per frame analysis to see more detailed info. I'll let you know what MY EYES see.:)

Well I did burn it and have been playing with the end result on my big screen and "must say" for a free encoder the picture quality is very very good (Awesome). I have no complaints aside the purple lines that it did at the bottom right! I had alot of difficulty seeing any macroblocks anywhere! Even looking at some fire scenes there were NO blocks! Again this is just me but the picture quality is Awesome.

My one BIG complaint is how slow the encoding process is! For me this won't do it for me. The speed of encoding is unacceptable to me.
If futur versions increase the speed, then this is a true winner for me!
I'll be waiting for futur updates and will keep a close eye on this little program. This is the best freeware encoder I have ever scene soo far!
Congrats to the author.

Sincerest regards,

[TheSeeker]

@DD51

What kind of processor do you have? Because I think that you can get a very nice speed boost if your Proc. support SSE2 or SSE3 instructions. But if you have a little bit older AMD then your proc supports neither and you could see some slow speeds.. But on my AMD64 the speeds werent all that bad. I mean they werent as good as CCE but I wouldnt say they were super slow either. I think Procoder is slower than HC.

[onesoul]

Hi,

At the early stages of DVD-RB I posted here about the "Robin Williams Live on Broadway" Pal Interlaced DVD backup, then I used CCE 2.67.00.27 and the outcome was awful (average bitrate of ~4300 kbs), after many different settings (bias, IQP, matrixes, etc, I think the only I thing I didn't tried was encoding it as progressive but I doubt it would be any useful), I had just given up trying backing up interlaced content in CCE. Even transcoding programs like Dvdshrink or recode are better with interlaced content. (Just have to add that encoded progressive content with CCE looks great)

I read procoder was very good with interlaced content but I didn't try it yet (going to sometime). I didn't try quenc yet too but I am eager to try it also (0.54 still produces better quality but less accurate on refraining high bitrate, right?)

Now I tried dvd-rb 0.78 with HC to backup the same DVD and from my early impressions I couldn't spot differences between the HC encoded and original. I am so amazingly surprised with the hank315's HC encoder, it may well be my all purpose encoder. I will still do some frame to frame comparison just for the sake of it. The encoding took 323 minutes but I don't mind waiting for such a good output (It's done over the night anyway).

The average bitrate was again ~4300kbs, chose HC best quality and matrix was HC default. All other settings were chose by the mighty jdobbs's DVD-RB, (interlaced, gop, etc).

I put a couple of questions though:
- The close all gops setting is not chosen, when does it need to be applied?
- GOP settings were 12 2, pal interlaced content could benefit with gop 15? (as default interlaced NTSC setting by DVD-RB), what about autogop?
- It's good to have different matrix options but the problem is I don't know when to use them, is one of them better with interlaced content? If so, tell me please :)

Cheers

[edeus]

I dont understand, wouldnt macroblocks be not visible in CCE anyway?

Using HC, is it very developed or in a testing phase? It sounds so promising but CCE gives such good quality already, i want a reason to go to HC.

If DVD-RB recommends it maybe I'll go for it then :)

Btw could it have been that the encoders way back were crap compared to todays ones, and so when we recompress we are noticing far superior results. When we try newer dvd's, it is less impressive?

[jdobbs]

I'm certainly not suggesting anyone switch from CCE to HC. I just think it is always good to get a range of opinions on a new encoder. The reason DVD-RB has multiple encoders listed is so people can choose...

[DD51]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
@DD51

What kind of processor do you have? Because I think that you can get a very nice speed boost if your Proc. support SSE2 or SSE3 instructions. But if you have a little bit older AMD then your proc supports neither and you could see some slow speeds.. But on my AMD64 the speeds werent all that bad. I mean they werent as good as CCE but I wouldnt say they were super slow either. I think Procoder is slower than HC.

@TheSeeker,
Here are my Computer specs.

P4C800-E Deluxe - MB Version, 2.00
Bios Version 1021 beta6
P4 3.0C GHz
OC'd to 3.554GHZ 948 FSB
Kingston memory kit: PC3200 @ 474MHZ Dual CH enabled
2 Sata drives 120GB each
Video Card: MSI 6800GT 256MB
Operating System : Win XP Pro SP2
Instructions: MMX, SSE, SSE2 (I don't have SSE3)

Yes I love to overclock! It makes a big difference.

All I can tell you is that I redid the Disc 5 with CCE SP 2.67 and
it took 104 minutes to encode vs. 321 minutes with HC. BUT! The quality of HC is better IMHO.



Update: After redoing My disc 5 with CCE...IMHO HC looks better! HC's encode produced "LESS" macroblocks compared to CCE encode.

[onesoul]

After hearing some opinions about cce and interlaced content I decided to make more tests, well the output isn't so bad as I have said before, I am not sure what went wrong on my earlier tests. I read on dvd-rb file that the handling of ecl file with 2.67.00.27 was fixed at 0.60. On my earlier tests I used an older version, I have no idea if could be it, but I am suspecting that the bad output was due to some filter.

I apologize for providing bad information before.

Now I have done more testing with no filtering at all! But actually I think still cce wasn't the best. I am going to upload some m2v files somewhere later.

@jdobbs
Is the latest Quenc 0.59 b2 suported? Could you check if settings are getting selected right? I noticed a problem when you select qlb matrix. Also on mpeg2 settings of quenc it isnt checked top field first but that I suspect it is the way it should be?
And I noticed the dc precision is set at 8, on other encoders dvd-rb automatically sets to 9, why?

[jdobbs]

Yes QuEnc 0.59B2 is supported. I'll take a look at the qlb problem. I wouldn't worry about the top field setting. Since the file is being reencoded that really doesn't matter.

[thomasphoenix]

Hi Jdobbs,
I tested the Hc encoder , the version u recommended,on Spiderman2 at 65% compression,at quality setting good,I also encoded with cce 2.70.02 ,with OPV.
I didnt get any purple corners everything was ok,And to answer many doubts about the speed ,you have to disable hyperthreading for HC to encode with full cpu load otherwise it uses only one thread of the multithread ie 50%.so expect to gain almost 40% speed with hyperthread disabled.The Quality is extremely good,It compares very well with CCE,Though I will not say its better,in some small things, maybe CCE seems to be a teeny weeny bit sharper,(or maybe im imagining it ,looking too hard).

[archaeo]

it would be nice to see some side by side image captures...

[hank315]

Just some remarks...

It's good to hear people seem to like the quality of HC, some don't like the speed.
Goal was to backup a DVD in good quality, even a 3 hour movie, in about 2 * real time using my own hardware using the best settings.
I'm using a P4 3.2 GHz, Prescott core which can do SSE3 and it can do a 3 hour movie in 6 hours.
In future releases I will try to speed it up while keeping the same quality, just don't know yet if that's possible.
The speed gain using SSE2 instead of MMX is just about 5%, using SSE3 may speed it up by approx. 20% over SSE2, SSE3 is able to load unaligned memory very fast.

Development isn't over yet, still have a lot of ideas of improving it, especially at low bitrates.

About the flashing color error, it will show if (hor.res * vert.res)/1024 isn't a whole number.

ATM I'm finishing a new batch version which will take arguments but can also use the ini file.
The encoding engine will be exactly the same as the latest GUI version.

Also did some testing:
1) LOTR - Fellowship of the Ring - PAL 720*576
encoding time 5.5 hours, final DVD size 4.28 GB

2) Matrix - Reloaded - PAL 720*576
encoding time 5 hours, final DVD size 4.29 GB

All done with *PROFILE BEST
And the final quality, just what the profile says :D :D

[TheSeeker]

Just wondering.... Any plan to support 3DNow! optimizations for AMD users?

[jdobbs]

About the flashing color error, it will show if (hor.res * vert.res)/1024 isn't a whole number. That's really a problem for NTSC -- since it's 720 x 480. Can it be fixed?

[hank315]

That's really a problem for NTSC -- since it's 720 x 480. Can it be fixed?It's already fixed in the new 0.12 GUI version.
It is still in the old CLI version but will ofcourse also be fixed in the new batch version, was just a stupid programming error :mad:

[jdobbs]

Well, just read a few of the pages on this forum and you'll see I know that feeling... :eek:

[quantum]

I haven't posted in ages, but I feel compelled to for this.

Keep up the great work Hank. Getting results that are competitive with CCE is truly an achievement. Going even slightly farther is more than an eyebrow raiser. I'll be looking forward to the continuing development.

I'll throw my 2 cents in and say do what you need to do with regards to time. I'll choose a slower encode for better results every time. If someone wants it faster, then CCE or DVDShrink is available.

[dragongodz]

I'll choose a slower encode for better results every time.
i agree. infact HC's second pass may be slightly slower in the future ,depending on things i wont discuss here, for the sake of possibly consistantly better quality, will only happen if hank315 finds the time to implament it and if it proves better of course. maybe as an option even. there is so much going on behind the scenes to try and improve this encoder that people do not know. :D

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by quantum
I haven't posted in ages, but I feel compelled to for this. Hey! quantum! Dude. Glad to see you're still alive and kickin'

[thomasphoenix]

Dear Hank,
Great Job,Can u add hyperthread support ,since I can test CCe and Hc without changing bios settings each time,like im doing now.

[DD51]

Originally posted by hank315
It's already fixed in the new 0.12 GUI version.
It is still in the old CLI version but will ofcourse also be fixed in the new batch version, was just a stupid programming error :mad:

Hank315,
I can't wait to try the fixed batch version. May I ask when will it be available? Congrats on your new project. I'm impressed with the quality!

About the speed issue.
Please this is JMO!

What I don't like about slow encoders is that they beat the shxx out of the CPU's. These encoders do quit a number on processors. They push CPU's to the MAX! I don't think running a CPU at 100% for 5 hours + straight on several occassions can be good. That's my worry about slow encoders!:confused:
Just my 2 cents worth.:confused:

[onesoul]

Nice to hear such goods things about HC which is already great!

I said before I would put m2v files from my tests, I din't yet, I was hoping someone could show some webspace where I could send around 70mb, my isp provider doesn't offer me enough space.

But I have put a screenshot comparison online here (http://pwp.netcabo.pt/onesoul/enctest.html), it will take some time to load though (around 4mb).

I gave some opinions there. Feel free to do the same (I am a just a noob speaking) :)

@jdobbs
From the tests I have made, quenc seemed to me to produce better results (at least with this setup) with dc precision of 9 (over the default 8).

[onesoul]

Originally posted by DD51
What I don't like about slow encoders is that they beat the shxx out of the CPU's. These encoders do quit a number on processors. They push CPU's to the MAX! I don't think running a CPU at 100% for 5 hours + straight on several occassions can be good. That's my worry about slow encoders!:confused: Lol, are u kiddin? CPU's are made to live at max 24/7, of course it needs to have good heatsink, and a good power supply along a ups helps too.

Just to you know, my computer is always 24/7 on at 100% load running united devices and prime95 (from mersenne.org).

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by onesoul
@jdobbs
From the tests I have made, quenc seemed to me to produce better results (at least with this setup) with dc precision of 9 (over the default 8). Hmmm... currently I'm not forcing dc precision to any value -- just leaving it at the default. Maybe I should add it as a choice on the QuEnc setup.

[DK]

having done some conversion before with hc_enc i used the latest rb version now with two titles so far and the result is:

awesome ;)

keep up the great work, hanc!



one more time the gop length question came to my mind, when looking at the ini files

hc states 15, rb seems to set 12 again

will a change to the rb.ini after preparation work?

[jdobbs]

You can change the rebuilder.ecl file after prep. An HC.INI is generated from that during encode. But as always, I recommend 12 for PAL, 12 for NTSC/FILM, and 15 only for NTSC interlaced. I believe that's also the way the studios do it most of the time.

[dragongodz]

What I don't like about slow encoders is that they beat the shxx out of the CPU's. These encoders do quit a number on processors. They push CPU's to the MAX! I don't think running a CPU at 100% for 5 hours + straight on several occassions can be good. That's my worry about slow encoders!
sorry but i find that amussing after you have said
P4 3.0C GHz
OC'd to 3.554GHZ 948 FSB
Yes I love to overclock! It makes a big difference.
and you dont think you are stressing your cpu there ? :D

also did you turn off HT to compare the speed as thomasphoenix suggested ?

[onesoul]

Originally posted by onesoul
I said before I would put m2v files from my tests, I din't yet, I was hoping someone could show some webspace where I could send around 70mb, my isp provider doesn't offer me enough space.

But I have put a screenshot comparison online here (http://pwp.netcabo.pt/onesoul/enctest.html), it will take some time to load though (around 4mb).
I have managed to put on my webspace the original m2v file:

http://pwp.netcabo.pt/onesoul/enctest/original.zip (~22mb)

I can try put the encoded files online too, if it's needed.

[manolito]

Originally posted by jdobbs
You can change the rebuilder.ecl file after prep. An HC.INI is generated from that during encode. But as always, I recommend 12 for PAL, 12 for NTSC/FILM, and 15 only for NTSC interlaced. I believe that's also the way the studios do it most of the time.
Well, different users may have different needs. For very low bitrates a longer GOP will improve compressibility.

Also HC has an "AutoGOP" mode which is supposed to make some intelligent assumptions about the optimal GOP length and adjust it accordingly. But if RB always issues a GOP command, this AutoGOP mode will be overridden. IMO Rebuilder should support this Auto mode, too.

Cheers
manolito

[jdobbs]

Noted. Unfortunately most users of DVD-RB don't know (or care) what a GOP. I'm trying to avoid adding more-and-more-and-more options that confuse people. It's getting hard... my fear is that the "One Click" folks for whom it is primarily written are being overruled by the experts. I don't want to make DVD-RB as complicated as some of the other CCE methods...

Example: Have you ever used one of the default FFMPEG encoders? Most people haven't. It's mainly because the 9 million options are intimidating.

[DD51]

Originally posted by dragongodz
sorry but i find that amussing after you have said.
I'm glad I gave some people a chuckle. Laughing is very important for the state of mind.

quote from me:P4 3.0C GHz
OC'd to 3.554GHZ 948 FSB
Yes I love to overclock! It makes a big difference.

Originally posted by dragongodz
and you dont think you are stressing your cpu there ?
That's exactly the reason why it worries me. I should've mentioned that I love speed. I'm just trying to maximize the speed of my computer. This is the only program I use that stresses my CPU aside from gaming. My comp. was built with gaming in mind.

Originally posted by dragongodz
also did you turn off HT to compare the speed as thomasphoenix suggested ?

No I have not...I'd rather wait for the batch fix version and then test it out. To be honest I don't think I might. I don't like the fact that I would have to change my settings in the bios everytime:eek:

Regards,

[quantum]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Hey! quantum! Dude. Glad to see you're still alive and kickin' I'm alive. Don't know about kickin. Work.. work.. sleep.. back to work.. repeat. :-)

Originally posted by jdobbs
I'm trying to avoid adding more-and-more-and-more options that confuse people.
I agree, but you're too clever to let that happen. You already have things organized to prevent it with the advanced settings screen. Even better, if the option is truly obscure, put it in the rebuilder.ini which will totally hide it from the one clickers and still be accessible to the experts.

Then someone can write an add-on program to make a GUI for your INI file. Or has that been done alreay? :-)

[DK]

of course it is a good idea to keep rb as simple as possible in order not to confuse not too advanced users

on the other hand quite a few of those people who prefer encoder ala cce, procoder, quenc, hc_enc etc over transcoder might like to be able to *tweak* the settings every now and then

i for one would love to find a gop length option in rb some time ;)

[dragongodz]

No I have not...I'd rather wait for the batch fix version and then test it out. To be honest I don't think I might.
then HC couldnt even use 100% of your cpu if it wanted to. if the cpu usage is going up to 100% then its other things running using the other pseudo cpu(HT cpu cycles).

from what i understand CCE is HT aware so is using every bit of cpu it can so of course its way faster.

I don't like the fact that I would have to change my settings in the bios everytime
no i just meant change it the once to see the speed difference. i am sure hank315 will try to implament threading at some point in the future. its just not a high priority in the early stages of most programs.

[hank315]

About GOP length...

Unfortunately most users of DVD-RB don't know (or care) what a GOP is.I agree with jdobbs, and why should they, the only thing most people want is a good DVD backup.

But for those who are really interested:
A GOP is Group Of Pictures which starts with an I frame.
How long can a GOP be?
Simple, you can do a whole movie within one GOP.
Ofcourse there a lot of other limitations, chapters, scene changes, DVD-playback/skipping etc.
But there's also an ugly thing in MPEG called IDCT mismatch.
This may cause an error propagation between the encoder and the decoder.
That's one of the reasons the MPEG guys decided to limit the GOP length to 15/18 for PAL/NTSC. (frame based)
In fact this is a *very short* GOP length but a standard is a standard...
Doing a DVD backup, which means compressing the video, would benefit from a longer GOP but an encoder should *never* insert a GOP which is not DVD compliant.
So choosing a GOP of 12-2 is a good choice if the encoder sometimes "overshoots" the prescribed GOP length.

For HC this doesn't apply, the autogop or gop 15-2 settings will never insert a GOP longer than 15.
HC will produce best quality with the autogop option and it will always be DVD compliant for PAL and NTSC.

[DD51]

Originally posted by dragongodz

no i just meant change it the once to see the speed difference. i am sure hank315 will try to implament threading at some point in the future. its just not a high priority in the early stages of most programs.

I will try it and let you know the difference in speed. Thanks. BTW my cpu during encoding with HC never goes past 50%. I'm sure with HT turned off it should make a good difference in speed.
Regarding HT, I'm sure it wouldn't be a priority right now for Hank315. I totally understand.
Thanks for all your help.

Kind regards,

[DMagic1]

My experience with HC compared to CCE using RB are ok but could be better.

I've done two projects and get the purple line on both.
My first project was the very long Green Mile. Average bitrate was only about 2900.
CCE had very visible blocks in several places. HC also had blocks but they were blurred and therefore seem less visible.
The overall picture from HC seems softer and less sharp compared to CCE. Its hard to tell with I prefer on this project. The softer picture seems to take away from the whole movie.

The other project wasn't a complete movie. It was only a couple of cells from Taxi. I don't remember the bitrate but it was only about 92% compression. The softer picture was there again. One shot that stands out is how there where two razer bumps on a guys face. The CCE output allowed you to see them. The HC output blurred them out.

I'm planning a project tonight with average bitrate of 3800. CCE is going right now, HC will be later.

[dragongodz]

BTW my cpu during encoding with HC never goes past 50%.
which makes your fears that HC taking longer is stressing your cpu more incorrect then doesnt it ? ;)

I've done two projects and get the purple line on both.
i am sure you have already read the HC thread about this being fixed. so should not be an issue when hank315 releases a new version.

The overall picture from HC seems softer and less sharp compared to CCE.
this may be improved later. its probably to do with something hank315 and i have already discussed. cant say anymore, probably shouldnt have said that even. :D

[DMagic1]

Thats good to hear.

[Vanderlow]

Originally posted by dragongodz



this may be improved later. its probably to do with something hank315 and i have already discussed. cant say anymore, probably shouldnt have said that even. :D

Why? this is a free encoder, no?

[dragongodz]

Why? this is a free encoder, no?
and thats got what to do with it ?
we are talking about the way the encoder does and doesnt do things internally. most people wouldnt be interested to hear the fine details and/or discussions on how this should be changed. or possibly worse a heap of people could all have an opinion.
free does not mean you have some sort of right to know everything thats going on under the hood. :sly:

[Vanderlow]

Good answer!

[Pasqui]

hank315 released a new version:
Just put the new batch version online, new manual included.

get it at: http://hank315.dyndns.org/HCbatch_012.zip

Changelog:
- encoding engine same as GUI version
- runs in a small window, showing statistics
- can use ini file and parameters

It seems that the command line parameters were changed: DVD-RB 0.79 doesn't work. :(
I hope jdobbs will release a new version soon ! :D

[hank315]

It seems that the command line parameters were changed: DVD-RB 0.79 doesn't work.It's easy to make it work.
Set DVD-RB to Quenc mode and point it to the HCbatch exe.
Create a HC.ini file in the same directory as the HCbatch exe:

*profile best
*matrix qlb
*logfile <full pathname> --> not really necessary

That should work (for the time being), tested it last night...

[happycase]

I'm just curious, are there any plans to make HC Encoder support for DVD-RB available to the general public, or is it going to remain the kind of thing that only a donation will get you?

[Ebobtron]

Originally posted by happycase
I'm just curious, are there any plans to make HC Encoder support for DVD-RB available to the general public, or is it going to remain the kind of thing that only a donation will get you?

That was just done; I am very confused by your remark. Download HCBatch and then follow the instructions above your post. If you cannot make it work, ask for help. I believe that Hank's latest was written just for programs like RB.

[Vanderlow]

I just finish a movie (Seabiscuit) and I use 78 general release and created the HC.ini file as Hank suggest and repointed it using the QuEnc mode. HC has it own folder. Well it prepared it and it started encoding it with the current batch HC.exe, but in the middle of encoding the movie on segment 17 (out of 31) it gave me an error saying v**1017 shows completed but no .M2V file exists. I then clicked OK and it went on to encode the rest of the movie (5 hours in total). I then Rebuild it and at the end it gave another error saying "error in UpdateIFO:Shouldn't happen". The movie was created of sorts, 4.28GB, but was jerky and the progress bar on PowerDVD will not go to the end of the movie, so it's kind of screwed up. The HC executeable did seem to work though. What do you think I went wrong? TIA

My HC.ini is:

*matrix qlb
*profile best
*logfile C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\HC\test.log

[johnnyquid]

The hc.ini file must also include:

*maxbitrate 9000

RB does not specify the max bitrate when -novbr is specified.

[Vanderlow]

So add that line and that should do it then uh?

so my HC.ini looks like this now:

*maxbitrate 9000
*matrix qlb
*profile best
*logfile C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\HC\test.log

I want to make sure I get it right so I don't spend another 5 hours! :)


ADD ON to my post. Here's a picture of the HC executable on first try with the error and I think it does have max bitrate of 9000 (even with it not in the ini file).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Vanderlow/hc1.jpg

Paste of the log after the errored 1017 segment, since it doesn't show up in the log:

==================================================
==================================================

--------------------------------------------
| HCbatch - MPEG2 encoder - rel. 0.12 beta |
--------------------------------------------

input: c:\rebuilder work folder\d2vavs\v01001700001018.avs
output: c:\rebuilder work folder\d2vavs\v01001700001018.m2v

--------------------
| encoder settings |
--------------------

profile: BEST
frames: 1 9029
framerate: 23.98
aspect ratio: 16:9
bitrate Kb/s: 4435
max. bitrate Kb/s: 9000
closed gops: no
VBV check: yes
scene change det.: yes
interlaced: no
goplen,B-pic: AUTO
dc_precision: 9
scan method: ZIGZAG
time code: 0 0 0 0
CPU: MMX/SSE
matrix: QLB

--------------------
| source stats |
--------------------

nr. of frames in source: 9029
width*height: 720*480
fps: 23.98
nr. of frames to encode: 9029
frames to encode: 1 - 9029

---------------------
| encoding - pass 1 |
---------------------

pass 1 encoding time: 0:14:10 (850 s)
average fps: 10.6

--------------------------------
| encoding - intermediate pass |
--------------------------------

bitrate set to: 4435000 b/s
est. outfile length: 203876 kB
intermediate encoding time: 0.0 s

---------------------
| encoding - pass 2 |
---------------------

pass 2 encoding time: 0:04:16 (256 s)
average fps: 35.3

------------------
| encoding stats |
------------------

total encoding time: 0:18:26 (1106 s)

intra matrix used
8 16 19 22 26 27 29 34
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 37
19 22 26 27 29 34 37 39
22 22 26 27 29 34 38 42
22 26 27 29 32 36 40 50
26 27 29 32 36 40 50 61
26 27 29 35 40 50 59 73
27 29 35 40 50 59 73 87

non-intra matrix used
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 25
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 26
19 20 21 22 23 24 26 28
20 21 22 23 25 26 28 29
21 22 23 24 26 28 29 31
22 23 24 26 28 29 31 32
23 24 25 28 29 31 32 34

nr. of gops: 678
nr. of frames: 9029
nr. of I-frames: 678
nr. of P-frames: 3177
nr. of B-frames: 5174
average quant (non linear): 4.522
VBV underflows detected: 0
VBV underflows fixed: 0
minimum bitrate: 920
maximum bitrate: 8979
average bitrate: 4434

[hank315]

@Vanderlow
Looking at your pic. it shows the right arguments were passed to the encoder, look at the upper left window.
The stats in the logfile also look good, max bitrate was 8979 (9000 set) average bitrate was 4434 (4435 set)
About the missing m2v file, seems DVD-RB never started the encode because there's no logging at all.
Try to create that missing segment with the GUI version.
I'm just curious, are there any plans to make HC Encoder support for DVD-RB available to the general public, or is it going to remain the kind of thing that only a donation will get you?There's support for HC in the latest Pro versions but if it becomes available to the general public is jdobbs decision.

[Vanderlow]

Where do I find the GUI version?

[hank315]

It's in the download section of Doom9, you can also use the batch version to create the missing part but with the GUI its easier, just set the input to the avs file in the d2vavs directory.

[quantum]

I got the same error "shows completed but no .M2V file exists". It was a 1 frame encode:

#------------------
# AVS File Created by DVD Rebuilder
# VOBID:05, CELLID:07
#------------------
mpeg2source("M:\MOVIE_OUT\WAW1_HC\D2VAVS\V01.D2V")
trim(94645,94645)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

[johnnyquid]

See my post above. The hc.ini file must also include:

*maxbitrate 9000

When there are not many frames, I believe RB tells Quenc to do a 1 pass encode CBR encode. When this happens, no -maxbitrate command is in the command line sent to HC. HC ignores the request to do a 1 pass CBR encode (it still wants to do a 2 pass VBR) but with the no maxbitrate specified in the hc.ini file or the command line, HC errors out thus creating the no .M2V message.

[hank315]

Will run a test with it later, also got that error on a 1 frame segment.
If DVD-RB not sets the maxbitrate HC will fail, it needs bitrate and maxbitrate set.
BTW. does HC starts encoding the 1 frame segment when you add the *maxbitrate 9000 command?

[johnnyquid]

I have had 1 frame cells encode successfully after adding "*maxbitrate 9000" in hc.ini file.

[happycase]

Ok, thanks Ebotron and hank315. I must have misread DVD-RBs changelog.

[jdobbs]

Hank315 was working on adding the QuEnc compatible command lines, so I knew it would work with the freeware version of DVD-RB when he finished. The reason I've created a special HC option in the Pro version is so it can take advantage of DVD-RB's Pro features like custom matrices for different bitrates, GOP settings, and DC Precision. In future versions DVD-RB will do more intelligent selection of settings for you.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by hank315
Will run a test with it later, also got that error on a 1 frame segment.
If DVD-RB not sets the maxbitrate HC will fail, it needs bitrate and maxbitrate set.
BTW. does HC starts encoding the 1 frame segment when you add the *maxbitrate 9000 command? If you are going through the QuEnc interface, DVD-RB sets the maximum bitrate (via the command line) on every encode.

[jdobbs]

Whoops I have to correct myself. When there is a single frame, DVD-RB sets QuEnc to CBR, so there would be no "Maximum" bitrate. I'll add it to the command line in the next version (assuming it doesn't affect QuEnc). You really don't want to add it directly to the HC.INI file because the maximum bitrate changes depending upon the number of audio streams in use -- and when it makes it to the DVD you might get stutter from overshooting the DVD maximum. If you do set it in the meantime I'd recommend something lower than 9000 -- maybe 8000.

[onesoul]

jdobbs, I am guessing that you haven't seen this, but when encoding an interlaced source, the alternate scan setting doesn't get checked and bff is selected for some strange reason, which is weird because by default HC would automatically select alternate scan and tff flag when interlaced setting is provided at hc.ini file.

About hc support:
You mean hc.exe is to be specified at setup on quenc target with the next versions of dvd-rb?

edit: Another question: Where does this maximum bitrate is specified at rebuilder.ecl, is it this "vbr_brate_max=7464", if so i only get max bitrate of 9000 at hc and no other value.

[jdobbs]

If you are using HC.EXE with the Pro version, the parameters are all set in the INI file. I never set alternate encoding because the HC document says that it is automatically selected when you set *INTERLACED.

HC support will continue to be inherent in Pro versions of DVD-RB and you wouldn't need to use QUENC settings.

You can use HCBATCH_012.EXE with the freeware version by specifying pointing to it in the QuEnc path.

Good catch on the Maxbitrate. I just went back and looked and I found a bug that was causing "*MAXBITRATE" to always be 9000Kbs in both HC and QUENC... I'll fix that for v0.80.

[Vanderlow]

Yeah I just started over and changed my HC.ini file to read 8000 and when I manual call up the HC exe it reads 8000 for maxbitrate, but when called up thru Rebuilder it reads 9000. Guess it will be fixed.

[hank315]

If you are using HC.EXE with the Pro version, the parameters are all set in the INI file. I never set alternate encoding because the HC document says that it is automatically selected when you set *INTERLACED.And that should work :)
But just discovered if the interlaced is set using arguments the alt scan is not set, will correct that.

But still have my doubts, if the source is progressive and encoding is set to interlaced IMHO the scanning flag should be zigzag :confused:

[onesoul]

Originally posted by hank315
And that should work :)
But just discovered if the interlaced is set using arguments the alt scan is not set, will correct that.That's what I was trying to point out to jdobbs :)
But still have my doubts, if the source is progressive and encoding is set to interlaced IMHO the scanning flag should be zigzag :confused: Like it was said on other thread it is not going to do major difference doing that but if you disable interlaced with dvd-rb I believe it will encode as progressive and zigzag.

Also I'd like to point out that hc 0.012 batch undersized comparing to hc 0.01 batch, I'll post more details on hc thread.

[onesoul]

Originally posted by jdobbs
HC support will continue to be inherent in Pro versions of DVD-RB and you wouldn't need to use QUENC settings. I'm not sure you have seen a post before by someone else but just in case I point out again that dvd-rb 0.79 pro isn't working with latest hc .012 batch. Hc gives an error of some argument not specified. That's why I used the quenc path to try new hc, which wouldn't have the ini file you mentioned.

Sorry for the headaches :(

[quantum]

Originally posted by onesoul
I'm not sure you have seen a post before by someone else but just in case I point out again that dvd-rb 0.79 pro isn't working with latest hc .012 batch. Hc gives an error of some argument not I noticed this too. I'm glad you pointed this out since I was getting confused.

[jdobbs]

It doesn't work because a number of the HC parameters have changed:

1. Bitrates are specified in Kbs now... the old batch used full numbers.

2. The matrix inputs have changed.

3. The aspect ratio settings have changed (although it may take both).

4. The INI file used to read from the "current" directory... now the location has to be specified with the -ini argument.

There's more... but in short, you'll have to wait until v0.80 comes out in the next few days to use the new HCBATCH_012.EXE for encoding. The alternative, of course, is to use it with the QuEnc path as was already discussed.

HC is new software so you have to expect some changes. But it's good so I'll keep up.

[dragongodz]

a number of the HC parameters have changed:
yep and probably wont be the last time. :)
people have to remember the changes that QuEnc has gone through with its CLI commands aswell.
these are evolving programs in early stages so are prone to some change in things like commands etc. it will settle down eventually. :)

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by hank315
But still have my doubts, if the source is progressive and encoding is set to interlaced IMHO the scanning flag should be zigzag :confused: DVD-RB never sets a progressive source to interlaced. It does have the ability though to send sources that were previously flagged as interlaced to be encoded as progressive. That's to cover some reported PAL sources that are said to be improperly flagged.

[samuelal]

jdobbs, My sincere gratitude for your work on the entire DVD-RB project!

I was very happy to see on this particular thread that the latest HC batch version will be supported with the next v0.80 release and even more excited to see that you've embarked on a massive-scale bug-hunt in preparation for the big v1.00 release!

Thank you!!! :)

If this was a wrong place to post this 'thank you', my apologies, it only seemed right.

[jdobbs]

:cool:

[Vanderlow]

So I was able to encode with the latest batch HC and the freeware version of dvd rebuilder (.78). The movie looked good. The time was 5 1/2 hours. I had nothing to compare it to except the original, but they seem close. The image came to 3.28GB (on two encodes).

[jdobbs]

@vanderlow

I think something went wrong. In every encode I've done with HC I have gotten 4.32GB.

[Vanderlow]

Originally posted by jdobbs
@vanderlow

I think something went wrong. In every encode I've done with HC I have gotten 4.32GB.

But is that with the non-pro version setup per Hank's directions?

[dragongodz]

just so its clear, HC can undersize and it has been discussed in the HC thread. an easy example is to use a target bitrate of 2000 and a max bitrate of 3000 for a clip. HC will not(atleast in the tests we have done) hit the 2000 but be under it. the amount under may be small or may be larger depending on the clip. increase the max bitrate to 8000(for example) however and the target rate is hit or extremely close ,including the clips that were well undersized before.

the rate control is on the list of things hank315 has said he will be looking in to improving. just takes time. :)

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Vanderlow
But is that with the non-pro version setup per Hank's directions? No, that's using the Pro version.

[TheSeeker]

Just so Im clear. All I have to do to make HC work is put the HC.exe (the batch enabled one that is 560kb) into the same folder as rebuilder.exe right? Because every time I try to use it I get a Run time error 5 invalid procedure call or argument, every time I hit Encode after the prepare phase.

[DMagic1]

You need the hc.ini file also.

[jdobbs]

@TheSeeker

If you're talking about the Pro version, yes. In the Pro version you don't need the HC.INI file -- DVD-RB creates it in the working directory.

[SCSI]

What quenc options in DVD-RB (free) should I use when pointing to HCbatch? Does the settings in the HC.ini the ones used instead of the quenc settings?

[DMagic1]

Originally posted by jdobbs
@TheSeeker

If you're talking about the Pro version, yes. In the Pro version you don't need the HC.INI file -- DVD-RB creates it in the working directory.
Oh really it create one if one isn't there? Whats the default matrix when RB creates the hc.ini?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by SCSI
What quenc options in DVD-RB (free) should I use when pointing to HCbatch? Does the settings in the HC.ini the ones used instead of the quenc settings? The ones on the command line are covered... but you'll need an INI to cover the ones that aren't.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DMagic1
Oh really it create one if one isn't there? Whats the default matrix when RB creates the hc.ini? It doesn't create a "*MATRIX" entry in the INI and lets HC use its default. If, though, you have a matrix other than "Encoder Default" selected under the new advanced options -- it will use the one you have selected.

[m3taPT]

Although it is a fabulous work so far, (don't take me wrong) but compared to a 5 or 7 pass CCE encoding (that's my usual standard) on a dual 2.4 Xeon, it is extremely slow, even though it makes several passes less.

Is multiprocessor / multithreading support in the works?

[TCrowe]

I did an HC encode last night with .80 Pro RB and everything looks nice. Just starting the comparison to the original but the troubling part is the final output was only 3.87 GB. I just read in an earlier post in this thread that someone else had a similar experience.

Anyone else coming up short on the final output?



Here is the log from the test:

[23:05:09] One Click encoding activated...
-----------------
[23:05:09] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- HC encoder selected
- "Half-D1/Half Space for Extras" mode is enabled.
- "Steal Space from Extras" mode is enabled.
- VTS_01: 3,083,385 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 164,723 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 74.4%
- Overall Bitrate : 4,663Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,910,644KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = .0%
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 5,261/297/4,663 Kbs
[23:08:24] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 3 minutes.
[23:08:24] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 17
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 18
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 19
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 21
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 22
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 23
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 24
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 25
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 26
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 27
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 28
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 29
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 30
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 31
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 32
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 33
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 34
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 35
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 36
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 37
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 38
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 39
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 40
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 41
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 42
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 43
[05:37:32] Phase II ENCODING completed in 389 minutes.
[05:37:32] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Rebuilding segment 0 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 1 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 2
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 3
- Rebuilding segment 3 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 4
- Rebuilding segment 4 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 5
- Rebuilding segment 5 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 6
- Rebuilding segment 6 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 7
- Rebuilding segment 7 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 8
- Rebuilding segment 8 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 9
- Rebuilding segment 9 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 10
- Rebuilding segment 10 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 11
- Rebuilding segment 11 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 12
- Rebuilding segment 12 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 13
- Rebuilding segment 13 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 14
- Rebuilding segment 14 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 15
- Rebuilding segment 15 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 16
- Rebuilding segment 16 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 17
- Rebuilding segment 17 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 18
- Rebuilding segment 18 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 19
- Rebuilding segment 19 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 20
- Rebuilding segment 20 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 21
- Rebuilding segment 21 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 22
- Rebuilding segment 22 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 23
- Rebuilding segment 23 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 24
- Rebuilding segment 24 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 25
- Rebuilding segment 25 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 26
- Rebuilding segment 26 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 27
- Rebuilding segment 27 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 28
- Rebuilding segment 28 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 29
- Rebuilding segment 29 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 30
- Rebuilding segment 30 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 31
- Rebuilding segment 31 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 32
- Rebuilding segment 32 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 33
- Rebuilding segment 33 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 34
- Rebuilding segment 34 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 35
- Rebuilding segment 35 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 36
- Rebuilding segment 36 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 37
- Rebuilding segment 37 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 38
- Rebuilding segment 38 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 39
- Rebuilding segment 39 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 40
- Rebuilding segment 40 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 41
- Rebuilding segment 41 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 42
- Rebuilding segment 42 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 43
- Rebuilding segment 43 VOBID: 1 CELLID: 44
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
Correcting VTS Sectors...
[05:48:06] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 11 minutes.

Done.
[05:48:06] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 403 min.

[buzzqw]

try to force gop to 12

BHH

[JohnG]

No matter what I do I can't get RB to find the HC.exe file. I am using the Pro Rb(079) version and HC_0.01 (obviously renamed to HC.exe). I have placed it in the same directory under C:Program Files\DVD-Rb. Would it help to remove all older versions of RB? I only keep them as zip files in a separate directory anyway.

I usually use CCE but would like to utilize HC with QLB matrix for bitrates ~2k (large backups).

[hank315]

Tried the Pro 080 version with the latest HC version.
Just want to say jdobbs did a great job, worked OK for me.
Rename the HCbatch_xxx.exe to HCbatch.exe, that's all.

Just put the latest batch version online.

Changelog:
- fixed an error where the scan flag wasn't set properly for interlaced source using argument input
- added *WAIT command to speed up exit after encoding
- some other minor bugs fixed
- 1, 2 and 3 frame clips are now encoded using Constant Quant

Download contains GUI and batch version + updated manual.
Will be in the download section soon.

Also at: http://hank315.dyndns.org/HC_012_total.zip

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by hank315
Tried the Pro 080 version with the latest HC version.
Just want to say jdobbs did a great job, worked OK for me.
Rename the HCbatch_xxx.exe to HCbatch.exe, that's all.

Just put the latest batch version online.

Changelog:
- fixed an error where the scan flag wasn't set properly for interlaced source using argument input
- added *WAIT command to speed up exit after encoding
- some other minor bugs fixed
- 1, 2 and 3 frame clips are now encoded using Constant Quant

Download contains GUI and batch version + updated manual.
Will be in the download section soon.

Also at: http://hank315.dyndns.org/HC_012_total.zip Actually you don't even have to rename it. DVD-RB looks for the first file that starts with "HCBATCH" and ends with ".EXE"

[DK]

having copied more than one hc*.exe file into rb's main folder, which will be chosen? :)

[jdobbs]

It has to be "HCBatch..." now, not "HC...", but it will grab the first one in the directory. In other words, you should only keep one there at a time. I was just trying to avoid having to rename it or look for a different name for each version.

[hobyho]

Originally posted by DK
having copied more than one hc*.exe file into rb's main folder, which will be chosen? :)

My question to you is, 'Why have different versions of HC in the RB folder?'

[quantum]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Actually you don't even have to rename it. DVD-RB looks for the first file that starts with "HCBATCH" and ends with ".EXE" Are you sure this works? I copied HCbatch_012a.exe into the rebuilder directory and got a file not found error after the prepare phase (one click mode). Renaming to hcbatch.exe and starting again from the encode phase is working so far. This could be my own error but maybe someone else can confirm.

[hank315]

Renaming to hcbatch.exe and starting again from the encode phase is working so far. This could be my own error but maybe someone else can confirm.Yes, same error message here.
Had to rename it also, after that no problems...

[jdobbs]

Odd... I haven't renamed it in mine... I guess I need to look at that.

[kbello]

for me works without rename

[m3taPT]

Here it works without rename, on 2 machines.

Those 2 machines - One is a Dual Xeon 2.4, the other is an AMD 2200. - doing the same rip have roughly the same encoding speeds.

Is this to be expected?

[hobyho]

No renaming needed for me also. Works fine.

[rpboy]

I wonder if the people who it didn't work for are on Windows 98 or Windows ME?

If it is, I could see where maybe the program isn't seeing the file in those operating systems because of the difference between long file names and the DOS name. HCBatch_012a.exe could be seen as HCBATC~1.EXE which might not get recognized by DVD-Rebuilder.

Just a thought.

[DK]

My question to you is, 'Why have different versions of HC in the RB folder?'

well, rb came with one version of hc*.exe

then hank released a new version and and i tend to keep different versions in order to compare them

sooner or later there might be another release of hc_enc and because there is no option to select hc*.exe like quenc, cce or procoder within the setup (maybe jdobbs could .... ;) ) i have more than one hc*.exe file in my rb folder

[JohnG]

Follow-up-
Since installing the new Rb(080 Pro) I am finally encoding with HC as we speak. I actually put all the files in a different directory than the normal C:Program.....etc. It now resides in my D: drive. I didn't bother to rename the encoder...just configured Rb and fired it up in HC mode and it found everything fine this time. One note though. Seems extremely slow. I'm backing up Lord of the Rings (Fellowship) and it's about 75% the way through and has been running for 12 hrs! Usually I can get CCE2.5 OPV to finish a movie in real time. I have the default matrix set in BEST mode. Is this normal? I am using HC for the quality because the bitrate is near 2000 but I'm not sure the results will be commensurate with the time. CCE can do a good job with filtering as long as the rate stays <2000 and finish MUCH quicker even in 2passVBR.

[jdobbs]

I always use the "NORMAL" or "GOOD" settings. I don't think I have the patience for "BEST"

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DK
well, rb came with one version of hc*.exe

then hank released a new version and and i tend to keep different versions in order to compare them

sooner or later there might be another release of hc_enc and because there is no option to select hc*.exe like quenc, cce or procoder within the setup (maybe jdobbs could .... ;) ) i have more than one hc*.exe file in my rb folder I may replace the pointer to DECOMB.DLL with it... if DECOMB.DLL is in the AVISYNTH plug-in directory you don't need that line anyway (and it is rarely used).

[JohnG]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I always use the "NORMAL" or "GOOD" settings. I don't think I have the patience for "BEST"

In your experience, is this akin to TMPGEnc's settings of "normal", "high" and "highest"? The difference between high and highest quality is negligible but the encoding time bogs down. Between normal and high there is a difference in quality (albeit small) so it usually is worth going with "high" as a good compromise for speed AND quality. Could this analogy be applied to the HC encoder? In other words, is "GOOD" a nice compromise of speed and quality?

BTW, your product has made my life (and my family's life, now that I spend less time in front of my computer) easier and richer. Thanks for all your hard work. My donation is FAR and away the best money I've ever spent.

[jdobbs]

Thanks, much...

My feeling is that GOOD is the right compromise... but I also don't think that I have a sample base large enough to make a conclusion yet.

[SAPSTAR]

I just tried to use HC instead of CCE just to compare...
Settings :
Quality BEST
Quant. MATRICES :
AVAMAT6 for Main features + Low Bitrates
EQMV3_ULB for Very Low BitRates
BACH1 for Half-D1

DVD-RB 0.80Pro + HCBatch 0.12 (the one coming with the last DVD-RB Pro)
Movie: XFiles Season 3 Disc 7 NTSC

The size of the result was only 4.05G :confused: instead of the usual 4.36G.

Did anybody encounter the same issue ??

P.S. : Jdobbs...you're doing a really good job, the introduction of the Q Matrices is a dream for me !!! When I'll have more money, I'll send you another donation, thank you for your great job ! :thanks:

[TCrowe]

Originally posted by SAPSTAR
I just tried to use HC instead of CCE just to compare...
Settings :
Quality BEST
Quant. MATRICES :
AVAMAT6 for Main features + Low Bitrates
EQMV3_ULB for Very Low BitRates
BACH1 for Half-D1

DVD-RB 0.80Pro + HCBatch 0.12 (the one coming with the last DVD-RB Pro)
Movie: XFiles Season 3 Disc 7 NTSC

The size of the result was only 4.05G :confused: instead of the usual 4.36G.

Did anybody encounter the same issue ??

P.S. : Jdobbs...you're doing a really good job, the introduction of the Q Matrices is a dream for me !!! When I'll have more money, I'll send you another donation, thank you for your great job ! :thanks:


Yes, my experiment came out 3.87 GB. Someone recommended "try to force gop to 12", I have not tried this yet. If you do can you please post your results?

Thanks

[SAPSTAR]

I'm currently trying to encode Xfiles Season 3 Disc5 with the latest version of HCBatch, I'll keep GOP Size on Auto as I read (in the HC Encoder forum) that it doesn't really change the size of the result....The latest version is supposed to correct some bugs, the scan flag for example...:cool:

[TCrowe]

Thanks for the info SAPSTAR, look forward to your results.

[ElRey]

So far I've had great results with HC. In the past I had tried DVD-RB before, but I didn't want to lay out the $$ for CCE and using QuEnc with DVD-RB took like 25 hours to encode a full DVD on my machine where HC is taking like 8 hours. Anyways, it's enough of a speed improvement that I went and donated to DVD-RB and plan to use it (and HC) as my main app for this.

I have a P4 with hyperthreading though and I noticed that when encoding that only 50% of the CPU was being used (probably 100% of one of them). Anyways, I got to thinking if it would be possible to run 2 copies of HC at the same time and get 100% CPU utilization. So, I ran 2 copies and set each to use one of the AVS files created by DVD-RB on the last run (just picked the first 2). HC appears to have run fine and both encodes finished at about the same time (haven't had a chance to look at the m2v files yet to make sure they look ok). CPU utilization was 100% during the run. Is there any chance DVD-RB could be enhanced to allow this kind of operation? I would be a quick and easy way to cut my encoding time in half!

[jdobbs]

Wow. It has been my experience that QuEnc is considerably faster than HC... I guess it all depends on your environment.

[Rockas]

@ElRey
Have you tried to change your process priority?

[SAPSTAR]

Originally posted by jdobbs
Wow. It has been my experience that QuEnc is considerably faster than HC... I guess it all depends on your environment.

And the settings too :) I suspect that the undersize pb could rise only with the BEST mode. I have a test running, once finished if it still undersized, I'll run with the GOOD mode. And if this test is bad again, I'll test a PAL movie, as I only tested NTSC movies !
Anyway, so far I found the quality surprisingly good in comparison with CCE or others....

[SAPSTAR]

Originally posted by TCrowe
Thanks for the info SAPSTAR, look forward to your results.

The result is 4.28Gb with HC 0.12a...it's a little bit undersized but I'll keep it...it took 11 hours to be processed. Anyway, the quality is really good. I suspect that HC Encoder is using 1024 instead of 1000 for kilobits.......We should ask to Hank !?!?!

[ElRey]

Originally posted by Rockas
@ElRey
Have you tried to change your process priority?

That wouldn't make a difference. From Windows XP's standpoint, the hyperthreaded processor is treated as 2 processors. If I go into Task Manager and select "View / CPU History / One Graph Per CPU" on the menu, I actually get 2 CPU Usage History graphs instead of just one.

So when I'm running an encode with DVD-RB and HC, one processor is ~100% dedicated to HC and the second processor is ~100% dedicated to DVD-RB (which is more or less inactive waiting for HC to finish). In Task Manager one graph is at 100% and the other graph is near 0%. When I run 2 copies of HC encoding simultaneously both graphs go to 100%.

When you use the multithreaded version of CCE, the one CCE process is handling splitting the workload across the 2 "processors" on the HT P4. Since HC is single threaded it doesn't split the work across processors itself like CCE does, but if you run 2 copies of HC at the same time, Windows spreads the work over both processors for you. It's the difference between multiple threads in the same process versus multiple processes.

So if DVD-RB could spin off 2 HC processes at the same time both "processors" would be engaged and (theoretically) the time to encode should be cut in half (each processor takes half of the segements).

[m3taPT]

Originally posted by ElRey
That wouldn't make a difference. From Windows XP's standpoint, the hyperthreaded processor is treated as 2 processors. If I go into Task Manager and select "View / CPU History / One Graph Per CPU" on the menu, I actually get 2 CPU Usage History graphs instead of just one.

So if DVD-RB could spin off 2 HC processes at the same time both "processors" would be engaged and (theoretically) the time to encode should be cut in half (each processor takes half of the segements).

I have dual processors (yes, Task Manager shows 4) and i tried running 2 processes like you did, and yes, i could make 2 of them used.
The "first" processor and the "threaded" processor of the first (how shall one call it? the virtual-threaded maybe?) were used, but that still didn't make the second and the threaded second to be used.

And i don't think that spawning FOUR processes would be the logical (to say the least).

CCE's behaviour: 1st and 3rd go to 100% cpu, and the 2nd and 4th (the threaded ones), vary between 60%-90%.

And with the enormous amount of fans i installed on this box specially to make it dedicated to encoding... right now, CCE is still the logical choice to maximize cpu usage (and all the other hardware).

[ElRey]

Originally posted by m3taPT
I have dual processors (yes, Task Manager shows 4) and i tried running 2 processes like you did, and yes, i could make 2 of them used.
The "first" processor and the "threaded" processor of the first (how shall one call it? the virtual-threaded maybe?) were used, but that still didn't make the second and the threaded second to be used.

How about "logical processor" (vs physical)? So, since you have 4 logical processors if you start 4 copies of HC and get them all encoding at once, do all 4 logical processors go to 100% in Task Manager? You need to start one encode per logical processor to repeat my test.

And i don't think that spawning FOUR processes would be the logical (to say the least).

Why not? Programmers have been using fork(), exec(), etc. in Unix for like 30 years! Windows will automatically manage the workload across CPU's for you, and DVD-RB is already spawning one process per segment for the encoding step, just serially instead of in parallel. If the capability is there in Windows already, why not use it? Granted that creating a process is heavier than creating a thread, so a MPEG encoder process with multiple threads should be more optimal than running multiple MPEG encoder processes, but it's a cheap way for those of us who don't have CCE (but do have HT P4's) to see a major increase in encoding performance.

[dragongodz]

ok lets clear this up so people can PLEASE stop asking.

HC 0.12 uses 1000Kbit/s.

HC can undersize using any of the modes. better rate control is already on the list to be worked on.

HC is not multithreaded so on dual cpu or P4 HT will not be using the full cpu resources unlike CCE. try it on a single cpu or HT turned off however and it is pretty quick.

[Thor263]

Ok, I've run into a different problem with DVD-RB 0.80 + HCBatch_012 (or 12a for that matter) that I haven't seen posted anywhere. I'm trying to encode the original NTSC Tomb Raider and HC seems to loop partway through the encode - it indicates it is an intermediate pass. Task manager shows HCBatch_012 as taking all of the cpu. I've tried the version that came with 0.80 and the newer 12a version - both exhibit the problem. There doesn't seem to be any problem stopping the process using the DVD-RB "Stop/Pause" button however.

I'm running XP Pro w/ SP2 on an Athlon 1800+. No preprocessing of any type was done. I've included the RB log - VTS_03 segment 13 is where the problem occurs. What other information can I supply that would be useful?

[20:16:03] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- HC encoder selected
- "Half-D1/Half Space for Extras" mode is enabled.
- VTS_02: 44,443 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 3,020 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_03: 2,002,902 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 144,672 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_04: 560,700 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 45,773 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_05: 140,363 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 12,264 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_06: 403,382 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 36,395 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_07: 188,263 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 14,376 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_08: 210,960 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 16,991 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_09: 128,903 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 13,033 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_10: 80,634 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 7,241 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_11: 41,235 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 3,792 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 53.5%
- Overall Bitrate : 2,351Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,561,568KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = 53.6%
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 6,839/393/2,351 Kbs
[20:23:20] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 7 minutes.
[20:28:05] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 4
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 5
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 6
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 7
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 8
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 9
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 10
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 11
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 12
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 13

[m3taPT]

Originally posted by ElRey
Why not? Programmers have been using fork(), exec(), etc. in Unix for like 30 years!

I'm a *nix programmer. (not for 30 years, "only" for almost 20). Please don't dare to compare *nix's way to do things with Windows. It's a sacrilege, and this is not the proper place to do it.

[ElRey]

Originally posted by dragongodz
ok lets clear this up so people can PLEASE stop asking
HC is not multithreaded so on dual cpu or P4 HT will not be using the full cpu resources unlike CCE.

That was (IMHO) the beauty of the technique I was suggesting. You can get full CPU utilization on a HT P4 or dual CPU box without modifying the existing HC at all. Only DVD-RB would have to be modified.

If you think of it in terms of batch files, my impression of what DVD-RB does now during the encoding step would look something like:

REM Write the hc.ini
HCbatch –ini hc.ini
REM Write a new hc.ini
HCbatch –ini hc.ini

and what I'm suggesting is more like:

REM Write one INI file per segment during the Prepare step
start HCbatch –ini segment01.ini
HCbatch –ini segment02.ini

The second batch has 2 copies of HC running concurrently (due to the START command) and will always finish in less time (and have better CPU utilization) on a dual processor / HT P4 box than the first batch file (all other things being equal). Concurrent encoding would (IMHO) be a nice option to have built into DVD-RB for folks with HT P4's / dual CPU machines.


P.S. For the dual HT P4 scenario (4 logical processors) it would be something like:

REM Write one INI file per segment during the Prepare step
start HCbatch –ini segment01.ini
start HCbatch –ini segment02.ini
start HCbatch –ini segment03.ini
HCbatch –ini segment04.ini

[dragongodz]

That was (IMHO) the beauty of the technique I was suggesting. You can get full CPU utilization on a HT P4 or dual CPU box without modifying the existing HC at all.
yes i understood what you were suggesting and my reply wasnt aimed at you. it was to all the people that keep saying or asking about things that have been discusses and said already, such as speed and output undersize etc.

[quantum]

I just finished an episodic dvd9 disk which was filled to the brim with interlaced NTSC. I tried both CCE 2.6x and Hanks latest encoder using the best option. Looking carefully at several frames there are many frames where Hanks output is clearly better. There are others where CCE might be slightly better. So it's an interesting dilema, but one that I'm glad to have. Kudos again to Hank for his fine work.

[Pabloz]

im having problems to download the HC BATCH posted in the stiky
the elinks seems to be wrong

[Vanderlow]

This link should work.

http://hank315.dyndns.org/HC_012_total.zip

[Trahald]

hank updated hcenc12batch with a different filename (some bug fixes ) and apparently took down the one linked in the sticky

[Morte66]

Does anyone have a view on whether it's best to enable/disable scene change detection in HC?

[edeus]

Is there a general concensus that HC is best (compared to other encoders) for both high and low bitrate encodes?

I'd love to make the switch as I am finding if CCE 3pass doesnt have 3gb+ of main movie space, quality drops terribly.

From what I am reading CCE is still great due to quality+speed but HC overall is better quality wise sacrificing quality.

i always thought dvd-rb + cce was good enough to handle a 2 hour movie + 1 hour of extras recompressed without noticable image loss but i am realising the awful truth about dvd5 limitations now. perhaps it is still necessary to cut out extras if they are too large as i am finding 50% quality drop is still taking up valuable space even though they are basically unwatchable.

[hank315]

Does anyone have a view on whether it's best to enable/disable scene change detection in HC?Best is to enable it.
On a scene change a new GOP will start, that's better than have a intra coded P or B frame in a GOP or there must be a special reason to have a fixed GOP length.

For people having trouble downloading HC, it's also in the Doom9 download section.

[m3taPT]

Originally posted by edeus
perhaps it is still necessary to cut out extras if they are too large as i am finding 50% quality drop is still taking up valuable space even though they are basically unwatchable.

You might want to cut out extras first (retaining everything else), THEN doing the entire reencode with dvd-rb.

[gizzin]

Did anyone do a encode of Saving Private Ryan With HC, does it do a better job than CCE? I did a encode with 2.66 and 2.70 both were 6 passes but they both came out pixelated. Even though 2.70 was a little better. With a average bitrate of 2855.

[onesoul]

Originally posted by gizzin
Did anyone do a encode of Saving Private Ryan With HC, does it do a better job than CCE? I did a encode with 2.66 and 2.70 both were 6 passes but they both came out pixelated. Even though 2.70 was a little better. With a average bitrate of 2855. Personally I prefer hc or quenc, go ahead and try it, don't forget to check back your results.

[Boulder]

SPR is a pain with any encoder as the ultra-shaky camera makes a very bitrate hungry video.

I'd try Bach1 as the quant matrix, it can give a nice compressibility boost but will smooth the video a bit. It could be that you don't notice anything due to the almost constantly moving camera anyway. Using RemoveGrain(mode=2) + Deen() could also help. LRemoveDust(4,2) often works wonders (use it by itself only), the function can be found in the RemoveGrain thread at Avisynth usage forum.

[Morte66]

Originally posted by hank315
Best is to enable it.
On a scene change a new GOP will start, that's better than have a intra coded P or B frame in a GOP or there must be a special reason to have a fixed GOP length.

Thanks. I ran a full backup of Aliens R2 PAL (movie only) with DVD-RB/HC on Best profile and QLB matrix. It looks very good, slightly better than my usual FreeEnc (which gives pretty much identical results to using QuEnc in normal mode but multitasks more amiably). It took 961 minutes on my XP1900+ with some other concurrent usage; I'd expect about 360 minutes with FreeEnc.

I guess maybe I'll have to run QuEnc in high quality mode with trellis, which should take about the same time as HC, and see how that compares.

Now I have multiple installs of DVD-RB: 0.69 for FreeEnc which dislikes some current QuEnc switches, and 0.79 for HC.

[SAPSTAR]

Originally posted by hank315
Best is to enable it.
On a scene change a new GOP will start, that's better than have a intra coded P or B frame in a GOP or there must be a special reason to have a fixed GOP length.

For people having trouble downloading HC, it's also in the Doom9 download section.

First hank315 :thanks:, congratulations for your encoder, I did a lot experiment with it, and you know what, I tend to like it more and more, I am/was a CCE believer....well I may change my mind, yes your encoder is slower, but I found the quality is better with HC. :)

Anyway, I was wondering if you plan to correct the bitrate control pb on HCbatch in a close future ? That's the only thing that's preventing me to use it for all my encoding jobs.

[TheSeeker]

I use dvd rebuilder 0.80, avisynth 2.55, dgdecode 1.10, hc_batch 0.12. On a completely unpreprocessed source. HC_batch is in same directory as rebuilder.exe and named HC_Batch.exe. Anyways, when I go through the prepare phase, all is well. But the instant I hit the encode button, no matter what I do, I get an Runtime Error 5: Invalid Procedure Call or Argument. I know HC_Batch on its own works on my machine because I have taken the hc.ini file that dvd rb creates and thrown it into the same directory as hc_batch and the encoder works to rebuild that particular segment. SO it will work fantastically if I kick every segment off manually. Its just the interation with DVD REbuilder that is pissing it off or something. Not sure what to do about this. Let me know if you need any more info Jdobbs. Im at work right now but I can give you whatever you need when I get home.

[cmsoliveira]

@TheSeeker

I believe the problem you're having is because of the name...

Quoting Jdobbs:

The HC encoder's .EXE file must be loaded in the same directory as DVD Rebuilder and the name must start with "HCBATCH" (e.g. "HCBATCH_012.EXE").

In your case you have HC_BATCH.Exe

Hope it helps

[TheSeeker]

hmmm.. very interesting. Your right. I will confirm the file name when i get home. If your right, i will jump for joy that I can now use this fantastic encoder with rebuilder. but it would be a stupid mistake on my part.

[johnhamler1]

hello,

is there a way, to increase the tyargetsize of HC? it miss around 200 mb on my DVD-5?
this new HC encoder is great.

[Fishman0919]

Yes, this is from the "Sticky: DVD ReBuilder: Settings".

Hidden Settings

These are settings not available via the GUI, but can be set in the 'Rebuilder.ini' file in the your DVD ReBuilder program directory. (Note: this is not the same as the file created in the WORKING directory named 'Rebuilder.ini'). These settings are for advanced users, otherwise they wouldn't be hidden.

All optional settings MUST be placed in the '[Options]' section of the .ini file, otherwise they will be ignored. Any settings changed here will not be activated until the next time you run DVD-RB.



Target Output Size

TargetSectors= nnnn
CCETargetSectors=nnnn
ReJigTargetSectors=nnnn
QuEncTargetSectors=nnnn

Use Sectors, 1 sector = 2Kb.
Example: CCETargetSectors=2236400

As a reference the default for DVD-RB is 2236400 sectors and the maximum for a DVD-5 is 2297888. You should always leave a some room for error.

TargetSectors will be the default for all methods. Other, mode specific, target sector settings will override it when using that mode.

-------------------
Use TargetSectors= nnnn and set "nnnn" to something a little higher then the default (2236400), I use 2252000 with HC Encoder and it gets me a DVD about 4.35g

[Vanderlow]

Of course the person who said they missed by 200mb is probably talking about the non-Pro version (as that is what I get) and changing the rebuilder.ini settings my be ignored like the 8000 bit rate limit was. I'm just saying maybe. Report back if it works. If the Pro version with HC is coming at 4.32Gb, as JDobbs reports, that tells me the Pro version's settings for HC seem to have the settings right for targeting the size at 4.32Gb and maybe Hank should see what the Pro version is using in this regard and adjust the non-Pro version accordingly.

[TCrowe]

Originally posted by Vanderlow
Of course the person who said they missed by 200mb is probably talking about the non-Pro version (as that is what I get) and changing the rebuilder.ini settings my be ignored like the 8000 bit rate limit was. I'm just saying maybe. Report back if it works. If the Pro version with HC is coming at 4.32Gb, as JDobbs reports, that tells me the Pro version's settings for HC seem to have the settings right for targeting the size at 4.32Gb and maybe Hank should see what the Pro version is using in this regard and adjust the non-Pro version accordingly.

I came up short, 3.87 GB, using .80 Pro in my initial (only) test of HC. So I don't know if Pro Vs. Non-Pro will resolve this problem. I have only done one test however. Somebody recommended setting the GOP to 12 but I have not tried this yet.

[Oldeman]

I just ran DVD-RB ver.80 Pro with HC in one pass, GOP-12 and came up with a output size of 3.94Gb. Target sectors were set at 2266000. I am running again with target sectors raised to 2277000. HC has good quality but has consistantly undersized for me.

I kinda remember someone said that sizing was better i

[ernstblaauw]

Target Output Size

TargetSectors= nnnn
CCETargetSectors=nnnn
ReJigTargetSectors=nnnn
QuEncTargetSectors=nnnn

Use Sectors, 1 sector = 2Kb.
Example: CCETargetSectors=2236400
Is there also a 'HCTargetSector'-setting?

[jdobbs]

It will use the "TargetSectors" or "QuEncTargetSectors" with the QuEnc one having priority. I just forgot to add it and will put an HCTargetSectors in the next version. Also, I don't think I documented anywhere, but there is also a NoEncodeTargetSectors= value that can be entered...

[hank315]

I know about the undersizing issue, tests I did also showed some undersizing.
If the source can be compressed very easily the bitrate control as implemented now has trouble to keep the desired bitrate.
ATM I'm working on a complete new encoding engine, one of the things that will be changed is the bitrate control.

Just wondering what kind of DVD's undersize under 4 GB, smallest backup I did was 4.25 GB...

[jdobbs]

I've never gotten any that small either... It's possible it may not be your encoder at all... I haven't found it yet, but I have a suspicion that I may have a bug related to recovering sectors when "Steal space from Extras" is used.

[quantum]

So far my HC encodes have been right on the money also. My last Video_ts directory was 4,658,577,408.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that Hanks encoder using the 'best' option has given me noticably better encodes than CCE under heavy compression, around 2,100 Kbs.

I finished 3 episodic disks using both CCE and HC and compared them in Vdub and HC has less macro blocking and tends to be closer to the original. The difference is not earth shattering, but it is noticeable.

For higher bitrate encodes, both will do very well at 3000, so CCE is probably the better choice since it's faster. I haven't done any tests using HC's faster options so they may be worth exploring for higher bitrates for those interested in using only HC.

I realize 99% of the masses would rather spend months reading messages about other peoples work rather than do actual testing themselves, so I'll feed the sloth by posting my results.

Yes, Quantum has deemed HC to be cool. Swarm to it and give Hank our thanks ;)

[Oldeman]

After raising target sectors to 2277000, I got exactly the same size 3.94Gb as before. Movie was preprocessed with DvdReMake to 5.4Gb.
I selected the french audio stream (364mb)to remove with with Dvd-Rebuilder.

DVD-RB v,80, HCbatch12a.
Options, 1 pass, GOP 12, DC precision 9, Dynamic bit rates, did not select steal space from extras. Did not select dynamic bit rates.

[Oldeman]

correction did select Dynamic bit rates, one pass CQ vbr...

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Oldeman
After raising target sectors to 2277000, I got exactly the same size 3.94Gb as before. Movie was preprocessed with DvdReMake to 5.4Gb.
I selected the french audio stream (364mb)to remove with with Dvd-Rebuilder.

DVD-RB v,80, HCbatch12a.
Options, 1 pass, GOP 12, DC precision 9, Dynamic bit rates, did not select steal space from extras. Did not select dynamic bit rates. Could you post the [Status] section of the REBUILDER.INF file?

[onesoul]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I've never gotten any that small either... It's possible it may not be your encoder at all... I haven't found it yet, but I have a suspicion that I may have a bug related to recovering sectors when "Steal space from Extras" is used. I didn't use any other option like steal space from extras. As I have posted on hc thread, the encoder is undersizing comparing to hc batch 0.01.
With hc batch 0.12 I got ~3920mb (autogop on) and ~4030mb (12 2 gop), with hc 0.01 got ~4320mb (12 2).

I analysed the log file and I could verify the undersizing. The source was interlaced dvd pal.

[onesoul]

Originally posted by Oldeman
After raising target sectors to 2277000, I got exactly the same size 3.94Gb as before. Movie was preprocessed with DvdReMake to 5.4Gb.
I selected the french audio stream (364mb)to remove with with Dvd-Rebuilder.

DVD-RB v,80, HCbatch12a.
Options, 1 pass, GOP 12, DC precision 9, Dynamic bit rates, did not select steal space from extras. Did not select dynamic bit rates. This is a long shot, could you check that the french audio is deselected again with dvd-rb?

For example, I verified that when disabling audio streams with dvdshrink, if I don't deselect that same audio stream with dvd-rb, it will take in account that stream space which would lead to a undersized output (because that audio stream wasn't actually there).

The undersizing I mentioned before exists although.

[Oldeman]

Sorry, I have already deleted the working directory, but here is the rebuilder log for what its worth.

I can rerun the whole run in about 2.5 hours, if you need it.

- Detected ANGLE and/or INTERLEAVING on source.
[11:21:00] One Click encoding activated...
-----------------
[11:21:00] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- HC encoder selected
- VTS_01: 2,831,420 sectors.
-- ANGLE and/or INTERLEAVING is present.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 187,955 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 79.7%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,394Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,247,930KB
- Analyzing VTS_01 for optimal CQ factor.
-- TargetSize (sectors):1,948,758
-- Sampling 1884 of 187955 frames.
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=2: 4,961,536
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=6: 1,623,209
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=4: 2,482,863
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=5: 1,978,964
- CQ Value selected: 6
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 4,612/917/3,394 Kbs
[11:30:52] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 9 minutes.
[11:30:52] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
[12:59:20] Phase II ENCODING completed in 89 minutes.
[12:59:20] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 3 CELLID: 3
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 4 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 19 VOBID: 6 CELLID: 17
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 7 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 20 VOBID: 9 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_09
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
Correcting VTS Sectors...
[13:10:27] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 11 minutes.

Done.
[13:10:29] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 109 min.
[15:05:00] One Click encoding activated...
-----------------
[15:05:00] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- HC encoder selected
- VTS_01: 2,831,420 sectors.
-- ANGLE and/or INTERLEAVING is present.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 187,955 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 80.3%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,417Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,269,930KB
- Analyzing VTS_01 for optimal CQ factor.
-- TargetSize (sectors):1,961,958
-- Sampling 1884 of 187955 frames.
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=2: 4,961,536
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=6: 1,623,209
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=4: 2,482,863
-- Predicted size (sectors) at CQ=5: 1,978,964
- CQ Value selected: 6
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 4,643/917/3,417 Kbs
[15:15:10] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 10 minutes.
[15:15:11] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
[16:43:00] Phase II ENCODING completed in 88 minutes.
[16:43:00] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 1 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 2 VOBID: 3 CELLID: 3
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 4 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 19 VOBID: 6 CELLID: 17
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
- Rebuilding ILVU Area VOBID: 7 CELLID: 1
- Rebuilding segment 20 VOBID: 9 CELLID: 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_09
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
Correcting VTS Sectors...
[16:54:07] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 11 minutes.

Done.
[16:54:08] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 109 min.

[Oldeman]

I did not remove the French audio track in the preprocess, I selected it for removal in DVD-RB.

[jdobbs]

The problem is that you selected one pass CQ encoding... That has a very limited prediction capability... and often the size you are seeing will be as close as it can get. Changing CQ by one click can often make a huge size jump.

If you want to get accurate sizing you have to do two passes. Limited sizing is the price you pay for one pass encoding. (109 minute encoding is nice, though...)

[DK]

i have had one slightly oversized title so far but the rest was almost perfectly on spot using 012a

[TCrowe]

Originally posted by hank315
I know about the undersizing issue, tests I did also showed some undersizing.
If the source can be compressed very easily the bitrate control as implemented now has trouble to keep the desired bitrate.
ATM I'm working on a complete new encoding engine, one of the things that will be changed is the bitrate control.

Just wondering what kind of DVD's undersize under 4 GB, smallest backup I did was 4.25 GB...

It was an NTSC/DVD9, preprocessed with VobBlanker.

jdobbs: I did have "Steal Space" on when I did my test. I am going to run another test tonight.

[Oldeman]

Just re-ran movie about with DVD-RB .81 and HCBatch12a. This time used 2-pass fast option instead of 1 pass with Gop-12 DC prec-9.

Removed french audio track as above.

Final size was 4.38Gb...

Now, can we take advantage of hyper-threading on the P4s and get some speed out of this mother.

Well done, JDobbs and Hank.:);)

[johnhamler1]

did a back up of king arthur, pal version, integral version.

quality best, matrix, 2 pass, 1 click,steal space 50%-D1...(with DVDrebuild0.79&HC)(take around 8.5 hours)
came out 500 mb less than expected.(the other PAL movie(Below) I did with HC was 200mb short, quality is fantastic on my projector, so I burned it).

sound like the one click option compress too much. strange???I dont see why this setting will affect compressibility???
will try again tonight, and I will post my results...

you say I can change target size, is that for the pro version only???, I use the non-pro version)

[jdobbs]

No -- it is in both versions.

[johnhamler1]

oh good u are here on line...

so if i understand , I have to change my setting like that:
f*maxbitrate 8000
*matrix qlb
*profile best
*targetsectors= 2252000

and it should resolve my size problem, right???:D

[jdobbs]

You are confusing the HC.INI with REBUILDER.INI.

The TargetSectors= goes in REBUILDER.INI under the [Options] area.

BUT!!!! If you change it, don't EVER complain to me about oversizing.... the default setting has been tested and is the most reliable.

[johnhamler1]

ok jdobbs , I will check that when at home.

why should I complain?, if it oversizes , not a big deal!!!. even undersized, it is still the best (free)encoder and much better than a transcoder.

I did a 3x zoom on my projector (3 meters diagonal) with starwar2 last night , with DVD shrink, it is all blurry and I have plenty of artifacts. with HC, it is watchable (at 3x zoom)...and I have not seen any artifacts.

I am very excited about this new HC....

(ps : found the file to "correct", thank you)

[rendez2k]

Did my first test with HC 0.12 last night using the 'good' profile with DVD-RB 0.81 Pro. Source DVD was 7.22gb with 3 hours of programs plus about 15 mins of extras. I just used the one click option and turned off any steel space from extras options. Took just under 8 hours to complete, but I had HT turned on so HC was only running at 50% processor time (I have a 3.2gig P4). Heres two questions though. When for instance video fades in from black, it looks a little pixilated, is this something to do with low bitrates (more noticeable on the extras)? Can it be avoided? Also, it might be me (and I will check further tonight) but it looks like theres very occasionally tiny jumps or stutters in the video - has anybody else had this?

[jdobbs]

You can clear up some of the low bitrate pixelation with a custom matrix for low and very low bitrates. I haven't noticed any jitters.

[rendez2k]

I'll check the jitters again tonight, I was very tired this morning! As for custom matrix's, is there somewhere I can read up on this?

[Rockas]

I've developed a MatrixEditor for Rebuilder check:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91929

On the editor you'll find descriptions of the matrices included that may help you.

[rendez2k]

The jitters i mentioned are quite noticeable at one chapter point on my Sony standalone. However, on my other standalone it plays through perfectly, although there is some slight pixilation at that point and the camera is moving quite quickly too. Any further ideas?

[cmsoliveira]

The jitters i mentioned are quite noticeable at one chapter point on my Sony standalone.

Hi, do you mean, between chapters or during a specific chapter? I'm asking this because, i finished one backup in order to test HC, and the output is great, but between chapters i notice a little jitter. Minimum but it's there. The sound plays perfectly.

I own a sony too.

I need to make other tests because the movie was post processed so the fault might be there.

[Fishman0919]

Same here on my Sony, but play fine on 2 Pioneer.

[JohnG]

No big surprise. I haven't bought a Sony product in 10 years. Nothing but problems.

[jdobbs]

Does it only happen when using HC?

[rendez2k]

One specific chapter was worse than others, but I think there something minor at the chapter change in most or all of them. The DVD wasn't pre-processed in any way either. I've never noticed this before with CCE but I guess I would need to run the same DVD through CCE to see if its a DVD or HC related problem.

[hank315]

There's a difference how CCE and HC ends a sequence, ATM HC always writes a sequence end code.
In the ecl file I see this is disabled for CCE (seq_endcode=0), maybe this could cause it?

[jdobbs]

[Corrected] The sequence end code is only used on still frames. Is there a way you could add it as an option? It's definitely a problem, as I had the same result with CCE early in DVD-RB development.

[jdobbs]

Yep. In fact, here's a quote from the change log:

- Corrected output of seq_endcode in CCE encoding. This value was incorrectly set to "1" when it should have been "0" -- the result was an end code being inserted at the end of every cell and may have caused glitches on some players. It may be related to possible "stutter" and audio dropouts that has been reported. Thanks to RB for pointing this out. (v0.29)

[hank315]

No problem, shall create a new command which will disable the end code output, will PM you about it.

[jdobbs]

Thanks.

[cmsoliveira]

No problem, shall create a new command which will disable the end code output, will PM you about it.

That's good news :)

Even so, i did run a few tests just to make sure that it wasn't RB fault.

This 2 tests were made using the rebuild disc:

First I demux the problematic movie and remux with muxman (with all audio and subtitles) -> stutter remained
Then I re-author the movie with dvd-shrink (movie only) -> when the movie changed chapter, the image freeze seconds later but the sound continues.

Using an original dvd:
Dvd-Rb with no-compression - movie played perfect
Dvd-rb with cce - movie played perfect
Dvd-rb with HC - movie stutter (very little) between chapters

The stutter was only detected on my sony, in another dvd player everything went fine.

So the problem could very well be the end sequence (i hope it is).

[rendez2k]

Glad to know this will be sorted for us Sony owners! Just out of interest, how many passes approx. in CCE are related to the Normal, Good and Best profiles in HC?

[onesoul]

Originally posted by rendez2k
Glad to know this will be sorted for us Sony owners! Just out of interest, how many passes approx. in CCE are related to the Normal, Good and Best profiles in HC? That's hard to say because the encoders apparently work in different ways. Someone said in another post that CCE delivers better quality at 1 pass vbr, well with some tests I have made I tend to agree on that or at least they are as good.
Providing 1 pass vbr analysis is used in order to find the right quantizer which then would deliver the most constant quality output (same Q throughout the movie). Ddogg defended OPV (1 pass vbr), and I was stubborn at some point to accept it but I believe it is the way to go with CCE.

But I still prefer HC :D

[edeus]

im tempted to test CCE versus HC again in the following (if someone doesnt say it has been done)

Normal/Grainy/Action/Cartoon/Anime/Animation video:
CCE 2, 3, 4 and 5 pass
vs
HC in normal, good and best modes

Why do scene rippers use CCE @ 5p if supposedly doesnt get better after 4p?

Basically I just do 3p or 4p and can do a DVD/4h which if it can equal HC's good or near its best mode - I can see it being a good tradeoff for quality vs time.

[jdobbs]

Try this test:

1. Buy CCE and encode a movie.
2. Download HC, encode a movie, and go out for a nice dinner.

They both cost about the same. :D


(Don't get me wrong. I LOVE CCE, and it is well worth the $58, but let's make it apples-to-apples). To be honest with you -- QuEnc is really close to these two encoders as well, and it is almost as fast as CCE.

[onesoul]

I didn't take in account other possibly factors when posting above. I believe that 1 pass vbr encode is sufficient when having enough bitrate. But if you have low bitrate (lets say around 3000kbps or lower) then you can take advantage of multipass and it's bias setting which should get higher the less bitrate you have available (bias 25 it's good compomise). (Not to mention the obvious size encoding precision but that wasn't the point anyway.)

And for multipass I wouldn't go above 2-3 passes (including vaf file creation), don't see any improvements with right settings chosen.

[Fishman0919]

I'm in the middle of doing a quality test with different encoders and I was trying to narrow down what ver of CCE to use (CCE SP 2.50, 2.66, 2.67, 2.70...). Well I started with CCE SP 2.70, I did a quick test of a few short clips at diff. bitrates (2000-2750)with OPV, 2 passes, 10 passes and (LOL) 100 passes to see if there was any Quality diff. between them (100 passes w/ CCE SP 2.70.02.00 never again, biggest waste of time). Well, with 3 of the same Mits 65" HD TV's sitting next to each other (I work at an Audio/Video retail store, makes it a little easier to do that) and with 3 of the same Denon DVD players playing the same clips at the same time from OVP, 2 passes and (hell why not) 100 passes, not one person who I asked could see any difference... well, with me knowing what was what...I couldn't tell. They all looked the same.

Hey, I did have a point to this at one time but for me 2 passes is great... hit my target size all the time and to me...it looks the same as 100 passes.

Edit: Experiences with HC Encoder....sorry, a little OT

[johnhamler1]

i have increased my tagetsize value a bit higher...a lot higher, and now I am at 250 mb under , when before it was 450 mb undersized.
so it is better now with HC.

with QUenc, i see artifacts, there are some parralel artifacts on everything straight, like the edges of houses.this is on my beamer, so u have to zoom to see .

Seem I have better result with HC, except it is still undersized.will do more projections in the futur.
HC is the best free encoder so far.I dont have the one at 58$, so I can not the difference, should I buy it???

[rendez2k]

Any news on the updated HC encoder for the Sony problem?! I'm egger to re-test! :D

[hank315]

Just implemented a command to skip the end code and fixed some other bugs.
Needs some testing... so please be patient :)

BTW, if you still have the m2v files, just use a hex editor and edit the m2v files, delete the last 4 bytes (00 00 01 B7), rebuild it again, that's all.

[rendez2k]

Arh, i don't have the m2v files, so I'll be patient and wait for the new version :D

[cmsoliveira]

BTW, if you still have the m2v files, just use a hex editor and edit the m2v files, delete the last 4 bytes (00 00 01 B7), rebuild it again, that's all.

That's what i did.

I took the rebuild dvd and run it thru rebuilder in "no compression" (3 click mode), i.e., prepare and encode.

Next download a little tool called ReStream and load all the segments that are a part of the movie (or all the segments that are giving you trouble - don't know if the last segment need to have the end sequence code, so i let it stay) and process them (don't forget to check "Remove Seq. End Codes")

After that you will have all the m2v files without the end sequence code.

Load again rebuilder, press rebuild and it´s all done.

I tried that and in the parts were the jitter was, is gone :)

I still need to see the whole movie but i'm sure that it's perfect.

I only this this because of the encoding time of HC is too much (i have a AMD Tbird 1.3 MHZ), but i continue to say,

Great encoder, hank315 :)

[lamster]

@jdobbs - selecting Help / Display Versions doesn't display the version of HC. (HCbatch_012a.exe contains an internal version of 1.0.)

[jdobbs]

Unfortunately all versions of HC show as being the same... (v1.0.0.0) -- the only way I could check would be with a filesize, and I wouldn't want to do that until after it stabilizes.

[johnhamler1]

watched king arthur last night on my beamer DLP.
what I can say is, in action scenes, it is less blurry than dvd schrink, and the movie is watchable in kung fu sequences.

HC is a great tool. the guy selling the 58$(CEE(?))should now review his price.HC will be probably better than CEE. if it is not already!

[rendez2k]

Are there future plans to sell or take donation for HC?

[lamster]

Originally posted by jdobbs
the only way I could check would be with a filesize
Actually, I think it would be very useful if you would include the version number, file's timestamp, and filesize for each of the files that you're checking. (I'd also like to see an auto-version option, which would automatically include the version info in the log file at the start of the Prepare phase. This could log only the executables that are being used for the current rebuild - including that of Rebuilder itself.)

[rendez2k]

I assuming the new 0.82 corrects the 'sony' issue with HC?
- Added code to removed sequence end codes that are added as a default on some encoders. The end code at the end of a segment can cause problems on some players.

[jdobbs]

That's the intent... someone will have to confirm it though.

[hank315]

Unfortunately all versions of HC show as being the same... (v1.0.0.0)Will update it in the next version.

[quantum]

Originally posted by rendez2k
I assuming the new 0.82 corrects the 'sony' issue with HC?
- Added code to removed sequence end codes that are added as a default on some encoders. The end code at the end of a segment can cause problems on some players.Has anyone confirmed this is fixed with 0.82?

.

[Fishman0919]

Just re-did Elektra w/ DVD-RB .82 pro, first time was with DVD-RB .80 Freeware had the skip/shudder at chapter points... went in with a Hex Editer and removed end code of the .m2v files and ran rebuild again, it worked fine. 2nd time with DVD-RB .82 pro worked fine also.


Edit: Sorry, 2nd time encoding the movie... first time doing the movie w/ DVD-RB .82 pro worked fine.

[jdobbs]

:cool: That's good to know!

[JohnG]

Originally posted by jdobbs
:cool: That's good to know!
I second that! After harshly judging Sony in an earlier post, I feel a bit foolish now(although I still won't buy Sony). I just played a bunch of backups in my primary player (I usually test them on my secondary player which is more discriminating) and discovered that they ALL skip at chapter points. It is a Samsung which usually plays anything I've ever thrown in it. My test one is a $40 Magnavox set up for the kiddies (which happens to play the HC encodes flawlessly :rolleyes: ) Oh well, I guess I can live with them...I'm not about to Restream them and burn 15 new DVD+R's. I have a Toshiba DVD player on the way...hopefully it can handle these better than the Samsung :)

[Vanderlow]

So with the new 80 free version and HC encoder 12a I see a max bitrate of 8552 (upper right corner of of HC) even though I have an ini line of max bitrate of 8000.

*maxbitrate 8000
*matrix qlb
*profile best
*logfile C:\Program Files\DVD-RB\HC\test.log

[cmsoliveira]

So with the new 80 free version and HC encoder 12a I see a max bitrate of 8552 (upper right corner of of HC) even though I have an ini line of max bitrate of 8000.

I believe that bug was fixed un v0.80, where all the encodes were done with a maxbitrate of 9000 kbps.

Now,rebuilder sends an argument with the right maxbitrate, and i think that arguments have priority over the ini file.

If i'm wrong,please correct me.

[manolito]

Originally posted by cmsoliveira
Now,rebuilder sends an argument with the right maxbitrate, and i think that arguments have priority over the ini file.

If i'm wrong,please correct me.
No, you are absolutely right.

Cheers
manolito

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by JohnG
I second that! After harshly judging Sony in an earlier post, I feel a bit foolish now(although I still won't buy Sony). I just played a bunch of backups in my primary player (I usually test them on my secondary player which is more discriminating) and discovered that they ALL skip at chapter points. It is a Samsung which usually plays anything I've ever thrown in it. My test one is a $40 Magnavox set up for the kiddies (which happens to play the HC encodes flawlessly :rolleyes: ) Oh well, I guess I can live with them...I'm not about to Restream them and burn 15 new DVD+R's. I have a Toshiba DVD player on the way...hopefully it can handle these better than the Samsung :) The were all done with HC?

[JohnG]

Originally posted by jdobbs
The were all done with HC?
Yes. With rbv080Pro and 081. I always mark the process on each finished DVD. The ones where CCE2.5 and OPV were used, there are no problems.

[jdobbs]

@JohnG

You can rebuild any discs that may have the glitch without having to reencode. Just run the backup through DVD-RB again using "No Compression" as the mode and DVD-RB will correct it upon REBUILD. It doesn't take too long... You can even do it straight from the DVD (because the backup isn't encrypted) without ripping it to the hard drive -- although that might slow it down.

[JohnG]

Originally posted by jdobbs
@JohnG

You can rebuild any discs that may have the glitch without having to reencode.

I am just stingy...it's not the process that concerned me, just the cost of the new discs. ;)

[jdobbs]

Ok, cool... but maybe someone else in a similar circumstance will read this post and say "Hey! That just saved me a whole lot of time."

[Vanderlow]

I thought the max bitrate for DVD was suppose to be 8000. I thought that was the standard?

[JohnG]

9800 (video & audio combined) I think? :confused:

[Sir Didymus]

Hi guys!

Here is what the standars say (source Dvd Demystified):

http://img107.exs.cx/img107/1411/image15ep.th.gif (http://img107.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img107&image=image15ep.gif)

Hope it is clear...
Anyway to summarise:
- Video should stay below 9.8 Mbps
- The sum of all of the audio tracks should stay below 6.144 Mbps
- The sum of all of the subpicture tracks should stay below 3.360 Mbps
- The sum of the Video, all of the audio, all of the subs, and the PCI (real time program control info) should be less than 10.08 Mbps

Cheers,
SD

[Vanderlow]

OH ok, so all is well I quess. Thanks.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Vanderlow
I thought the max bitrate for DVD was suppose to be 8000. I thought that was the standard? That is incorrect. The DVD standard is up to 9800 for video... BUT.. the total for all audio, video, and subpictures combined can't be more than 10.08Mbs -- so DVD starts at 9000 (to be safe) and subtracts the audio streams to get the maximum. Frankly the maximum almost never gets hit anyway, so it isn't much of an issue.


[ADDED] I guess I should have read further before blabbering on. Sir Didymus already answered this one :D

[Sir Didymus]

Originally posted by jdobbs
...Sir Didymus already answered this one :D

Well, the truth is that life, for a poor bug-hunter like the writer, is very hard in the last weeks, since RB is becoming almost perfect... :angry:

So I have nothing else to do, for spending my time, than providing some links to some nice people looking for that info...

:p

[johnhamler1]

max bitrate set at 8000 give me 8150 when encoding.
except this, rb0.8 with HC works perfectly...

just let you know.did 4-5 tests last week.set my targetsize, and it gives me a iso file at 4.06G(max is 4.35Gig ,correct???). I still have a marge of 280 mb.

doesnt it sound correct?

[jdobbs]

You're not setting the HC "One Pass CQ VBR (with analysis)" option are you? That will severely limit the accuracy of the output.

[johnhamler1]

no no, I have 2 pass, best quality, and the matrix.
run a test last night, HULK PAL, this time it overshoot the size of 250 meg.

with king arthur (pal) I was around 300mb below the 4.7 gig, and with the same settings with HULK I am around 250 mb above 4.7.

there are around 500mb difference in the final size between the 2 movies.why????
what I did for HULK (oversized), I used DVD shrink(after HC encoding) to resize the extra.

[Vanderlow]

My last encode was 4.27GB in size with .80 free.

[johnhamler1]

the size doesnt matter, it is the difference between sizes that bother me.

[jdobbs]

But the fact that they are different movies is exactly the reason they differ. That's why the default TargetSectors value in DVD Rebuilder is set to what it is.

You're not using OPV by any chance are you?

[SAPSTAR]

Originally posted by johnhamler1
the size doesnt matter, it is the difference between sizes that bother me.

That's a known pb with HCBatch, hank is working on improving the bitrate control. It`s not related at all with DVD-RB

[Vanderlow]

Originally posted by johnhamler1
size doesnt matter,

you really believe what your girlfriend been telling you?

[onesoul]

Originally posted by Vanderlow
you really believe what your girlfriend been telling you? lol, good joke there :)

[johnhamler1]

is there a fix at this time???

what is OPV???

[jdobbs]

OPV is One Pass VBR encoding.

[dragongodz]

johnhamler1 - you should try the new HC 0.13. its both faster and has better sizing. so restore the TargetSectors back to default and see how you go.