Six Feet Under quality problems/questions

[zeroglee]

Hi,
I've done a couple of Six Feet Under Season 1 backups. One with DVD Rebuilder and these settings -
DVD Rebuilder 0.72
CCE SP Trial 2.70.01.05
VBR_Bias 25 (default)
Quality Prec 16 (default)
VBR_Passes 3

And, one with DVD Shrink using Deep Analysis and Smooth Filter (ie. highest quality. 2 pass).

DVD Shrink says it's being compressed to around 55% of original size. Comparing scene by scene (played on PowerDVD on the computer) it seems like the DVD Shrink is slightly better. I don't know how to describe specifically how it looks slightly better but it just does. At worst I'd say quality-wise they look about the same.

My question is, am I doing something wrong? I followed the Doom9 guide and read the stickies about installation and setup. And from what I've read around, DVD Rebuilder/CCE is supposed to produce visibly better results than DVD Shrink at high compression. The original source material ain't that great I guess (interlaced, 4:3, lowish bitrate), but I dunno.. should I be expecting better results?
:confused:

[Fishman0919]

Not all the time will DVD-RB with CCE look better...MOST not all.

You might try lowering your VBR_Bias setting some (0-15 range). VBR_Bias is a limiter to the VBR, 0 is no limit and full bandwidth...the high you go the closer you get to CBR.

I do a lot of Season DVD's (CSI, 24, Shield....) and never have I had DVDShrink look better then CCE...but that's just me.

You can try Procoder, it is excellent for interlaced material.

[Boulder]

Six Feet Under is probably not interlaced, at least it had a film look in it when I saw some episodes on the TV.

[zeroglee]

Originally posted by Boulder
Six Feet Under is probably not interlaced, at least it had a film look in it when I saw some episodes on the TV.
:rolleyes:

I have the DVD's and I can tell you for a certainty that they're interlaced. The quality is, frankly, crap compared to what they showed on tv - it was also 16:9 originally on tv..

[TheSeeker]

Originally posted by zeroglee
Hi,
I've done a couple of Six Feet Under Season 1 backups. One with DVD Rebuilder and these settings -
DVD Rebuilder 0.72
CCE SP Trial 2.70.01.05
VBR_Bias 25 (default)
Quality Prec 16 (default)
VBR_Passes 3

And, one with DVD Shrink using Deep Analysis and Smooth Filter (ie. highest quality. 2 pass).

DVD Shrink says it's being compressed to around 55% of original size. Comparing scene by scene (played on PowerDVD on the computer) it seems like the DVD Shrink is slightly better. I don't know how to describe specifically how it looks slightly better but it just does. At worst I'd say quality-wise they look about the same.

My question is, am I doing something wrong? I followed the Doom9 guide and read the stickies about installation and setup. And from what I've read around, DVD Rebuilder/CCE is supposed to produce visibly better results than DVD Shrink at high compression. The original source material ain't that great I guess (interlaced, 4:3, lowish bitrate), but I dunno.. should I be expecting better results?
:confused:


You know... I would say for the most part that DVDRB/CCE combo is better (especially when viewing on a larger hdtv) sometimes you cant always see the artifacts dvd shrink introduces until you see it on one of those. But I will tell you what. I backed up Band of Brothers a while back before I really started using DVD Rebuilder, and I used DVD Shrink. I just recently got a 46 inch hdtv so I thought hey let me go back and see how they look on this tv... I expected them to look like crap, but to my complete surprise they actually look pretty darn good. So as a general rule of thumb dvd rb/cce usually produces a little better output but not always.

[Boulder]

Originally posted by zeroglee
:rolleyes:

I have the DVD's and I can tell you for a certainty that they're interlaced. The quality is, frankly, crap compared to what they showed on tv - it was also 16:9 originally on tv..
Are they truly interlaced, fieldshifted or just bad NTSC->PAL conversions? All cases show combing;)

NTSC or PAL?

[zeroglee]

Originally posted by Boulder
Are they truly interlaced, fieldshifted or just bad NTSC->PAL conversions? All cases show combing;)

NTSC or PAL?

heh, yeah may be one of those others you listed. When I first saw it on the comp I was thinking interlaced, but yeah there's other explanations for combing.

And, it's an Aussie DVD and we're a PAL country so I'm guessing it's PAL.

[TheSeeker]

It sounds like you could possibly benefit from some sort of IVTC action to cleanup this dvd and in turn gain some quality because of the dropped frames. However this is not done lightly and it is usually more of a pain in the ass then its worth. NOt to mention if your dvd is truly interlaced doing an ivtc will seriously mess it up. You would have to totally demux and run it through cce or quenc using an avs script to run telecide and decimate on it then re author with muxman or ifoedit. then replace the original vts's in the original files folder then update ifos with ifoedit then run it through dvd rebuilder. This is a method that should theoretically work. But Im not certain you would even need to do this. I would try using Canopus Procoder with dvd rb before I tried IVTC. You may find that all the extra time this takes (IVTC) isnt even worth the quality gain.

EDIT: and some dvd's just really truly suck (See Friends Season 1) and no matter what you do to them you are just going to have to put up with not good quality. I mean the originals of the friends dvd's even sucked.

[scharfis_brain]

@zeroglee:

could you make an unprocessed VOB sample avaiable, that shows interlacing?

maybe it is possible to revert the video to progressive to increase compressibility and quality.

[zeroglee]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
@zeroglee:

could you make an unprocessed VOB sample avaiable, that shows interlacing?

maybe it is possible to revert the video to progressive to increase compressibility and quality.

well, I don't really have much space to upload, maybe I'll try later though. Here's some screenies that I got anyway to show the interlacing -

[zeroglee]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
It sounds like you could possibly benefit from some sort of IVTC action to cleanup this dvd and in turn gain some quality because of the dropped frames. However this is not done lightly and it is usually more of a pain in the ass then its worth. NOt to mention if your dvd is truly interlaced doing an ivtc will seriously mess it up. You would have to totally demux and run it through cce or quenc using an avs script to run telecide and decimate on it then re author with muxman or ifoedit. then replace the original vts's in the original files folder then update ifos with ifoedit then run it through dvd rebuilder. This is a method that should theoretically work. But Im not certain you would even need to do this. I would try using Canopus Procoder with dvd rb before I tried IVTC. You may find that all the extra time this takes (IVTC) isnt even worth the quality gain.

EDIT: and some dvd's just really truly suck (See Friends Season 1) and no matter what you do to them you are just going to have to put up with not good quality. I mean the originals of the friends dvd's even sucked.

Yeah sounds like IVTC may not be worth it for all the trouble. I don't need perfect quality, just was of the thinking that the quality would be a bit better than it is. I'll probably try Procoder though and see how it goes.

btw, thanks guys for all the helpful replies

[zeroglee]

ok, I'm new to this forum and all. Guess you can only put one attachment per post so here's another screenie -

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by zeroglee
Hi,
I've done a couple of Six Feet Under Season 1 backups. One with DVD Rebuilder and these settings -
DVD Rebuilder 0.72
CCE SP Trial 2.70.01.05
VBR_Bias 25 (default)
Quality Prec 16 (default)
VBR_Passes 3

And, one with DVD Shrink using Deep Analysis and Smooth Filter (ie. highest quality. 2 pass).

DVD Shrink says it's being compressed to around 55% of original size. Comparing scene by scene (played on PowerDVD on the computer) it seems like the DVD Shrink is slightly better. I don't know how to describe specifically how it looks slightly better but it just does. At worst I'd say quality-wise they look about the same.

My question is, am I doing something wrong? I followed the Doom9 guide and read the stickies about installation and setup. And from what I've read around, DVD Rebuilder/CCE is supposed to produce visibly better results than DVD Shrink at high compression. The original source material ain't that great I guess (interlaced, 4:3, lowish bitrate), but I dunno.. should I be expecting better results?
:confused: I personally think so. If you are getting a better looking output at 55% with Shrink than with RB... you might want to try using a smoothing filter with RB just to do a more representative comparison.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by zeroglee
ok, I'm new to this forum and all. Guess you can only put one attachment per post so here's another screenie - What you are seeing in the pictures is the result of telecining. You aren't going to see that on a television screen -- computers often just don't play interlacing very well. If you output to your tv as progressive it won't appear at all.

Deinterlacing is almost always a bad idea.

If you try to IVTC you probably won't accomplish anything, as you will end up with a progressive sources at 23.976fps that will have to be telecined again to reach 29.97. There are a few exceptions (hard telecined sources).

[scharfis_brain]

If you try to IVTC you probabaly won't accomplish anything, as you will end up with a progressive sources at 23.976fps that will have to be telecined again to reach 29.97. There are a few exceptions (hard telecined sources).

but this 23.976fps can be encoded as progressive.
the telecine is done afterwards by rff flags.

this will gain a LOT in terms of quality and compression.

[jdobbs]

The point I am making is that if you are getting the pictures above you are already at progressive and 23.976. The combed frames are created by the telecining process. If you use DVD-RB you are keeping the original in the same format. So what do you accomplish by IVTC?

[scharfis_brain]

loadding a mpg directly into vdub will show you
the raw encoded frames.
this means, there should be NO combing visible, if it already has been hard telecined by rff-flags.

[jdobbs]

Hard telecined by rff flags? There is no such animal. Hard telecining doesn't use rff flags -- it doesn't have to, it's hard telecined.

Virtualdub will play it back the way it is fed to it. So if it is a progressive source that is telecined to 29.97, VDub will play it back that way.

[scharfis_brain]

so then, I confused the words.

so then again:

why should we compress as telecined INTERACED 29.97
if it is possible to an IVTC to achieve progressive 23.976fps encoding?

progressive 23.976fps is much easier to compress than 29.97fps telecined interlaced.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
so then, I confused the words.

so then again:

why should we compress as telecined INTERACED 29.97
if it is possible to an IVTC to achieve progressive 23.976fps encoding?

progressive 23.976fps is much easier to compress than 29.97fps telecined interlaced. You wouldn't. That's just the point. You don't have to do IVTC with DVD-RB, because it is encoded at it's original state. So if it were 23.976 (progressive with telecining) -- it will be output at 23.976 (progressive with telecining). With telecining the additional (combed) frames that make it 29.97 are inserted at playback.

Again -- the exception is hard telecined (poorly mastered) sources.

[jdobbs]

Actually I have to correct myself on VDUB. i just went a looked at its MPEG-2 reader and it looks like it plays progressive and ignores the RFF/TFF flags.

But I'm also confused because the example is using 1.5.1a -- when did MPEG2 support start in VDUB? I know it wasn't there in 1.5.1 build 15654.

[scharfis_brain]

With telecining the additional (combed) frames that make it 29.97 are inserted at playback.

if this is the case, one will not see any combs when loading the vob into vdubmod!

[jdobbs]

That would be true with version 1.5.10mod but that isn't what is being used in the example -- so I can't say. I can say I'd be really surprised if something a new as this was hard telecined. That would be pathetic authoring. Maybe it's hybrid and that is how VDUBMOD has to play it back...

If that's the case DVD-RB would do it correctly anyway.