Theora 4:4:4 10 bit

[morsa]

Is there any plan to have 4:4:4 sampling and 10 bit per channel support in Theora?
That way it could be the open source alternative to all this propietary stuff hanging around.

[akupenguin]

The Theora spec allows 4:4:4, though I don't know the status of its implementation. I don't think there are any plans to add 10 bit depth.

[E-Male]

and how could you feed it 4:4:4 data?

[akupenguin]

ffmpeg supports 4:4:4, so I see no reason why ffmpeg2theora shouldn't.

[morsa]

I asked about the 10 bit thing cause every new Video thing is going that way.(You know first comes Professional stuff then gets to consumer)

[bond]

morsa, best would be to try it yourself

in the theora sticky i link to two existing theora encoders (including source), you might want to give them a run

[morsa]

Well after all Theora I supports up to 4:4:4 and 8 bit per channel.
thank you.

BTW
I really can't understand why all the broadcast industry is moving towards 10 per color (component) channel and everytime I say that in this forum people here start thinking I'm crazy.

As examples new AVID open source CODEC called DNxHD supports 10 bit, Cineform's Prospect HD supports 10 bit, Black Magic's supports 10 bit, Bitjazz's Sheervideo codec supports 10 bit, Canopus EDIUS HD codec supports 10 bit and many more are coming with 10 bit support.

[b0b0b0b]

It took forever for an entirely yv12 encoding pipeline to develop. Just imagine how much longer for 4:4:4 w/ 10 bit depth. It just seems so much like a studio or broadcast format that I don't think a non-commercial venture would have it on the radar. Anyway, glad you found something that does it tho

[communist]

Originally posted by morsa
everytime I say that in this forum people here start thinking I'm crazy.
I'm not sure where you got that impression from but considering that you say it yourself..:
Originally posted by morsa
As examples new AVID open source CODEC called DNxHD supports 10 bit, Cineform's Prospect HD supports 10 bit, Black Magic's supports 10 bit, Bitjazz's Sheervideo codec supports 10 bit, Canopus EDIUS HD codec supports 10 bit and many more are coming with 10 bit support.
Its just becoming a standard in the industry.. why do you expect it to be available for consumers the very next day? Crazy?! ;)

Also for what purpose would you need a free 4:4:4 10bit codec if you cant create true 4:4:4/10bit footage? I mean if you could afford a HDCAM then a few more dollars for a codec would be just peanuts eh?
Maybe you just want to resample your DVDs/DV tapes to 4:4:4/10bit? :p ;)

[morsa]

Well, that is not exactly a problem of money.It is a problem of openness...
Those codecs aren't expensive BTW.What they lack is multiplatform support and good code.(and yes they are available to the consumer)
About the HDCAM thing, well, keep your eyes open cause I guess this year you'll get a big surprise.
Open source doesn't mean free, and open source doesn't mean you are forced to develop cheap stuff.
Avisynth is much more powerfull than any Professional stuff I've ever used. (on 8 bit material)

Anyway I still don't understand this feeling against 10 bit support inside the community.

[communist]

Originally posted by morsa
Well, that is not exactly a problem of money.It is a problem of openness...
Those codecs aren't expensive BTW.What they lack is multiplatform support and good code.(and yes they are available to the consumer)
Ok.. whatever that means.
About the HDCAM thing, well, keep your eyes open cause I guess this year you'll get a big surprise.
That would be? HDV? Its just MPEG2 4:2:0 (4:1:1). I dont see (real) HD gear prices dropping that much :confused:

Originally posted by morsa
Open source doesn't mean free, and open source doesn't mean you are forced to develop cheap stuff.
Avisynth is much more powerfull than any Professional stuff I've ever used. (on 8 bit material)

Anyway I still don't understand this feeling against 10 bit support inside the community.

There is no feeling against it. For what do people use XviD/DivX etc..? For creating DVD backups or creating TV/DVB captures encodes that they can put on CD/DVDs etc. . Whats the point of MPEG1/2 encoders? Creating (S)VCD and DVD compliant material.

I dont see that much (though there might be some) of a usage for a 4:4:4/10bit codec / editing environment for home users yet when you neither can create mentioned footage cheaply nor get HD gear to get such footage.
The average person here using AviSynth and all the codecs discussed here (and I might be wrong on this) just doesnt see any usage for it. If you're a pro and have the access to all the fancy stuff - sure you'll have lots of use for it but the average person here doesnt. So its not that were are saying "DONT develope codecs that support bla bla... !!!1" its just that even if these things were available tomorrow I would say "Thanks, but I dont need it."
I hope this is clear.

[morsa]

Ohh, sure I wasn't annoyed or something. :D

HDV: no, what is coming is not HDV, it is something far better than that coming from companies that aren't the usual ones.
I can't tell you more, cause I'm involved with it ;)
(Just to be clear I'm not from any of these companies but I'm working with a couple of them)

[communist]

The only other surprise I can think of would be that Kinetta (?) camera - is it becoming reality? ;)

[morsa]

Not exactly, think far cheaper ;) and same quality!!

Thing is: as long as the open source community don't want to accept the new standards for Image adquisition it will be really difficult to get cheaper cameras because of two things:
1-If a company itself develops a codec for that they will for sure make it closed source.
2-A closed source codec will never be as widely adopted as an opened one.

So here comes the dilemma.
So having Xiph behind something like that would be the best way for it.
Also because of its hardware support.
Another topic is the limited mind sometimes Video Ingeneers have....
Anyway I think this thread is dead.
Goodbye till I find an open source YUV 4:4:4 10 bit codec.

[albertgasset]

Originally posted by morsa
Is there any plan to have 4:4:4 sampling and 10 bit per channel support in Theora?
That way it could be the open source alternative to all this propietary stuff hanging around.

From the Theora I specification (http://www.theora.org/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf):


The Theora I format does not support interlaced material, variable frame rates, bit-depths larger than 8 bits per component, nor alternate color spaces such as RGB or arbitrary multi-channel spaces.

[...]

Support for increased bit depths or additional color spaces is not planned.


It's always good to have a patent-free and free software alternative, although maybe most people don't find it useful now.