JumpSS VTSM from VTS to VTS???

[jeanl]

People!
I'm puzzled. I've always believed that the JumpSS VTSM command could not be used to go from a VTSM to another VTSM (e.g., from VTS 1 to VTS 2, menu domains). I always thought that it was only to go from VMG to VTSM or from VTSM to VMG.
Now three strange things:
- dvd-replica isn't very clear about it (see this (http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/jumpss.php))
- DVDRemake Pro EDIT: NO! DVDLab Pro! allows you to put the command to jump from VTSM to VTSM.
- PowerDVD, Mark's tray DVD and IFOEdit Play DVD all three honor the command!!!! (i.e. jump from VTSM to VTSM, for example from VTS1 to VTS2). See this (http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1183103#1183103) thread...

I'm really puzzled here. I haven't tried on my standalone, but I'm really puzzled. I've read other sources that clearly state that it's not allowed to jump from VTSM to VSTM (in another VTS). I know that PgcEdit flags it as an invalid command.
Once again, for lack of clear DVD specs, I can't get a straight answer.
The thing is, if that were possible and valid (jumping from VTSM to VTSM), it would simplify things quite a bit. I'm afraid it's not though.

Has anyone a definitive answer to that (I'm guessing based on tests on standalone DVD players)?

Jeanl

[MackemX]

are you going to try it on your standalone player jeanl?

I would says it's just invalid that's getting through but i'm sure one of the guys here will know better :)

[jeanl]

Originally posted by MackemX
are you going to try it on your standalone player jeanl?

I would says it's just invalid that's getting through but i'm sure one of the guys here will know better :)
Yes, I"m trying tonight, just have to put the kids in bed!!!! My standalone is a sampo, pretty forgiving, but we'll see... I'll also try windvd...
Jeanl

[2COOL]

Originally posted by jeanl
I know that PgcEdit flags it as an invalid command.
I inserted this new pre command in my VTSM 5 Root menu and it jumped to VTSM 1 without problems in trace mode.

[30 06 00 01 01 83 00 00] 1 (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 1, Root menu (TTN 1)

[jeanl]

Originally posted by 2COOL

I inserted this new pre command in my VTSM 5 Root menu and it jumped to VTSM 1 without problems in trace mode.

[30 06 00 01 01 83 00 00] 1 (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 1, Root menu (TTN 1) [/B]
2COOL can you double check?! Isn't the command in red (flagged as invalid)? Doesn't trace complain?
I just tried again and it does complain (refuses to execute it!).
"""""" Warning, Illegal command found
This command will be skipped.

Jeanl

[jeanl]

The fun never ends!
I tried on my sampo DVD player, and it too honors the command!!!
Can someone make sense of this?
Either I'm completely missing something, or the sky isn't blue, even though I've read everywhere (for quite a while) that it is.

Has anybody seen a JumpSS VTSM straight vrom VTSMx to VTSMy in any commercial DVD? I can't remember seeing one, and I do remember seeing a lot of ping/ponging via the first play PGC, to avoid the limitation in all the commercial DVDs I've seen...

Jeanl

[2COOL]

Did another test from VTSM 5 root to VTSM 6 root. Didn't see any errors.

------> Entering VTSM 5 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 6, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 6 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM

How about this for a good example via PgcEdit's trace.


------> Entering VTSM 1 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (0:00) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 2, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 2 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 3, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 3 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 4, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 4 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 5, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 5 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 6, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 6 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 7, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 7 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
-- pre 1 : (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 8, Root menu (TTN 1)
-> sprm(5:Title number in VTS) = 1 (0x0001)
------> Entering VTSM 8 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM

[2COOL]

The thing about the DVD Specs is that we naturally rely on it being correct as it supposed to be the standards that everyone dealing with DVDs has to follow. The majority of us all don't have it so we have to look to respectable/credible sources. Rarely do we stumble on something that goes against the specs as we know it and the deviation is happening in front of our eyes, even after thorough testing. This adds a great tremendous confusion upon yourself. Sooner or later, when more and more credible people start agreeing with you, you start believing. Case and point: I have shown that a dummy PGC (http://home.tiscali.be/debie.roland/pgcedit/third_party/2cool/previous_chapter/intro.htm) can exist in the Title domain. Whereas the DVD specs, as we know it, says that it shouldn't happen.

P.S. I think mpucoder is right around the corner to comment on this.

[mpucoder]

Well, according to a guide published by Daikin it's not allowed. But I can see why it works in a lot of players. Unlike JumpTT, which is restricted to VMG, the JumpSS command is allowed in any menu. It is supposed to be used differently in a VTSM than in a VMGM/FP. But if you were writing the interprettor, what would you have the command do if byte 4 did not agree? Skip the command? Stay in the same titleset? Stop the player? Why even bother checking.

[blutach]

That's close enough to being "round the corner" mpucoder!

My 2 cents worth.... why take the risk? It's one extra link. Go to VMGM where you "should".

mpucoder said a couple of days ago (paraphrasing) "if something can wrong with a computer, it will eventually".

So, I will stay "on spec".

Regards to all

[2COOL]

Originally posted by blutach
mpucoder said a couple of days ago (paraphrasing) "if something can wrong with a computer, it will eventually". Something went wrong already. You forgot the "go". :p

[jeanl]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Did another test from VTSM 5 root to VTSM 6 root. Didn't see any errors.
2COOL I don't understand. I just tried again. I get the same command highlighted in red, and the trace does complain.
What the heck?! I think we're going to have to wait for r0lZ on that one... I'm using 0.4.8 beta2 but I'm pretty sure they're all the same in that respect.

I copied your command on my DVD, as the first pre-command of the root menu in VTS1. I get a red highlight and an error during the trace...
Jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by 2COOL
The thing about the DVD Specs is that we naturally rely on it being correct as it supposed to be the standards that everyone dealing with DVDs has to follow. The majority of us all don't have it so we have to look to respectable/credible sources. Rarely do we stumble on something that goes against the specs as we know it and the deviation is happening in front of our eyes, even after thorough testing. This adds a great tremendous confusion upon yourself. Sooner or later, when more and more credible people start agreeing with you, you start believing. Case and point: I have shown that a dummy PGC (http://home.tiscali.be/debie.roland/pgcedit/third_party/2cool/previous_chapter/intro.htm) can exist in the Title domain. Whereas the DVD specs, as we know it, says that it shouldn't happen.

P.S. I think mpucoder is right around the corner to comment on this.
OK then, we're faced with another example of a command that's normally not legit but seems to be accepted by many players (can't make any more tests, I only have 1 standalone). Then you have to ask yourself:
- Why in the first place was the command made not legit? What could be the rationale for preventing playback from jumping from one VTS menu to another one? If we find out that there's really no good technical reason (that would make that difficult to do for a player), then we can probably assume that most player won't complain...
- What do you do with this info? Do you simply ignore it (as blutach suggested) or do you take advantage of it?

Jeanl

[2COOL]

Originally posted by jeanl
I'm using 0.4.8 beta2 but I'm pretty sure they're all the same in that respect.I only have 4.7 final at the moment.

[blutach]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Something went wrong already. You forgot the "go". :p See? I TOLD you so!!!

[blutach]

@jeanl

Re your first question. You could ask why lots of commands weren't made more flexible to begin with. Why, for instance, we've got about 10 different jump codes to contend with, when intuitively speaking, 1 ought to be able to do the trick. All we are doing is changing program execution order, after all. They just made it complicated and we're stuck with it.

It's totally illogical the restrictions put on by the VM command set, but that's what was designed and the tens of millions of players worldwide must now march in order to it. I don't reckon they'll change soon either - backward compatibility and the like. Although you could imagine the day when players with "advanced coding response" are released and the DVD tests for that (like testing for the CPU processor type), and if so, executes the "advanced code".

Time to stop this mindless drivel from me.

I apologise for the crap (but it's typed already!!)

Regards

[Surf]

Hello all ye gurus of VTSM of PGC Land:p ,

PGCedit is almost becoming to be foolproof....

My two main goals, kid-movies, play upon insert, mine, straight to the main menu.

Whenever it allows, I insert the jump to menu or title line in the First Play. Otherwise, I use the Trace-mode and avoid all those jumps from fbi...blah blah blah...main menu.

The Q is, would I be facing in-compatiblity in future? Of course all the backups are playing beautifully in 2 JVCs....what if Toshiba comes along...or Hitachi...or...

Regards,

[2COOL]

Originally posted by Surf
The Q is, would I be facing in-compatiblity in future? Of course all the backups are playing beautifully in 2 JVCs....what if Toshiba comes along...or Hitachi...or...Do what I do. Have a handful of your backups to test your player at the store. ;) I had to when I was shopping around for a portable DVD player.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Do what I do. Have a handful of your backups to test your player at the store. ;) I had to when I was shopping around for a portable DVD player.
mmmm I like the idea!!! ;)
Jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by Surf

Whenever it allows, I insert the jump to menu or title line in the First Play. Otherwise, I use the Trace-mode and avoid all those jumps from fbi...blah blah blah...main menu.

Personally, to go to the main menu and avoid all the crap, I go to trace mode with preview, hit run, kill trace (red button) when I get to something I don't want, and kill playback. Then hit run again. It takes about 30s all in all!

The Q is, would I be facing in-compatiblity in future? Of course all the backups are playing beautifully in 2 JVCs....what if Toshiba comes along...or Hitachi...or...
Regards,
I think it's safe to say that if you use legitimate commands in legitimate places, you'll be fine. It's not as safe if you diverge from "strip compliance" (whatever that is, see the posts above!) because you can't guarantee how a player will respond.
Jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by 2COOL
I only have 4.7 final at the moment.
2COOL do you have the option Highlight Errors checked in PgcEdit? This would explain why the commands are not marked in red. It wouldn't explain why trace does not complain about it though (at least I don't think!).
Jeanl

[r0lZ]

Hum... The Trace mode checks are based on the routines used to highlight the errors. So, if the Highlight Errors option is not checked, some errors are not detected. In particular, the illegal jumps are detected only when the jump target doesn't exists, which is not the case here.

I am currently doing some tests of illegal JumpSS with my Sony. I will post the result soon...

[2COOL]

@jeanl

Originally posted by jeanl
2COOL do you have the option Highlight Errors checked in PgcEdit? This would explain why the commands are not marked in red. It wouldn't explain why trace does not complain about it though (at least I don't think!).
Jeanl You are correct. I didn't have it checked so I now see my red highlights.

@r0lZ

When I open another DVD, my highlighted toggled breakpoints are still there. Shouldn't they reset when working on another DVD?

[r0lZ]

Well. My sony is clear on the subject: jumping from a VTSM to another VTSM in another titleset doesn't work!
For example, with the code below, nothing is shown. IfoEdit shows Title 2, but it's not allowed.
VMG (VIDEO_TS.IFO)
------------------
VMG , First-Play PGC
********** pre commands:
1 (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 1, Root menu (TTN 1)
********** post commands:
********** cell commands:

VTS 1 (VTS_01_0.IFO)
--------------------
VTSM 1 , LU 1 (en):

VTSM 1 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
********** pre commands:
1 (JumpSS) Jump to VTSM 2, Root menu (TTN 1) !ILLEGAL!
********** post commands:
********** cell commands:

VTST 1:

VTST 1 , 1 TTN 1 (0:00) Title 1
********** pre commands:
********** post commands:
1 Exit
********** cell commands:

VTS 2 (VTS_02_0.IFO)
--------------------
VTSM 2 , LU 1 (en):

VTSM 2 , LU 1 (en) , 1 (dummy) RootM
********** pre commands:
1 (JumpVTS_TT) Jump to TTN 1 in this VTS
********** post commands:
********** cell commands:

VTST 2:

VTST 2 , 1 TTN 1 (0:00) Title 2
********** pre commands:
********** post commands:
1 Exit
********** cell commands:
Some players (and probably all software players) are able to jump from titleset to titleset. So, why is it not allowed to do it? My guess is that it's not allowed because the standard assumes that only one IFO is read and stored in memory at a time. And the informations on the layout of the titlesets on disk are stored in VIDEO_TS.IFO. Therefore, if the player has loaded, say, VTS_01_0.IFO, it doesn't know where to read VTS_02_0.IFO, and must go back to VIDEO_TS.IFO to be able to jump to another titleset.
Of course, on a software player, there is plenty of memory, allowing to load all IFOs at once.

[r0lZ]

Originally posted by 2COOL
@r0lZ

When I open another DVD, my highlighted toggled breakpoints are still there. Shouldn't they reset when working on another DVD? Yes. :o
However, it may be useful to have them still enabled if you reload the same DVD. Therefore, it's not a bug, it's a feature! :D
Seriously: I will change that in next version.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by r0lZ
Yes. :o
However, it may be useful to have them still enabled if you reload the same DVD. Therefore, it's not a bug, it's a feature! :D
Seriously: I will change that in next version.
OK but make sure they're still around if you reload from backup, that can be very useful.
Jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by r0lZ
Well. My sony is clear on the subject: jumping from a VTSM to another VTSM in another titleset doesn't work!
Some players (and probably all software players) are able to jump from titleset to titleset. So, why is it not allowed to do it? My guess is that it's not allowed because the standard assumes that only one IFO is read and stored in memory at a time. And the informations on the layout of the titlesets on disk are stored in VIDEO_TS.IFO. Therefore, if the player has loaded, say, VTS_01_0.IFO, it doesn't know where to read VTS_02_0.IFO, and must go back to VIDEO_TS.IFO to be able to jump to another titleset.
Of course, on a software player, there is plenty of memory, allowing to load all IFOs at once.
OK, I can understand your explanation. It would make sense (sort of) on the part of the people who came up with the specs, to disallow it to make it easier on the DVD manufacturers (in this case, probably saving memory). Still, you would imagine that VIDEO_TS.IFO has to be kept in memory at all time, so it shouldn't be a big deal to go find out where VTS_02_0.IFO is.
In any case, you're offering the first example of a player that does not allow such a jump, so this means that DVD-replica should be clearer about it, and that DVDLab Pro should not allow it.
I'll try to flag that in the appropriate forum...
jeanl

[zamarky1]

Hi Jeanl

could you please tell me what this means

Personally, to go to the main menu and avoid all the crap, I go to trace mode with preview, hit run, kill trace (red button) when I get to something I don't want, and kill playback. Then hit run again. It takes about 30s all in all!
what do you mean by "trace mode with preview".

i run trace but cant see anyway to run preview. I'm missing something here but what ? how do i get preview while in trace mode ?

Thanks

Mark

[Surf]

@zamarky1,
When you start the trace mode, a rectangle box opens up at the bottom left, and the bottom right has the log, yes? The top right hand corner of the left rectangle box has a small checkbox, yes? Check it and you'll get the auto-preview.

@2COOL & Jean,
thanks for the feedback. I have grown impatient to numerous jumps(to main menu) and stop at the very first killed PGC and attempt to insert "Oye! goto the main menu!" <<<LOL! Me too hopeless with techno mumbo jumbos...

LOL @"Have a handful of your backups to test your player at the store." Can you imagine when I do and the testing come to the end of the 1st Disc, it shows this on them huge TVtron(50 tvs cube).."PLEASE INSERT DISC2 TO CONTINUE" :D

[jeanl]

A pic is worth a thousand words, let's see if it works this time!


http://img11.exs.cx/img11/4022/trace9ut.png

in red is the thingy you need to check to get the preview...

Jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by Surf
@2COOL & Jean,
thanks for the feedback. I have grown impatient to numerous jumps(to main menu) and stop at the very first killed PGC and attempt to insert "Oye! goto the main menu!" <<<LOL! Me too hopeless with techno mumbo jumbos...

in many cases, inserting a quick jump command will work, especially if you do it after registers have been set, although you can't be absolutely sure that nothing will be broken later on (like, for example, you press the chapter menu button and you find yourself in the previews!!!)
Jeanl

[zamarky1]

Hi

Thank you

regards

Mark

[Surf]

Likewise Helen's worth launching a thousand ships(was posting @work):p .


you press the chapter menu button and you find yourself in the previews!!!

You really put a hex on me Jean:p .

Fooled around with "An American Tail" toon. A few of the extras upon exit would go to Chapter 1 of the main movie after I did the "jumpTT to Title 1" thingy!!

Counting on your support when I gather them logs in a new post?

Cheers

[jeanl]

Originally posted by Surf

Fooled around with "An American Tail" toon. A few of the extras upon exit would go to Chapter 1 of the main movie after I did the "jumpTT to Title 1" thingy!!

Typical! That's probably because you used a jump "unconditionally" (i.e., you don't use a register to make sure your jump only happens once, when the DVD is inserted)...

Counting on your support when I gather them logs in a new post?
Cheers
well, if you want to avoid these kinds of trouble, it's best to do it "the right way" as described in the guide, however annoying that can be... But sure, I'll take a loook!
Jeanl

[Surf]

I even printed your guide for the commuting home reading! Just like your guide, when I came upon the GPRMs and the SPRMs topic I skipped them just like the FBI warnings and the trailers. I have no clue as to how they work. Set gprm(7) =(mov)100. <<< NO idea what 100 means or is referred to.

"Head hanging low"

I noticed the update(on jumping straight to movie or menu) was dated December 15th. Don't you also need to update the PGCedit version? Or state version 0.4.3 onward?

I'm reprinting another copy and promise to re-read more diligently this time, facing the GPRM gremlins. I like to fish too, not just being fed:p . Hey, if successfull maybe I'll just post the result for comments/guidance.

P.S. If I am communicating in-appropriately with you at this thread, please let me know.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by Surf
I even printed your guide for the commuting home reading! Just like your guide, when I came upon the GPRMs and the SPRMs topic I skipped them just like the FBI warnings and the trailers. I have no clue as to how they work. Set gprm(7) =(mov)100. <<< NO idea what 100 means or is referred to.

This simply means, put the value 100 in gprm #7 (register 7 in the DVD player, simply a memory).


"Head hanging low"

I noticed the update(on jumping straight to movie or menu) was dated December 15th. Don't you also need to update the PGCedit version? Or state version 0.4.3 onward?

well ideally I should update the guide to reflect the newer versions of PgcEdit, but since the latest improvements do not affect the way the guide works, it isn't necessary to update the guide. I want to keep the guide images in sync with the version I'm mentioning at the top.


I'm reprinting another copy and promise to re-read more diligently this time, facing the GPRM gremlins. I like to fish too, not just being fed:p . Hey, if successfull maybe I'll just post the result for comments/guidance.

sure man, fishing is the only way to learn!


P.S. If I am communicating in-appropriately with you at this thread, please let me know.
:) No, no problem!
Jeanl

[Surf]

Success!! (for now)

Not by using your guide on GPRMs. I fear the folder is too screwed to be re-started from square one. What I did was trace the GOOD bonus clip which returns to the bonus menu properly and copy the exactly routing. Only one change required, from PGCN 1 to 6!!! Voila, all the rest of the 3 bonuses behaved properly now.

The culprits were all them GPRMs with the IFs and THENs commands in the Pre-command of the Main Title....I killed them. (head hanging low).

One leetle request Jean. Screen #3 of STEP #3, the crucial placement of the registers seem to be hidden by the dropdown. Would you be able to reproduce and replace that? I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the exact placement.
:p