[Bloody beginner] How to create a 5.1-audio test CD/DVD?

[testor]

Hello everybody,

I am awful new to all of this ...

Okay, the reason why I am here:

To correctly setup my little "Home Theater" I'D like to create my own test CD or test DVD. All that it should basically contain is 5 test tones:

100 Hz
300 Hz
1000 Hz
3000 Hz
10000 Hz


All right, that's pretty easy so far - I already created that tones on my computer. The problem now is: I want each of those 5 tones coded and burnt to CD or DVD in a way that they will be output to each of the loudspeakers of my HT separately. Like this:

100 Hz -> left frontspeaker, then
100 Hz -> center speaker, then
100 Hz -> right frontspeaker, then
100 Hz -> subwoofer, then
100 Hz -> right rear speaker, then
100 Hz -> left rear speaker


following the same for the remaining 4 tones.


Frankly, I have no idea how to do it ... Downloaded software like »BeSweet«, »OggMachine«, »AC3Machine«, but that even confuses me more.

Any hints or comments on this are appreciated.
Thanks

[killingspree]

ok... well you've got quite a bit of the work done already anyway. what you'll have to do now - or at least what i'd suggest you to do now, is to append silece infront and after thosee 100Hz clips so that, if saved in one file, they do not play all at the same time. you know, if every sample is 4 sec, left front will start at 0:00, center at 0:04, front right at 0:08, etc etc

afterwards you should have six *.wav files somehow like this: right_center_100Hz.wav, etc... that are all of the exact same length...

then check out these threads for some information on how to create an ac3 file from the seperate wav files:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83752&highlight=stereo+to+5.1
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87748&highlight=stereo+to+5.1
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87496&highlight=stereo+to+5.1

although i believe the first thread should suffice...

kr
steVe

[testor]

Originally posted by killingspree
afterwards you should have six *.wav files somehow like this: right_center_100Hz.wav, etc... that are all of the exact same length...Plus 6 more with 300 Hz and 6 more with 1000 Hz ... to end up with 30 files? Is that correct?

I will go through the threads you listed tomorrow.

Thanks -
testor

[killingspree]

correct...

[testor]

Originally posted by killingspree
oh btw my amazon.de wishlistAfter having a curious glance at your »wishlist« I wonder if one might switch over in die Deutsche Sprache just in case things will get too complicated ... :D

testor

[killingspree]

nope sorry, the forum is english only ;)

but if there's no way for you to communicate your problems in english I nmight be able to help you by pm, although it would be much better if this all got collected in this thread as it might be helping other members to solve the same problem!!

kr
steVe

[testor]

Originally posted by killingspree
but if there's no way for you to communicate your problems in english No no - you got me wrong. I was thinking about how to make things easier for you! :D :D

I'll check the threads later today.

testor

[killingspree]

Originally posted by testor
No no - you got me wrong. I was thinking about how to make things easier for you! :D :D

i think i'll be ok ;)

[testor]

Originally posted by testor
I'll check the threads later today.

All right - I stepped into the corridor and tried the door right next to me: »Additions and comments on "GUIDE LIST: Stereo-to-surround Conversion.."« which was leading me to a »guide (version 1.0b)« for »Plogue Bidule« posted by »daphy«. I was then led to a »needfulthings« website, where under »Guides« I found »First 2.0 to 5.x guide (how to transcode 2.0 to 5.x with Plogue Bidule)«. I downloaded that guide. Are you still with me?

I opened that downloaded guide which turned out to be some Shockwave presentation. While stepping through that one I came under the impression that it might make some sense to download that funny named software plus some related plugins and »layouts«, too. Needless to say that it couldn't be found on that needfulthings website, and therefore I became kind of uncertain whether or not that missing software might be the least bit needful at all :D

Googled for it, found it, downloaded it, installed it.

Went back to the Shockwave guide, went through it again and re-did simultaneously step by step in the application itself. Got stuck at the step where I should load a certain »layout« which I don't have: some »5.0_allinone ...«. The Shockwave screen shows lots of other layouts with very promising names like »5.1_Stereo2surround« which seems to be the exact thing I need - but I don't have that one either ...

What now?

testor

[SallyDog]

This might help "Bidule Layouts" (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/audio/layouts/) .

[testor]

Originally posted by SallyDog
This might help "Bidule Layouts" (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/audio/layouts/) . Argh - can't connect. Seems to be an ftp-account, requiring username and password ...

testor

[killingspree]

i can connect... but it looks like an empty ftp directory to me...

[SallyDog]

Weird.

It should, (and for me does), link directly to a rar file that contains all of Daphy's bidule layouts.

I don't know why it doesn't work for you :confused: :confused:

WILL a mod move this to the audio forum PLEASE :cool:

[killingspree]

sure thing...

[SallyDog]

Thanks Steve :)

[testor]

Well - great! But how should I proceed? Should I forget about this Bidule stuff? Or is there some reliable source for those layouts I seem to need?

testor

[ursamtl]

Daphy has told me he'd prefer if people not link directly to files, etc., as their location may change from time to time. http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org/ will always get you to the available files.

By the way, there's a German counterpart to this forum at http://forum.gleitz.info/

Regards,
Steve.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl
http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org/ will always get you to the available files.All right - finally found it: in »Projects«. Going to check it out later.

testor

[testor]

Finally managed to create my first AC3-file!

I was using BeSweetv1.5b26 with some helping tool named »SixWAVE2AC3«. It nearly took me 2 frustrating hours of unsuccessful attempts until I found out that all the involved folders have to follow some 200 years old DOS naming convention :devil::angry::devil:!!! With a folder named »The Wavs are here« you'll end up nowhere ...

testor

[testor]

What should basically be my next steps? The AC3 file has to be converted to some other format, right? Any hints or suggestions?

Thanks -
testor

[ursamtl]

You could either play it using a player that supports AC3 playback or else create a DVD using still images or video footage with the AC3 file as the soundtrack (this assumes you've created a regular AC3 file with a sampling rate of 48k and not an AC3-wave file with a sampling rate of 44.1k). For info on creating the DVD see doom9's guide section or some of the guides at www.videohelp.com.

[daphy]

I was using BeSweetv1.5b26 with some helping tool named »SixWAVE2AC3«.
please use the latest besweet1.5b29 as f.e. provided in the besweetinstaller @ needfulthings!
I personally fpund out that the best (freeware) AC3 results came with HeadAC3 ;)
if you need some 'German' help send PM

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
please use the latest besweet1.5b29Yeah - sure. While it didn't work (due to folder names with blanks) I first tried to pin down any possible reason for that - so I also changed the BeSweet version to the exact one mentioned in the »SixWAVE2AC3« guide ...

testor

[testor]

All right - seems I need one more push.

I converted 6 WAVs -> AC3 -> OGG. The latter one can even be played with WinAmp (although not with mulitichannel output).

What else do I need to do in order to end up with a CD or DVD containing that data that will be playable in 5.1 mode on my home DVD player?

Cheers
testor

[daphy]

DVDVideo:
a DVD Authoring -> IFOEDIT with dummy MV2 or DVDLab(pro) (makes the dummy automatically)

CD:
you need a AC3WAV or a DTSWAV

OGG won´t help you in that case at all :(

[ursamtl]

The easiest would be to use HeadAC3 to convert your 6 waves to an AC3-WAV file. Then burn this using a CD authoring program just like you would an audio CD. The CD authoring prog will see it as an audio file. When you play it back on your DVD player, your receiver's Dolby circuit will decode the 5.1 channels.

   6 waves > AC3-wav > > CD authoring program > Audio CD
      (must be played back on a DVD player only)

Note, your 6 wave files MUST be at 44.1kHz for this to work.

Steve.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl Then burn this using a CD authoring program just like you would an audio CD.[/B]Terribly sorry, but I don't even know for sure what's a CD authoring program ... Is it something like this Nero BurningRom stuff or something??

testor

[daphy]

right Steve, :D

DVD 48KHz!!!

[daphy]

yep, nero works fine with those WAV (DTS or AC3) files ;)

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
yep, nero works fine with those WAV (DTS or AC3) files ;) ... if you happen to have the right plugin, that is.

Burnt my AC3-files to Audio-CD using Nero 6 - but trying the CD with my DVD-player and my AV-receiver, the receiver's multichannel indicator pointed out »DolbyDigital PL« but only 2-channel-source, and my test tones which should go to the separate speakers one by one, rotating, somehow seem to go to all the speakers all the time ... :angry:

Any idea what went wrong?

testor

[ursamtl]

It's not a matter of a Nero plugin, any version should work. The data is written to CD as if it were audio data. If you try to play it back in a regular CD player, all you hear is digital noise. However, when the data is sent through a digital coax or optical connection to a receiver with Dolby Digital, the Dolby circuit recognizes the data as AC3 and decodes it correctly. Could it be that you don't have a digital connection between your DVD player and your AV receiver? If so then perhaps your DVD player is downmixing the AC3 to Dolby PL and sending it through the analog L and R connections.

If this isn't the problem, then it's probably something wrong with the AC3 file.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl
It's not a matter of a Nero plugin, any version should work.First, when trying to drag and drop the AC3 files to the Nero 6 burn application window, the message was something like »unsupported data format« ... Then I downloaded »nxMyAC3.dll« to the Ahead/Autoplugins folder ... after that, it worked.


Originally posted by ursamtl
Could it be that you don't have a digital connection between your DVD player and your AV receiver? If so then perhaps your DVD player is downmixing the AC3 to Dolby PL and sending it through the analog L and R connections.Well, I have a digital coax connection between DVD player and receiver, and the receiver indicates PCM input when I play my test CD.


When opening any of the AC3 files with Nero's wave editor, they look like this (here: the 100 Hz testtone file):

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/58/905358/1152_3533303539623331.jpg

testor

[testor]

Originally posted by testor
Then I downloaded »nxMyAC3.dll« to the Ahead/Autoplugins folder ... after that, it worked.Now that I think about it: Can it be this »nxMyAC3.dll« plugin simply converts AC3 to 2-channel data to enable Nero to handle it???

testor

[ursamtl]

I see the problem. You didn't create an AC3-wave file but just an AC3 file. In order to create a surround CD, you have to create a special kind of AC3 file. As far as I understand it, the process simply creates an AC3 with a wave header. This tells both the CD authoring program and the playback device that the data following the header is supposed to be wave data. The result is that the CD authoring software (Nero) thinks that the file is a regular audio file and writes it as such. Then the DVD player thinks the track is also a regular audio track and plays it back as such. However, if the data is then sent through a digital coax or optical connection to a receiver, the Dolby AC3 decoder circuit recognizes it as AC3 data and decoders it accordingly.

In other words, this process tricks the CD authoring software and the DVD player into thinking the file is a standard 2-channel audio file.

As Daphy pointed out, you can do the same thing with a DTS-Wave file if you have DTS encoding software.

To sum it up, to create a successful surround CD, the the followinhg conditions must be met:

The source wave files before encoding to AC3-wave must be at a sampling rate of 44.1kHz with a resolution of 16 or 24 bits (encoding software truncates 32-bit files to 24).
The encoded file must be created as an AC3-WAVE or DTS-WAVE file (read your encoding software's documentation to figure out how to do this. It's usually just a checkbox or dropdown list choice somewhere in the software).
The file must be written to CD as if it were a regular audio track.
The CD must be played back on a DVD player that has a digital coax or optical connection to a receiver with a Dolby Digital or DTS decoding circuit (neither of these will decode the opposite format, but only its own format). This digital connection bypasses the digital to analog converter circuits in the DVD player, thus preserving the surround encoding information.

It took me a couple of tries to get this right, but the results were worth it!

Good luck,
Steve.

[daphy]

hehe :D
Steve you´re right @ all points!

@testor

decode your AC3 into six single WAVs (for each channel one), then downsample the files to 44.1KHz then encode em to AC3WAV and burn em as AudioTracks to an AudioCD, that´s it! :o
Don´t forget to plug your DVDPlayer digitally for replaying!

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
decode your AC3 into six single WAVs (for each channel one)Well, I'd better keep to those 6 WAVs I created in the beginning.

Originally posted by daphy
then downsample the files to 44.1KHzI guess they are still 44.1 kHz.

Originally posted by daphy
then encode em to AC3WAVDon't know how to do this ... Help!

testor

[daphy]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by daphy
then encode em to AC3WAV
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know how to do this ... Help!

feed the file to HeadAC3, use output AC3-WAV :rolleyes:

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
feed the file to HeadAC3 [...]What you mean, the file? Isn't it once again six WAVs files I have to handle??? How to feed all of them together into HeadAC3 to get one AC3-Wave?? :rolleyes: :confused:

testor

[daphy]

What you mean, the file? Isn't it once again six WAVs files I have to handle???

I see you mean 6 single WAVS ;)
okay, take the mux - list option from besweet (see FAQs)

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
I see you mean 6 single WAVS ;)
okay, take the mux - list option from besweet (see FAQs) Hey - you folks really get the knack how to explain things ...:D I am not that stupid normally ...

So are you saying I could use HeadAC3 with a mux-list option telling the application which files in use as input? Or do you mean I should use BeSweet instead to convert my 6 WAVs to AC3WAV?

Thanks for your patience!

testor

[daphy]

BeSweet ;)
but it should also be possible to mux the single WAVs into one 6WAV (-> beware of the channel order L,R,C,LFE,SL,SR) by BeSweet and than encoding with HeadAC3 (for better quality) :p

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy
I see you mean 6 single WAVS ;)
okay, take the mux - list option from besweet (see FAQs)

Careful with this. As I understand it, MUX multiplexes the six files together into a multichannel wave (i.e., all six channels play simultaneously) whereas LST concatenates the six files into one file but they play one after the other as one long mono file.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl
[...] MUX multiplexes the six files together into a multichannel wave (i.e., all six channels play simultaneously) [...]Well, simultaneously would be fine, as my WAVs' «internal timing» is based on that.

I am going to try that out tonight:
6 single WAVs -> BeSweet -> one 6WAV, then
one 6WAV -> HeadAC3 -> AC3WAV

testor

[testor]

Originally posted by testor
6 single WAVs -> BeSweet -> one 6WAVBy the way - it seems to me that BeSweet tends to lower the level of some of the WAVs: the one for the Center for instance. Should I worry about that - or is it OK for some reason? For my testing later, it is absolutely necessary to have the same level for all 6 channels on the CD!

testor

[daphy]

I would play with the postgain option while making the 6WAV file (besweetGUI) 95% is (in my opinion) a good value :rolleyes:

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
BeSweet ;)
but it should also be possible to mux the single WAVs into one 6WAVIt should be possible?! Just tell me exactly how. Take any 6 WAVs and convert them with BeSweet to a »6WAV«. And then please tell me how you did it.

I tried the BeSweet »Wizard« which after the »Go« prompted me with some editor window ... why the hell?! Of course it did not output anything like a 6WAV then. Tried the BeSweet GUI then ... I didn't even manage to input my six single WAVs ... What the hell of an user friendly application that is :angry:

testor

[daphy]

Originally posted by testor
I tried the BeSweet »Wizard« which after the »Go« prompted me with some editor window ... why the hell?!
FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15738) :readfaq: :angry:
31. i have six mono waves and would like to encode it to a multichannel ac3/ogg. can BeSweet do that ?
yes. you need to create a ".mux" file, i.e., a textfile with the name of the mono waves :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
g:\channelFL.wav
g:\channelC.wav
g:\channelFR.wav
g:\channelSL.wav
g:\channelSR.wav
g:\channelLFE.wav
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then feed it to BeSweet : -core( -input channels.mux ... )

31b. and what's the advised channel ordering for producing 6chwav/6chaiff ?
it's :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
g:\channelFL.wav
g:\channelFR.wav
g:\channelC.wav
g:\channelLFE.wav
g:\channelSL.wav
g:\channelSR.wav
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...

It should be possible?! Just tell me exactly how. Take any 6 WAVs and convert them with BeSweet to a »6WAV«. And then please tell me how you did it.
don´t talk this way :sly:

I start losing interest ...

[testor]

Originally posted by daphy
I start losing interest ... Interest in what? In helping me creating a 5.1-test-CD?? This is your »interest« - helping me to reach that goal? Really?!

This thread is about 12 days old, I mentioned quite clearly that I am a real beginner to all of this - and what I want (creating a 5.1-test-CD) is sure enough a very easy 30-minutes-process to all you experts, am I right? With the help and the »interest« of this forum it was not possible within 12 days to lead me to a working 5.1-test-CD - which is a bit disappointing, to say the least.

I am sure: If I was one of you experts, and if I had »interest«, this bloody beginner with his funny 5.1-test-CD would be checked and done in one day.

Just my two cents about »interest«.

Thanks anyway
testor

[daphy]

... and did you finally reach your goal? ;)

BTW: every single question of you has been answered within a couple of hours by the community - I don´t share your opinion @ all. Sometimes all answers could be found on older threads and FAQs (like the last question of you), I hope you don´t want us to read to you ;) .
Generally if someone has still problems after reading all this stuff he could (always) ask for details and ideas for the next step:
et voilà (the responds time within a couple of hours should be ok, don´t you think? :rolleyes: )

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by testor
I am sure: If I was one of you experts, and if I had »interest«, this bloody beginner with his funny 5.1-test-CD would be checked and done in one day.

Just my two cents about »interest«.

Thanks anyway
testor

Testor,

I understand your frustration when things don't work quickly or easily, but your tone is starting to sound almost as if you somehow feel that we are responsible for your lack of results or that it's our fault. Neither daphy nor I are "experts" per se. We're simply hobbyists who enjoy experimenting with audio/video technology and then sharing in the discussions in this forum about it all.

I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but all I say is that my "interest" is in participating in this community since it has helped me a great deal with my hobby. If someone has problems even after others help then all I can say is retrace your steps, reread the messages, read the help files that come with the software, read related stuff elsewhere, practice the different techniques, etc., In other words, take responsibility for your own experiments. We'll try to help when we can but you have to do most of the work.

Good luck.
Steve.

[testor]

Daphy, Steve - I'd like to apologise for my tone and for flipping out. I guess it could have something to do with the fact that on my job (Ads, Prepress) I am used to work with professional software, and it is part of my responsability to keep things functioning there, with any problems to be solved very rapidly. On my job I am also engaged in teaching other people how to »get along« with Prepress related computers and software - where it is mandatory to give sufficient advice leading to a given result within hours ... Of course: My fault to compare those two environments. So, sorry once again.

May be I'll be able to kind of compensate the forum for my rant later. If the day will come when I finally have a perfect working 5.1-test-CD in my hands :D then I will write a detailed step-by-step resume of the whole process to be posted here.

Thanks
testor

[ursamtl]

No problem. I can certainly relate to high-pressure work environments. I look forward to your contributions to the forum once you get your test CD worked out. In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask if you have questions and we'll continue to help as best we can.

Have a good weekend!
Steve.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl
In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask if you have questions and we'll continue to help as best we can.Thanks, Steve. Well, here we go :D

I believe I orderly created some 6CHWAVs using BeSweet. The log say this:


BeSweet v1.5b29 by DSPguru.
--------------------------

Logging start : 01/28/05 , 15:07:43.

C:\Programme\GordianKnot\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe -core( -input g:\Cool\Test51\MonoTest\100er\100er.mux -output g:\Cool\Test51\MonoTest\100er\100er.wav -6chwav -logfilea C:\Programme\GordianKnot\BeSweet\BeSweet.log )

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : g:\Cool\Test51\MonoTest\100er\100er.mux
[00:00:00:000] | Output: g:\Cool\Test51\MonoTest\100er\100er.wav
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 44.1KHz
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[00:02:24:994] Conversion Completed !
[00:02:24:994] Actual Avg. Bitrate : 4233kbps
[00:00:21:000] <-- Transcoding Duration

Logging ends : 01/28/05 , 15:08:04.



But then, for the next step, HeadAC3 does not give me the option to chose AC3-WAV as output if I define any of the freshly created 6CHWAVs as input :-(. The pull-down is listing AC3-WAV, ok, but selecting it won't stick - it jumps to WAV immediately after. No idea why that is. Do I need specific additional DLLs for converting 6CHWAVs to AC3-WAV?

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/58/905358/1152_3065616535336634.jpg


Cheers
testor

[daphy]

use the latest version of headac3 this one is buggy and was replaced a long time ago -> on needfulthings you will find the latest (maybe down we´re about to change some hardware....)

the ac3enc.dll is missing but again: don´t use this version of HeadAC! :scared:

see PM ;)

temp. download (http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=021BBVNXMP7OE3IHCPJTUTY6R3) link to the latest HeadAC3 (freeware), same as at needfulthings

Edit: AC3WAV bug is the same as in the old version - I will contact programer - sorry folks :angry:

[testor]

So there's finally some progress! Just created my first 5.1-Audio-CD :cool: :) :cool: :)!!

After pressing PLAY on the DVD-player the AV Receiver happily indicated a 5.1 source! The test tones can be heard from the respective loudspeakers ... great!

The procedure was roughly like this:
• Feeding the 6 mono WAVs via MUX-listing into BeSweet to be converted to AC3
• Feeding those AC3s into HeadAC3 to be converted to AC3-WAVs
• Burning the AC3-WAVs to Audio-CD using NERO

Still have to verify if the volume level of all channels remain unchanged throughout the process.

Big thanks!!
testor

[ursamtl]

Well congratulations testor. Glad to hear it worked out. It'll be interesting to see how your level results turn out.

[testor]

Originally posted by ursamtl
It'll be interesting to see how your level results turn out. Well, by now I wonder if that level issue should bother me at all. There seem to be some level corrections in my AC3-WAVs, like

Dialog normalization: -27 dB
Center mix: -3 dB
Surround mix: -3 dB

But may be that is sort of a standard correction that is applied to all industry made 5.1 material? In that case I should not try to re-correct that for my testing, right?

testor

[ursamtl]

Well depending on your encoder, you can shut these corrections off. For example, the -3dB on the surrounds is, as I understand it, meant to counteract a +3dB boost that professional cinema soundtracks feature to account for their large viewing room size. For home threatre, it's certainly not required. Dialog normalization depends on your source. If you check the other threads on here or do a search, you'll find methods for calculating dialog normalization levels depending on the average loudness of your source material. Check the sticky thread on AC3 encoding. It provides a lot of great information.

Regards,
Steve.

[daphy]

The procedure was roughly like this:
• Feeding the 6 mono WAVs via MUX-listing into BeSweet to be converted to AC3
-> the conversation can be done with HeadAC3 -> 6WAV to AC3, please try out which sounds better :rolleyes:
• Feeding those AC3s into HeadAC3 to be converted to AC3-WAVs
DarkAvenger (http://forum.gleitz.info/member.php?u=921) had confirmed this way as only working solution - AC3 ->AC3WAV should work lossless, but he is about to rewrite the whole engine, so stay tuned.

Link to the German thread (http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?p=168646#post168646)

[ursamtl]

Thanks for the info, daphy. My less than rudimentary German is getting even worse with age, but did you ask him if the rewrite will support 32-bit files?