Want highest quality, time no issue

[apfraats]

If I want to use RB , and want to get the highest possible quality of a compressed DVD, what configuration should I USE ?


Thx in advance

[dannyv]

Originally posted by apfraats
If I want to use RB , and want to get the highest possible quality of a compressed DVD, what configuration should I USE ?


Thx in advance

You would want to use CCE as the encoder and set vrb to 10 quality to 4 and passes to 3 under the advanced cce settings. This seems to work good for all materal. Anything over 3 passes is a waste of time because you don't get much of a quality boost after 3 passes.

[apfraats]

Should I buy the commercially available one ($58), or can I use antother CCE encoder ?


Thx

Toine

[eriksen76]

I have mine set to:

VBR_bias=20
Quality_prec=16

Which is default i guess. I usually choose 6-8 passes

Are the vbr and quality prec ok then? Or should I lower them??

/Eriksen76

[dannyv]

Originally posted by apfraats
Should I buy the commercially available one ($58), or can I use antother CCE encoder ?


Thx

Toine

$58.00 seems reasonable.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by eriksen76
I have mine set to:

VBR_bias=20
Quality_prec=16

Which is default i guess. I usually choose 6-8 passes

Are the vbr and quality prec ok then? Or should I lower them??

/Eriksen76

Lower vrb to 10 and quality to 4 and only do 2 or 3 passes. Your encodes will get done in a fraction of the time and you most likly will not see a difference in quality. Give it a try what do you have to loose.

A 2 hour movie done in 2 pass will get done in about 2 hours at at 3 times about 3 hours and at 8 times it takes close to 8 hours. This is based on if your doing it on an AMD 3200 such as mine.

[NobbyNobbs]

If he buys the basic version, all the advise about several passes is rather redundant:D

[dannyv]

Originally posted by NobbyNobbs
If he buys the basic version, all the advise about several passes is rather redundant:D

Not really it will allow you to do up to 2 passes and I find my settings work fine with 2 pass. In fact I do all my movies with 2 pass and tv series with 3 pass. I mean if you can afford $2000.00 then buy ccese.

[apfraats]

Now I get messed up a bit.

What should I buy/get to do the multi pass thing with quality settings etcetra ?




Thx.

Toine

[jdobbs]

Get CCE Basic. The difference between 2 pass encode and any more is negligible. Cinemacraft's encoding engine is the best on the planet, and the $58 version has essentially the same engine as the $2000 version (minus a host of bells and whistles, none of which apply to DVD backups with DVD-RB).

If you want to stay with freeware, QuEnc is a very, very good encoder.

[apfraats]

thx, this was the answer I was looking for.

If I got the 0006 error when doing a rebuild get fix, I will use CCE BASIC. Now I indeed use Quenc 0.59 alpha, but as long as I get the error there is nu use to spend money on things that don't / won't work.



Toine

[candsh]

I have CCE Basic and I don't think anyone on the planet is making better or more touble free backups than I am. Couldn't be happier with the CCE Basic/DVD RB combo. When everyone else is complaining about this problem and that problem, I am making backups of the same things TROUBLE FREE !

[jdobbs]

Hmmm... I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 700-800 different DVDs that have been tested through DVD-RB and I've never gotten a 0006 error that I didn't cause by accidentally aborting an encode.

I don't know what else to say.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by apfraats
thx, this was the answer I was looking for.

If I got the 0006 error when doing a rebuild get fix, I will use CCE BASIC. Now I indeed use Quenc 0.59 alpha, but as long as I get the error there is nu use to spend money on things that don't / won't work.



Toine You're using the alpha version of one piece of software to feed the beta version of another... not sure that's wise. You might try using QuEnc v.57 -- as it may be a little more solid.

EDIT: I changed the version number -- I'd mistakenly said "QuEnc v.58" when posting this, what I meant was v0.57 (stable).

[Rockas]

I don't there's a difference between QuEnc 0.58 and 0.59's "engine"... the only difference is that:

"Just updated again Only a minor update, but I wanted to add an "I"nformation button to QuEnc so you can see the length of the AVS file along with the resolution.

-Nic"

keep it UP

[jdobbs]

If you look at libavcodec.dll you'd know how configurable it is.... lots of parameters. Nic's code does all the AVISYNTH interfacing and setting of those parameters.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Nic's latest version -- only that it is an alpha. That should speak for itself.

[UninTY]

jdobbs......

what is your opinion on Bias and Qual Prec settings, if, like the original poster stated, "time is no issue"

I get great results with the default settings, but is there a way to get even better quality if I'm willing to wait for it???

[Fishman0919]

This is from CCE SP 2.70 manual about VBR_bias

"2.9.4 V/C (VBR/CBR) : Fluctuation of the bit
allocation
In VBR streams, Cinema Craft Encoder SP performs bit allocation
balancing the quality of image on its own valuation basis. The valuation
basis can be changed by V/C value between 0 and 100. The
initial value is 30. As V/C becomes smaller, a stream becomes more
like VBR keeping the quality of the image with heavily up and down
in bitrate. As V/C becomes larger, a stream becomes even like CBR
keeping the bitrate constant but without stability of the image quality."

so if you set VBR_bias to "0" then it is full VRB no limit in bandwidth
the high you set VBR_bias "10, 15, 25..." the small the bandwidth

Hope this helps

[jdobbs]

The defaults are best for most encodes. Only adjust in circumstances where you are encoding at extremely low bitrates.

[jdobbs]

Made a correction. I'd quoted QuEnc 0.58 as the "stable" version when I'd meant to say "v0.57"... I've done a lot of testing with 0.57 and it appears to work quite well.

[archaeo]

Only adjust in circumstances where you are encoding at extremely low bitrates

In that case would you lean toward setting VBR bias LOWER (to allocate more bits to high demand areas as needed and less to low demand areas)?

What about Quality Prec settings in low bitrate situations? Higher or lower (from default)?

[Rockas]

Made a correction. I'd quoted QuEnc 0.58 as the "stable" version when I'd meant to say "v0.57"...
A-HA :)

[Plutissimo]

The defaults are best for most encodes. Only adjust in circumstances where you are encoding at extremely low bitrates

What is considered "extremely low bitrates? When is it best to change from the default VBR and Quality settings (VBR_bias=20
Quality_prec=16)?

[kleenr]

I'm no expert by any means, just an avid DVD backer-upper, and I just wanna add my two cents:

I've been doing all of my DBDrb+CCE backups at six passes, with the default Quality_Prec and VBR_bias settings.

Using the same source material (The Sopranos: Season 4, Disc 2), I just did a couple of test backups at three passes, and I can notice a quality difference. It's not vastly worse, but enough for me to stick to six passes on the important stuff.

I have, however, seen comparisons of six to nine pass backups, and they appeared identical to me.

[archaeo]

What is considered "extremely low bitrates?

From what I've seen, bitrates lower than 1200 would be extremely low.

[Sir Didymus]

Well, it is quite easy to say how high is the "highest" bitrate, since in the DVD standard the video elementary stream is limited to 9.8 Mbps...

Not so easy to tell how low can be the "lowest"...
It is very depending, IMHO, on the source material...

Quite interestingly, the CCE manual is indicating the following bounds as a suggestion for adopting the embedded Very Low Bitrate and Ultra Low bitrate Quantisation Matrices:

The first one is intended to be used when the bitrate is 4 Mbps or less.
The second when the bitrate is 2 Mbps or less...

Cheers,
SD

P.S. Of course never take these suggestion too strictly: my experience is that standard matrix is performing very well if bitrate > 3000 Kbps

[Plutissimo]

Thanks all!

I will stick to the default DVD-RB CCE settings and stick to average bitrates >3000 Kbps. It seems like that would work fine for me. And if the bit rates get lower, then I'll just split the DVD into two discs.

Regarding seeing the bitrate, I usually look at the log of the "prepare" phase of DVD-RB. This tells me what the output is going to be, if I am not mistaken. This is of course not the fastest method but it works(prepare takes about 8-9 min on my ageing PC).

[jdobbs]

I don't think there is a faster way -- you can't really compute a bitrate without scanning the entire source.

A lot depends upon the movie -- I've gotten excellent results with movies at under 2500Kbs.

[tOrCh]

You would want to use CCE as the encoder and set vrb to 10 quality to 4 and passes to 3 under the advanced cce settings. This seems to work good for all materal. Anything over 3 passes is a waste of time because you don't get much of a quality boost after 3 passes.


for me that config works great...better than the default, at least with the day after tomorrow did a great job in difficult areas, and no blocks, and that stuff.... :)

[elizerrojas]

i just read every post on thid thread and i don't see the HC "word" anywhere. what's up with that? HC is as good as CCE (sometimes better) and it is FREEEEE.

[hank315]

@elizerrojas
Well, there was no HC at the time this thread started :D

[elizerrojas]

ups. sorry. glad there is now

[johnhamler1]

HC is actually the best encoder unless you can prove me it is not!!!!

go spend 58$ or 2000$ in CCE, !!!

:)

[elizerrojas]

HC is actually the best encoder unless you can prove me it is not!!!!

go spend 58$ or 2000$ in CCE, !!!

:)
who are you arguing with? i'm with you on that one.

[apfraats]

i just read every post on thid thread and i don't see the HC "word" anywhere. what's up with that? HC is as good as CCE (sometimes better) and it is FREEEEE.


Comparing HC to the 'real thing' so not CCE BASIC but CCE SP , with several passes.

Conclusion: CCE is much qiucker and it's better. (and much more expensive).


Do you really think that someone can write a better freeware encoder than CCE SP that's wriiten in assembly-language, tailored for every CPU type (even not running on some :) ), with years of experience that come with a team of developers and professional (and indeed commercial) software writing ????


Yep, just dream on..........

[magic144]

just to ask a hopefully uncontroversial question,

but isn't the default value for VBR_bias 25 and not 20
(I don't remember having changed it on my installation, and it's 25 there, and in the Help file example)

???

[apfraats]

I don't think there is a faster way -- you can't really compute a bitrate without scanning the entire source.

A lot depends upon the movie -- I've gotten excellent results with movies at under 2500Kbs.



I trust you in many many many, if not almost all things.

BUT: Even with CCE SP and X+10 passes with source material at 2500 Kbps, and having EXCELLENT (you know the word ??) results ????

Sorry, I just don't believe that.

Maybe the movies you tried were cartoons or animations :) ???
Or should we donate more to you, so you can get a large PIXEL PLUS
philips TV-SET were you even clearly can see the slightest imperfection that I even notice on COMMERCIAL SOURCE MATERIAL MORE THAN ONCE ????
and on which you can do a 'freeze picture' to clearly study every single frame (or set of frames if you wish) ?
Or maybe you were so tired of all youre good and hard work on DVD-RB-PRO, that youre eyes were so tired they failed to notice ??

If you can make EXCELLENT QUALITY out of 2500 Kbps source material, you have designed a new (de)compression method, on which you immediately should get youre patents pending.

Just making a bit of fun out of it, but I personally even reject all below 4000 Kbps. Below that is 'MISSION IMPOSSIBLE' for the AVERAGE movie. Maybe, just maybe I will get down to 3500, if it's a cartoon or something like that.


And don't forget: I just like to use some buttons on me DVD-remote, like STILL, STEP FORWARDS, STEP BACKWARDS, SLOW FORWARD, SLOW BACKWARDS and to make it just more terrible, the ZOOM button, which can go up to 16*. Even with the ZOOM alone, just every MPPEG2 fails, even at 9,800 Kbps !! At 8* you can already play the game: Count the blocks......
(on my pixel+ 81 cm TV-set, and it's not hardware related cause zooming a test-dvd will 'still' testimages and stepping dark to bright colors, worked just fine in every test image and case).

[jdobbs]

Actually cartoons are harder because they have sharp edges....

Sigh...

I'd say you are mistaken, then... and leave it at that. 2500Kbs is NOT too low to get excellent results. That's the beauty of VBR. The bitrate needed is dependent upon the source -- and making blanket decisions based solely upon bitrate is simply wrong. Did you know that most original commercial DVDs are encoded at an average bitrate in the 4,000Kbs range?

[apfraats]

:D Actually cartoons are harder because they have sharp edges....

Sigh...

I'd say you are mistaken, then... and leave it at that. 2500Kbs is NOT too low to get excellent results. That's the beauty of VBR. The bitrate needed is dependent upon the source -- and making blanket decisions based solely upon bitrate is simply wrong. Did you know that most original commercial DVDs are encoded at an average bitrate in the 4,000Kbs range?


I did the movie HITCH full DVD and it was under 3000 Kbps. 3 passes (2 effective ). I preprocessed it because of it's stupid ACrrOS protection or something like that, made by Sony (They REALLY think they can prevent people from making ILLEGAL MASS PRODUCTION copies, with that stupid protection scheme and sell it for big bucks at the movie companies (or authoring ones). Even silly me can crack this protection scheme, just using DVDDECRYPTER (which has died forever after 3.5.4) and/or ANYdvd (which will be there for quite a while). I had to remove the dummy sectors introduced by bypassing ACrrOS because DVD-RB was getting lost there completely. It was the stucture, not DVD-RB-PRO, so I removed the dummy cells (DVDREMAKE-PRO) and all went fine. Just under 3000 Kbps and correct matrix used. But the result was far from EXCELLENT !. Simply too low bitrate. You can use VBR but VBR can't do unlimited magic. The average bitrate will be low alltogether. Sure if you make a movie and only display in white letters in the middle of the screen "THIS IS A MOVIE", you can probably do with 100 Kbps or less. And record up to 100 hours or something on a DVD 5 ;)

And you say there is commercial material in the 4000 Kbps range, and I said something like: "Even Commercial DVD's show sometimes far from EXCELLENT pictures". And 4000 average is not the same as under 2500.... For me about 4000 average is a borderline case in most situations. Of course you are right that the source properties are important too as I mentioned in the "THIS IS A MOVIE" example.

And Cartoon do well on low bitrates. Even if they have sharp edges they have a lot less vectors to represent changes from one frame to another. And that can easily be catched with a good encoder using low bitrate (prec setting in CCE SP).

Probably we have some different definition of what EXCELLENT is. VIEWABLE is something else then EXCELLENT !

I even hate Digital TV, because despite of a little more noise, the analogue picture on the Cable is more than just sometimes clearly better than the 'digital' signal from my cable decoder, which should be DVD-quality according to the advertisements of my cable provider :D

And the TV-set I'm having is very very sensitive for abnormalities in picture-signal. That's the trick Philips is doing with Pixel+. It's nothing like 'fake' sharpness, but derived from the original signal by a special chip. This way you see every little dirty detail. If you switch the pixel+ off, you see the huge difference and it suddenly looks like someone just turned the picture completely out of focus........

It's just what youre used to watch at. I'm spoiled already, and things will only be worse with the better LCD and PLASMA screens comming up. Even HDTV has rissen from the grave here....

[jdobbs]

You know... I've had enough of these discussions with you to know that it is better just to walk away. I know the difference between EXCELLENT and GOOD ENOUGH. I am quite confident that I am knowledgable in this subject matter. I'll end this discussion right here.

[magic144]

that's a shame jdobbs,

I wanted to hear more about this EXCELLENT 81cm super-duper SPECIAL Pixel+ TV that highlights and accentuates every GENUINE flaw in tremendous, zoomed detail for frame-by-frame viewing AGONY

if I was blessed with such EYESIGHT and technologically enhanced PAIN and SUFFERING, I would probably have to have a few beers to normalize the situation before even attempting to watch ANYTHING

:-)

I guess HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are just going to be 2 more huge imperfect disappointments to which to look forward...???

EXCELLENT... whoaa... dude

[elizerrojas]

quote.Comparing HC to the 'real thing' so not CCE BASIC but CCE SP , with several passes.

Conclusion: CCE is much qiucker and it's better. (and much more expensive).

of course i'd not compare HC to the $2000 CCE, but i do to the others CCEs. NO need to buy those, HC is as good or better.

[magic144]

beauty's in the eye of the beholder?

hey, if something works AND it's free - win-win - who cares if it's a bit slower

[apfraats]

beauty's in the eye of the beholder?

hey, if something works AND it's free - win-win - who cares if it's a bit slower

I think JDOBBS does, as he was stating before having to make many test runs, and speed will make the difference. If you want to test DVD-RB you'll need a fast encoder indeed. Especially if improving software or searching for bugs...

However, for me speed is important too. It can make the difference between doing 3 or 6 discs and with better quality. Despite of HC I still prefer CCE SP because of it's speed and qaulity. Although Shrink was a lot faster...... :D

[apfraats]

You know... I've had enough of these discussions with you to know that it is better just to walk away. I know the difference between EXCELLENT and GOOD ENOUGH. I am quite confident that I am knowledgable in this subject matter. I'll end this discussion right here.

Me too. I know youre THE EXPERT on the Internal bits and bytes, but I look with my own eyes at my own TV-set, and I don't need to know anything about technology to qualify picture quality. IT's generally known that Philips has the best picture reproduction possible at the moment with their generations of PIXEL+, on a tube based TV-SET. And in Europe we don't have Progressive scan, but use 100 Hertz vertical scanning frequencie that stabalizes the picture in a very good way( frames go to memory and scanning is doubled). Although I have DVD-player with progressive outputs and would like to see progressive source material played back, just to compare. But progressive scanning is not provided here on any TV set.

So we are both happy...........

[johnhamler1]

well, for me as a newbie in encoding and DVD week end watcher, excellent quality means I can watch a DVD movie on my projector,with no pixelisation and 5:1 sound.

so I go around 2500-3000 and higer. and cut to 1000-1500 for the extra.
if I look at the extra on a TV,they look much better. so quality depends of you screen size.
even at 2500b/second I have an excellent show at home!

I dont mind to go with CCE, but not the 2000$, no way! thats crazy to pay 2000 bucks just to encode some DVDs(are you became mad in the US?).and when I tried to work with the version at 58$, it didnt work.
so HC is the best for now.

[elizerrojas]

HC is the best for now. a men.

[aaron10]

@johnhamler1

What went wrong with CCE Basic? I have it and it has operated without a hitch with DVD-RB.

[jdobbs]

I'd be interested too. DVD-RB was originally designed for CCE Basic because of its high quality/low cost... of course HC didn't exist back then. Other than the fact that you can't use the CCE Basic Trial version, I can't think of a negative.

[J-Wo]

You would want to use CCE as the encoder and set vrb to 10 quality to 4 and passes to 3 under the advanced cce settings. This seems to work good for all materal. Anything over 3 passes is a waste of time because you don't get much of a quality boost after 3 passes.

Is anyone else subscribing to this advice? Or are people having more success with the default values of vbr bias=25 and quality=16?

[jdobbs]

Based upon my experience, the default values provide the highest level of quality across the widest range of sources. I would only recommend making changes for specific reasons related the source. I would agree that 3 passes are probably the most you should ever select.

[phædrus]

Using DVD2SVCD and CCE, I sometimes went as high as 5 passes. It superficially sharpens, but you can't get something for nothing. I think it increased mosquito noise and essentially you have to pay for that sharpness elsewhere in the frame.

Like everything, it is a matter of tradeoffs and questions of taste. 3 passes is probably the best compromise, especially when you can get bitrates above 3Mbps.

[johnhamler1]

well, they said the CCE was placing a logo in the movie, so what s the point to test if I have a freaking logo ???
so, I was not very motivated at the start with CCE ,and when i tested HC 5-6 months ago, HC was doing a good job .so I throw away all the CCE I have download.

now i regret it, cuz I would like to test the speed, I will see if i can get a new version of this CCE and if i can run it for 30 days.

[jptheripper]

trail always places logo on. YOu are testing, not keeping, so it doesnt matter