Scenaid 1.0 Final Timecode problem

[Amit]

Hi,

I am having almost similar problem as described in the thread http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=86701.

Scenaid created the scenarist script for this movie which is having 23.967 fps with pulldown applied to it. The Audio Video and Subtitle are all in sync except the closed caption stream. All the assets in scenarist are set to Drop Frame time code. The closed caption stream however is having non-drop frame time code. So when the closed caption stream is muxed the stream goes out of sync. I tried changing the timecode of the closed caption stream from non-drop to drop timecode by replacing the ":" with ";". I did this by running the SCC Tools but scenarist does not like the timecode with ";" in it. So I left the Closed Caption stream with non-drop time code but tried changing the Default Setting of assets from non-drop to drop frame and that did not help either.

Does anyone knows who to tell scenarist to treat the closed caption stream with drop frame timecode?

Thanks
-Amit

[D3s7]

Currently I don't do anything with the SCC files created by vsrip however I can definatly look into doing this...

what version of Scenarist you using?

i'll have to do some research and see how CC timestamps are stored in the vob's...

[Amit]

@D3s7

I am using Scenarist 2.7. If you need any files for analysis you can let me know and I will send them to you.

While you enhance/add this feature to the next release of Scenaid if someone can let me know the manual process to fix the problem in the mean time, I will really appreciate it.

Thanks for the help in advance,
-Amit

[Trahald]

I just tested a few pulldown movies i did and the CC were sync 100%.. now im not saying that you arent seeing a problem.. just that it may not necessarily be related to pulldown. i use scenarist 2.6. In the thread you mentioned he is doing a pal->ntsc conversion and he is referring to subtitles not CC.

See if anything in this thread is helpful -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69201&highlight=scc

[Amit]

@Trahald,

That thread did not help as I am having a different issue. Forgive me for a bigger post but I think you need to know the following:

The original DVD has 2 subtites and a closed caption stream. The subtitles on the DVD were not english so I dropped them. I then converted the CC stream to Subtitle using the EYE'S guide on doom9. The converted subtitles were imported into Scenarist 2.7 and muxed. The subtitle stream is in sync. the suntitles are converted from the same scc file that is NOT in sync. I think, Scenarist is treating the timecode in the SCC file as non-drop frame and since all the assets (Specially the track/video is set to drop frame) are set to drop frame, Scanarist then tries to convert the already converted drop frame timecode to drop frame time code there by speeding up the cc stream by 0.1% (1-29.97/30). What I am looking for is a way to specify Scenarist that the SCC file is already in drop frame timecode so that scenarist does not perform another dropframe conversion which causes the CC stream to go out of sync. Or if someone can tell me a tool to convert the timecode from drop frame to non-drop frame that will do too as Scenarist in then convert back to drop frame and everything will be back in sync.

The reason CC to subtitle conversion worked and is in sync is because I can specify the drop type in the SST file.

Any help will be appreciated.

-Amit

[D3s7]

Actually the DROP_TYPE in the .sst is ignored, scenarist doesn't support it (.sst is a format not specific to scenarist)

Scenarist 2.7 doesn't automatically apply dropframe either..... Scenaid does this while scanning and it's preapplied in the .SCP..

SOOOOO.. if you converted/imported the SCC file into a SST and imported it into Scenarist you actually are backwards, the time codes are w/out dropframe...


easist way to match would be to check the times in the .SCC (or your generated SST) to the times in the scenaid script.... these ones will be correct

[Amit]

@D3s7

The timecodes in SSC and SST file match exactly. Since I manually imported the SST file after Scenaid did its magic, the drop type was either set correctly because Scenaid set the correct project settings or Scenarist actually looked into the DROP_TYPE field. I can tell you positively that if I select a subtile (the one that I imported manually) and then check the properties, every subtitle's drop type is set to DROP FRAME so does the VIDEO asset.

-Amit

[Trahald]

Originally posted by Amit
@D3s7

The timecodes in SSC and SST file match exactly. Since I manually imported the SST file after Scenaid did its magic, the drop type was either set correctly because Scenaid set the correct project settings or Scenarist actually looked into the DROP_TYPE field. I can tell you positively that if I select a subtile (the one that I imported manually) and then check the properties, every subtitle's drop type is set to DROP FRAME so does the VIDEO asset.

-Amit

The properties would read DROP FRAME even if the sst were set to 'Tape_Type NON_DROP'.. (feel free to try it and see) since the video is drop.

and regaurds to the cc.. if you are saying closed captions in a drop frame environment (any one ntsc using this method) are going to be 0.1% off every dvd, then that would be incorrent.. but maybe i misunderstand you

if i get some free time (read not too lazy) i'll try to whip up something that will adjust the raw file.. (i'll let the user enter some % and then adjust it that amount).. i cant think of anything that already exists that does it.

[D3s7]

Originally posted by Amit
@D3s7

The timecodes in SSC and SST file match exactly. Since I manually imported the SST file after Scenaid did its magic, the drop type was either set correctly because Scenaid set the correct project settings or Scenarist actually looked into the DROP_TYPE field. I can tell you positively that if I select a subtile (the one that I imported manually) and then check the properties, every subtitle's drop type is set to DROP FRAME so does the VIDEO asset.

-Amit


I know and I'm saying that's incorrect... the SSC and SST would match however, if this is 2.7, dropframe would need to be applied to that..

The timecodes you want to check are the SSC/SST to the .SCP scenaid makes... those would be the sst + dropframe (or you can manually add dropframe)

Scenarist ignores the TAPE_TYPE setting completly as well as the DROP_TYPE settings....(trust me... did a lot of testing on that) - now maybe that's only 2.6/2.7 and 3.0 but non the less.. it doesn't apply..

the bmp in Scenarist would say "drop frame" because the project script says "default = drop timecode" - that doesn't mean though that dropframe was applied...

[Amit]

@D3s7 & @Trahald,

So it looks like both of you are saying the same thing and that is that the Scenarist GUI is showing me incorrect information. And after reading your post I am more confused now.

If Scenarist is always treating the data as non-drop frame then I don't understand how come the subtitles created from the SCC file are in sync while the CC created from the SCC file are not!

Since there was no subtitle stream imported by Scenaid, when I open the SCP file I did not see anything except that the video track has Line21 set to SCC file. Did I miss something?

Can any one of you answer the following questions for me? Thanks.

Q1) How can find out that the raw dump has non-drop frame timecode or drop-frame timecode other than the timecode separator i.e. ":" or ";"?
The reason I am asking this question is to findout on my own what's the correct drop type in the raw dump. I already have a raw dump of CC stream created using the McPoddle Graphedit method.

Q2) Since CC and Subtitle streams have same timecode information shouldn't both of them match? Scenarist definetly has some extra information for Subtitles that its missing for CC stream. Do you know what this could be?

Thanks in advance,
-Amit

[D3s7]

maybe we (or at least I) are misunderstanding your issue then....

lemme see if I get this right:

The CC file converted to SST then imported into scenarist is correct
the CC file attached to the video is incorrect

is that above statment true or reversed?

if it's the above then I'm puzzled... i could understand the reversed but not that...

[Amit]

@D3s7

The CC file converted to SST then imported into scenarist is correct.
The CC file attached to the video is incorrect

The above statement is TRUE. That's why I am confused what's happening.

If you want I can send you the SCC and SST files.

-Amit

[D3s7]

yeah if you could...

is the CC behind or ahead when you playback?

[Amit]

@D3s7

CC is ahead i.e. I see the CC before I hear the dialog.
Sending you the SCC & SST files to ScenAid at Sceneaid.com

-Amit

[D3s7]

ah ok.. then that makes since on how it lines up properly : ie the sst you imported probably DOES have some sort of dropframe correction already on it

Not sure why the CC would have dropframe unless it's not really that but some sort of delay was in the original that didn't get ripped out properly..

I'll take a look at the files you sent me although they probably won't tell me the info I need :(

What movie is this? Might be easier if I netflix it and take a look

[Amit]

@D3s7

This movie is SHOWGIRLS. On a side note, if you netflix it to checkout, its got lot of n*dity :sly:. SO don't tell me that I did not warn you.

I talked with McPoddle with the same issue on private mails going back and forth between us. I sent him the same set of file I sent you. Infact I sent him the binary dump (RAW) file of CC created by graphedit too. According to him the SCC and SST files have exact timecodes that match frame to frame.

I used the following guide to convert the SCC to SST

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/ccguide.htm

Will be anxiously waiting for what you found since this thing has blown my head off in trying to figure out what's happening.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate you looking into it for me.
-Amit

EDIT: Did you get my email with the files I sent you yesterday?

[Trahald]

no wonder its not working right.. that movie isnt fit for viewing ;) ok.. maybe viewing but not viewing AND listening (end offtopic)

[D3s7]

yeah.. wouldn't the CC cover something up ? ;D

[Amit]

@D3s7,

Actually CC will show you everything while manually converted subtitles may cover up as they always appear at the same place.

That's why I want the CC to work so desparatly :D

-Amit

[Amit]

Hi,

For anyone keeping an eye on this thread, you will rejoice that the problem can now be solved using a new tool from McPoodle. My regards and big thanks fly to him to help me in resolving this problem.

He has told me that he will be posting his new tool on DOOM9 pretty soon but just in case you need it immediately you can get it at

ccadj.exe (http://www.geocities.com/mcpoodle43/SCC_TOOLS/ccadj.exe)

The above tool has only one parameter and that is "m" short for multiplier. You can use this tool by using the following command:

ccadj -m<multiplier_value> <input_file_name.scc> <output_file_name.scc>

In my case Scenarist was always treating the CC stream as 29.976 non-drop while the video was in 29.976 drop frame.

29.976 non-drop frame is same as 30 frames per second. To calculate the multiplier do the following math

<actual frame rate>/<desired frame rate>

In my case the SCC file has the correct timecode of 29.976 i.e. the drop frame code and my desired frame rate was 30 frames i.e 29.976 non-drop so the equation becomes

29.976/30 = 0.992

This 0.992 multiplier will convert your drop frame timecodes to non-drop frame timecodes.

Once your SCC file has non-drop frame timecodes the Scenarist will automatically do the conversion from non-drop frame back to drop-frame because the video track is a drop frame time code. And Volla everything is back in sync.

Special thanks to McPoodle and anyone else who tried to help me out here.

-Amit

[Trahald]

thanks for posting that resolution amit.

just an fyi.. only use this application if your closed captions are out of sync.