Absolute BEST codec for low bitrates is...

[DeathTheSheep]

Buhum... Alright. It's just me, the Deathly Sheep. Um, this thread is acutally a question of opinion: what is the BEST codec for exteremely low bitrates while maintaining enough quality to read integrated subtitles (320*240)?

Here's what I mean. I have this anime clip, see. It's "Naruto" or something, 20 minutes. With low quantizers, I can compress the episode to 6.7MB using DivX Plasma at insane quality, 31q. I can compress it to 3MB with 3ivx at 31q (for some darned reason) but it shows horrible motion artifacts and is *nearly* unreadable. VP6(.2) Advanced Profile does around 5MB at 55q, and x264 (can't use lowest setting; simply unwatchable even for my standards, so use around 41-45) usually does around 4 MB. Nero does around 3.5 (but with such a terrible A/V skew it's unbearable to watch) at who knows what q, cuz it doesn't let you set it, really. And don't get me started with RealVideo--that thing busted my computer a couple years back and I'm scared of it like he**.

But with this test, I'm not satisfied, for each's quality at low bitrates is dependent upon the means the codec compresses the video.

So, bearing in mind Anime, 320*240 resolution, readable subs (integrated into video stream, high contrast, 18pt font), frameskip up to 3 (preferably 1-2), and very low dang blockiness/motion artifacts, what is the best codec for low bitrates? Don't use my test results, use your rich personal experiances! :-)

[IgorC]

there aren´t XVID, WMV9 in vote list. Actually Xvid 1.1 is quite good (with custom matrices).

1. 5-30 seconds of video doesn´t proof anything.
2. 5 mb Vp6.4 and 3.5mb H.264. Can you be more precise?
3. if you will use search you´ll find that there was a lot of items of comparing such this one.
Your test is useless and doensn´t contain any information. It´s not personal. i wish you the best.

For anime Rv10 or Nero H.264 is best decision. I don´t have any problem with software like RealPlayer10, AutoRV. It works fine for me.

[Tommy Carrot]

4MB for 20 min sounds a little bit extreme to me (it's around 30 kbps, right?), so it's not a big surprise that you didn't get watchable encodes. In my experience, at more reasonable bitrates (~100 kbps), nero AVC gives the best results.

edit: i can only base my opinion on live action movies though, perhaps with animes the situation is completely different.

[iwod]

Where is the SNOW in Xmas?

[DeathTheSheep]

Teeheehee... I don't think my PocketPC can tolerate much SNOW, now can it? lol ;-)

Anyway, IgorC, um, this is 20 mins of pure Naruto madness ;-).
Also, XviD produces results so similar to DivX Plasma (inferior in most cases) that it's almost the same thing (don't quote me on that line...plz ;-) ) So, a vote for XviD is a vote for Plasma, basically, cuz I don't have all too much experiance with Custom Matricies (all I've ever done was to set everything to 32...mmmmmBAAA). Uh, yeah. All of the vids used for testing were viewable (with readable subs, for the most part).

Oh, tsssh, I forgot WMV9... OH MY DEATH! OH MY SHEEP! ... But if I could edit my poll, I'd add it... hm... Ah well. Besides, where do you get VP6.4? I could only find VP6.2.6 ...

[akupenguin]

The rules say: don't ask what's "best". There isn't an objective answer.

But I vote for Snow: very nice at low bitrates, and it doesn't need so much tweaking to get a compromise between resolution and quantizer. No blockiness at all (wavelets+obmc take care of that), though it has it's own set of artifacts. While it's slow for normal use, that shouldn't be a problem at 320x240.

Subtitles? Use softsubs. They're always better than hardsubs, but especially at low resolution and/or low bitrate. If you have to make text readable, that will take large fraction of your bitrate away from the video. (If you're encoding a fansub with already hardcoded subs -- you're SOL.)
Frameskip: try mencoder's "-vf decimate" for x264, snow, lavc-mpeg4, or xvid (you'll have to play with thresholds).

[DeathTheSheep]

Snow, eh? Wow, that makes 2 already... Does anyone know any snow decoders for Pocket PC?

[Tommy Carrot]

Well, Snow is very impressive indeed, but in my opinion it's not ready for everyday usage. It still has some unwanted artifacts due to its immature stage, particularly the "vibration" effect is what i find bothering (here is a sample (http://www.fw.hu/carrotland/alien4_snow.avi) which shows the problem rather clearly), and also the bitstream is not frozen, the different snow versions are not compatible with each other, so for archiving Snow is useless yet.

[DeathTheSheep]

The different Snow versions aren't compatible with each other? Heh, even a single version isn't compatible with itself! ;-) Naa, I ain't tryin' to dis the newbie codec ('specially one so "promising"), but it ain't supported on my Pocket PC yet, which may be where I use it most.

I got tons of votes for ND AVC, and I'm kinda confused. Is it that good? I compressed a Naruto episode (very readable and everything) to 2.89MB with x264 into the super-cool AVI format. No blocking, prety clear, sharp characters.... I never imagined it could be so good. VP6 is good, too, it seems.

But with yer votes, ppl, it looks like ND AVC blows it away. So, why do you all think it's "best"? Is it the low bitrate? The lack of blockiness? The MP4 container? The clarity at low br? I'm very intrigued!

PS: Tommy, Carrotman, uh, yer sample doesn't work... lol :-)

[Tommy Carrot]

Originally posted by DeathTheSheep
PS: Tommy, Carrotman, uh, yer sample doesn't work... lol :-)
Try it now, it should be fixed.

Anyway, Nero AVC codec is basicly the better version of x264, with better quality, encoding speed, etc. The MP4 container is a necessary bad thing imo, i would prefer AVI, but that's just me.

[Teegedeck]

'The best' indeed is a dangerous term when it comes to comparing codecs. But since in the 'ridiculously low bitrates' area wavelet codecs really don't seem to have a competition, my vote goes for Snow, too. Rather a washed-out picture than a total blockfest at 200-300 kbps.

[DeathTheSheep]

The MP4 container is a necessary bad thing imo, i would prefer AVI, but that's just me.

Mmm... Let's simply say... it's not just you....hehehe.....

*COUGH*noMP4*cough*

BAAA(d)MP4.

Cheers, baa

[Soulhunter]

What ??? Less than 50kbps for a 320x240 encode, uhm... :rolleyes:

Guess even with ND-AVC you'll need 250kbps to get something acceptable !!!


Bye

[DeathTheSheep]

Heh? Uh, sure... Yeah, I didn't realize it, but yeah, well under 50kbps...

Ever try to encode Naruto at over 100kbps? Pocket PC memory card madness, 'twas-------

HEY! I'll upload the 2.4MB episode 4 u to check out!! HEhehe...EErrm, where can I upload a non-USA liscenced non-illegal 2.4MB Naruto episode? Anyone know?

Then you guyz can see the excellent x264 quality at a quantizer of --get this-- 45! Thassrigh' fourtiee faaeyve. Readable hardsubs, no blocks, nice pic, all the good stuff. A bit blurred and bleached but HEY! Blurrs+bleach > "unsightly blockiness" anyway.

By the way, anyone notice that 3ivx/Divx/XviD/Skal/H26(<4)/MPEG-4 ASP gives terrible blocks but just about nothing else does? Is there something I'm doing wrong? This has been my experiance for quite a while.

[ChronoReverse]

Frozen precipitation in the form of white or translucent hexagonal ice crystals that fall in soft, white flakes.

[ObiKenobi]

Originally posted by DeathTheSheep
HEY! I'll upload the 2.4MB episode 4 u to check out!! HEhehe...EErrm, where can I upload a non-USA liscenced non-illegal 2.4MB Naruto episode? Anyone know?

Nope, fansubs are still illegal even if the show isn't licensed.

[DeathTheSheep]

--------------------About the anime------------------------
Really? Hm... That's not what my legal advisor says.

I'm talking about the US of A here. If something is truly not copyrighted, not liscensed, not registered, etc in the USA, it's legal. Only those (like DBZ, YUGIOH, etc) that ARE licensed aren't allowed.

That's what I've heard. I always find it strange how so many people (even in the legal dept. itself, it seems) have conflicting points of view on this. Never mind, then, I won't upload it or anything.

-------------------About Snow------------------------------
It looks really good. The codec, that is. Will it be easy to integrate into mobile devices when it is "finished"? What other "wavelet" codecs are out there?

[Mug Funky]

hehe...

i haven't tried most of the codecs on that list, so i can't really vote until i have.

though i'd give snow a look. wavelet means you can encode broad slabs of flatness alongside detail like subs pretty nicely. it's so experimental though, that it'll probably look terrible.

fansubs are legally illegal (huh... am i the only one who thinks that sounds funny?), but morally okay in my opinion. indeed, it's harder to prove that fansubs hurt licensees than it is to prove p2p hurts the RIAA. i suspect fansubs actually help, but nobody wants to admit that... and either way, i don't think it's likely that naruto will ever be licensed and dubbed - it's too long, and the profits from it in a western market will be nowhere near the expense of dubbing so many episodes. companies like ADV run on small margins as it is, but they get by because being small they don't need to sell as much to break even as a huge company like Disney™ would have to.

downloading a fansub is morally in the same category as reading a newspaper in a cafe - you weren't going to buy it, but it was there so you read it. (hmm... i wonder if print media publishers are going to crack down on cafe's and doctor's waiting rooms? think of the lost profits!).

[ObiKenobi]

Originally posted by DeathTheSheep
Really? Hm... That's not what my legal advisor says.

I'm talking about the US of A here. If something is truly not copyrighted, not liscensed, not registered, etc in the USA, it's legal. Only those (like DBZ, YUGIOH, etc) that ARE licensed aren't allowed.

Then your "legal advisor" is either an idiot or ignorant of international copyright laws. The original creators or whoever holds the copyrights to the series, in a number of cases these aren't always the same people, owns all rights to the distrubtion and translation of their titles, and to be able to legally translate a series one must obtain a license to do so. Fansubberss do not have said license and under copyright laws are considered no different then an HK bootleg, both being unlicensed translations/distributions of said titles.

While most Japanese companies haven't really seemed to care much about fansubbers this has seemingly started to change. Recently AnimeSuki was contacted by Media Factory, Inc., a japanese studio, to remove torrents of its shows from the site because of this issue. Whether or not other anime studios will do the same is yet to be seen, but it just goes to show that if they want the original creators will and can enforce their copyrights against anyone who is distributing/translating their series without a license to do so.

[DeathTheSheep]

Nice. I stand corrected. Scary...

[plonk420]

you should try Azumanga Daioh, unless that's not your kind of series :p it compresses insanely well - the body of the show (no OP or ED) almost transparent at 640x480 with 44.1khz AAC-HE audio at around 50mb for 20/22 mins (don't remember)

[DeathTheSheep]

Are you serious? 50MB for an entire episode at that resolution in good quality? Wow, maybe I should try it. Heh, what an interesting way for an anime series to draw in an audience... lol

Cheers, baa

[APF_Gandalf]

Originally posted by plonk420
you should try Azumanga Daioh, unless that's not your kind of series :p it compresses insanely well - the body of the show (no OP or ED) almost transparent at 640x480 with 44.1khz AAC-HE audio at around 50mb for 20/22 mins (don't remember)

I think Elfen Lied and Gantz both share the same "insane" compressibility.

Using the DVD as source, I'm getting almost transparent encodes at 640*352 (16:9) for less than 100 MB.
with xvid 1.x (yes, Xvid, not real, h264 or VP6, but I'm going to try them on these episodes), CQ HVSbest, all the good features "ON" and an average quantizer of 3.
the resulting file (for 25 minutes with opening and ending) is near 80-90 MB without the sound. If you cut off the opening and ending, I think you can get something like 60 MB easily.

[plonk420]

i'm trying to encode Record of Lodoss War to 2 or 3 CDs but i keep having probs with not getting video after the first two vids i encoded *grunts* hopefully that's resolved in the next update... =\

[DeathTheSheep]

Let's revive this thread from the dead with a new one--I'd like to see people's opinions now that there is a new supercodec lineup to choose from.

[Doom9]

well.. this time I caught on the rule12. You should really know better...