DVD on HDTV v. Std def TV

[richarddd]

Will DVDs look much better on a HD TV than on a standard definition TV?

[crahak]

The perceived difference will vary on a few things:
-What you have for "standard def" stuff, ie: crappy analog cable over coax? high quality sat tv over component video? ...
-How good your eyes are (not all people see a lot more detail or less macroblocks)
-Size of TV
...

My answer: definately a lot better

[Mug Funky]

the flipside is does your DVD player have progressive output, and if so, what kind of deinterlacer does it use?

same goes for the HDTV - i've seen some absolute crap TVs sold as HDTV... like plasma screens with only 480 vertical lines!! (PAL land here, so SDTV is an upgrade on that, and any input to this TV would have to be deinterlaced and downscaled).

also, a lot of HDTVs (and increasingly SDTVs) do huge amounts of post-processing on the incoming signal. this is usually done very badly (can anybody spell "sony"?) and gives the picture a highly artificial look, almost "warpsharpened". in these cases i prefer a little noise...

but, assuming ideal conditions in both formats, HDTV will look much better :)

[richarddd]

I'm looking at picture tube TVs, as the quality seems better than plasma or LCD or rear projection, at least at the stores I've browsed. Main current preferences are a 36" or so Sony std def or a 32" or Sony HD (probably wide screens), based on in store viewing. What's wrong with Sony & what's better? In store, HD seemed better than SD, but I'm not sure I trust in store viewing.

I'm more interested in DVD quality than TV programs. Local cable provider offers digital and some HD over coax, but my guess is that it qualifies as "crappy." We 200 channels plus cable modem over coax, they must be compressing. No sat.

DVD players are progressive - Philips dvp642 so that we can play xvid's. We also have a year old panasonsic somewhere.

Based on all that, what would you do?

[jggimi]

Take your dvd player to the store, and plug it into the various TVs you are interested in. Use DVI/HDMI connections if both player and the TV have it, use component video connections otherwise. Set the player to progressive output 16:9, and bring a few DVDs with you

Then use your eyes.

Some players (I don't know about the DVP642, and I doubt your Panasonic can do it, since this is relatively new) can resize from 480p to 720p. It's not really 720p, but the resize can be perceived as better than some resizers in the TVs. But, even if its just a progressive output, you should see that 480p looks significantly better than 480i. If it doesn't, take a look at a couple of the store's DVD players, and compare their output to your player(s).

As for your local cable company's HDTV, you should be able to see it displayed in the store. When the signal is in good shape, HDTV video sources will look significantly better than any DVD. That's HDTV video. Film transfers broadcast over HDTV don't look as good, to me.

Most HDTV broadcast in the US is 1080i, though there is some 720p. Both of these should be visibly better than 480p.

I've found the hdtvoice.com website and forum very helpful, not just with equipment and connection technologies, but with HD broadcast information, as well.

[richarddd]

Finding a store that will let me plug in my own DVD player, or even that will let me plug in one of their DVD players, would clearly be the best way to proceed. Unfortunately, finding one is not exactly a trivial task. :(

http://hdtvoice.com/ is good :)

[jggimi]

Really? I bought my HTDV at a major chain store filled with many young and ignorant salespeople. When I asked one of them to show me different inputs to their monitors (I asked to see 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i), he referred me to their in-store HDTV sales dspecialist, who showed me all but 720p, and that included two different DVD players (neither were mine, though). They were unable to show me 720p, due to how their display models were set up.

It would seem to me that if you are a customer who is about to spend several thousand dollars or more on a high end display, they would be willing to give you some simple assistance in figuring out which expensive unit to buy.

[SeeMoreDigital]

richarddd,

Do you watch DVD's on your PC? If so what resolution is your monitor set to? If it's above 640x480, say 1024x768 (or higher), then you are already watching them on an "HD" display!

I'm writing this post using an 15" LCD monitor set to 1024x768 pixels (the screens maximum resolution), but I could just as easily be writing it using an 42" plasma monitor, which has a resolution of 1280x768. Both screens have the same vertical pixel count but one is considerably larger than the other!

Most of my DVD's are PAL, so they contain 576 vertical pixels, so when 576 pixels are expanded to fill an monitor that has 768 pixels (or more), some form of "pixel interpolation" has to take place.

Pixel interpolation is a lot less noticeable via a small screen than via a large screen....

...."so you pays your money and you takes your choice!"


Cheers

[richarddd]

@SeeMore

That raises another question. When I compare an encoded DVD (usually xvid or CCE) to the original, I can always tell the difference on my PC, but can't tell any difference on my std. def. TV. Will encoding flaws (typically softness) be more apparent on a HD TV than on my PC?

I fear there's a widescreen HD TV in my future :)

[b0b0b0b]

On a good hdtv, the dvd will look a ton better.

Things to make sure of are: 3:2 pulldown / auto ivtc (unless it's a crt of course) and good scaling.

[manono]

If you intend to play your XviDs on the Philips unit, then you're screwed. It has the ESS chipset, and it's notorious for not scaling them properly for widescreen TV sets. Just ask jggimi about his JVC DVD/MPEG-4 player with the same chipset.

Often you can't learn anything from an in-store setup. The lighting is bad. They're feeding the same signal to a whole bank of TV sets. They're not calibrated properly, and they won't let you fool with the settings. For example, the out-of-the-box settings for almost all TVs have the sharpness setting way too high. That may be what Mug Funky was referring to (partly) with his "warpsharpened" comment.

If you're going to buy one from a store, I'd make sure they'll let you return it if you don't like it, take it home, and play with it for a week. I'd also go to the stores, write down the names of the models they have in stock, go home, and research them by looking for reviews.

And, yes, your DVDs and XviDs will look much better on a decent HDTV fed by a decent progressive scan player.

[b0b0b0b]

Maybe this is a thing of the past, but it might be the case that scalers have a difficult time handling progressive video and actually prefer telecined, interlaced input (might be worth considering).

[richarddd]

Any views on whether xvid encodes or CCE encodes are generally better than the other when viewed on a widescreen HDTV (I realize there are a lot of variables)?

The web site jggimi linked refered to in store settings as "torch mode" for the excessive brightness, color calibration, etc.

Based on in store viewing and reading, CRTs seem to me to have the best picture, but that's another issue.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by richarddd
@SeeMore

That raises another question. When I compare an encoded DVD (usually xvid or CCE) to the original, I can always tell the difference on my PC, but can't tell any difference on my std. def. TV. Will encoding flaws (typically softness) be more apparent on a HD TV than on my PC?

I fear there's a widescreen HD TV in my future :) Standard Cathode Ray Tubes (CRT's) as used in current 4:3 and 16:9 TV's, don't have anything like the definition (resolution) of CRT's used for PC's... So yes, CRT TV screens are far more forgiving when viewing video.

In a few years time, we will only be able to by HD TV screens. Most if not all of them, will be able to connect to your PC and your set-top boxes. And the bigger the screens become will result in the death of the cathode ray tube (who would want a 42" wide screen that's 36" deep).

The first big 42" plasma screens only had a resolution of 852x480 pixels, so they are really only good for viewing NTSC DVD and broadcast TV. They are waste of time for viewing HDTV or connecting to a PC. Thankfully the prices of high-def plasma and LCD TV screens are dropping fast.

My current favourite plasma panel is manufactured by Fujitsu and has a resolution of 1024x1024. Many manufacturers are incorporating it into their product range because it's reliable, cost effective and generates very good looking images.

In the UK, you can buy one of these screens manufactured by Hitachi for as little as £2300.00, which would have been an impossible price for any type of 42" plasma screen just two or three years ago.

Jeez... in a few more years time, they'll become so cheep they'll be giving them away when you fill your car up with ten gallons of fuel ;)


Cheers

[jggimi]

When one chooses a TV technology; you need to make your choice based on many factors. There are many trade-offs between them, so there is no "best" choice. In my particular case, I decided I would stay away from both CRT and plasma because they are both susceptible to burn-in. We watch a lot of SDTV (4:3) with pillarboxing, and I didn't want to be concerned with burn-in. I was also going large enough that CRT would have been physically impractical.

That left me pretty much looking at PLCD and DLP, I chose PLCD. LCDs don't have burn-in, but they can show ghosting with rapidly changing images. Several direct LCDs I looked at had this trouble, which was really obvious to me with subtitles or other text on screen. This particular unit doesn't seem to have that trouble. It could be newer technology LCD, or something fancy in the projection system. Either way, that common complaint doesn't manifest.

I've set my set top box to always output 720p/60fps regardless of signal source, and I have both component video and HDMI connections. HDMI makes a difference when the source is HD video; I can't see much if any difference with film transfers.

And I'm very disappointed with the JVC NP10S deck. It has many types of operating problems with commercial DVDs, such as an inability to handle high bitrate scenes and problems navigating menus without crashing. There are no firmware updates, and JVC/US support has only suggested returning the unit for "repair." I'm surprised that DivX Networks certified this unit, as it can't handle 1/2 the max bitrate of the Home Theater profile. The only disc formats that have been problem free for me have been SVCD/VCD.

[richarddd]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Standard Cathode Ray Tubes (CRT's) as used in current 4:3 and 16:9 TV's, don't have anything like the definition (resolution) of CRT's used for PC's... So yes, CRT TV screens are far more forgiving when viewing video.
DVD resolution is 720x480, which is within the range of current HD CRT's and other HD sets. Why should a higher resolution display do a better job with a 720x480 image?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by richarddd
DVD resolution is 720x480, which is within the range of current HD CRT's and other HD sets. Why should a higher resolution display do a better job with a 720x480 image? That's the thing... they don't necessarily. This is because some high-def screens are better at interpolating pixels than others!


Cheers

[Lord_KiRon]

It will be better ... after I find my glasses :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

As I mentioned earlier... much also depends on the "physical" size of the high-def screen too!

The bigger the screen, the pigger the pixels ;)


Cheers