Half-D1 for 16:9 extras

[outsideAG]

I may be wrong, but from what I have read, 16:9 anamorphic can only be used for 720x480 video. If that is correct, then when 16:9 anamorphic extras are downsized to Half-D1, they should be resized to 4:3 first.

Many thanks for DVD-RB btw. It is a life-saver in terms of the ease of use it provides for backing up my DVDs.

[pg55555]

I really don't know. but I think there is no problem resizeng to Half D1 sources 16:09

In fact, RB has the option to do just it into the AVS Options settings.

If in doubt, just run a test:)

[jdobbs]

16:9 should be okay in half-d1.

[Trahald]

Its one of things you should test with a RW... 1/2 d1 16:9 will work on most players. although it is outside the spec.

[jdobbs]

Are you sure it's outside the spec? I don't remember ever seeing any exclusion...

[outsideAG]

VCDHelp.com says that 16:9 is only supported for full-D1.

Also at http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Video.html it states "Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (all video formats); 16:9 (all formats except 352 pixels/line)"

I don't have $5000 dollars to buy the official spec, so I don't know what *it* says.

[Paced]

Originally posted by Trahald
Its one of things you should test with a RW... 1/2 d1 16:9 will work on most players. although it is outside the spec.

I'm quite sure Trahald is right, 16:9 @ half D1 will not work on some players (two of mine included).

[EddieTH]

Originally posted by Paced
I'm quite sure Trahald is right, 16:9 @ half D1 will not work on some players (two of mine included).
I won't say that he's wrong (because I really have no idea) but the fact that some DVD players don't support it doesn't mean anything with regards to MPEG or DVD standards. Some players won't play any half D1 (or SIF) video.

[dragongodz]

Some players won't play any half D1
then they are not fully dvd compliant and should not have the dvd logo on them. playback of half D1 is specified as valid.

16:9 is not valid for half D1 for dvd video as already specified in the link outsideAG gave.

[EddieTH]

Originally posted by dragongodz
then they are not fully dvd compliant and should not have the dvd logo on them. playback of half D1 is specified as valid.

16:9 is not valid for half D1 for dvd video as already specified in the link outsideAG gave.
As I clearly said, I wasn't arguing that 16:9 half D1 was legal, just that some players won't play everything that is legal, so the fact that a player (or several players) won't play it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[dragongodz]

some players won't play everything that is legal, so the fact that a player (or several players) won't play it doesn't necessarily mean anything.
sorry but you are wrong. if a dvd player has the dvd logo on it then it is meant to be certified to play dvd legal video, that includes all frame sizes etc. if it doesnt play half D1 4:3 then it should not have the logo on it or it has a bug and needs a firmaware update.
being able to play something outside of the dvd specs is not covered by anything and not guarenteed to play. big difference.

[EddieTH]

Originally posted by dragongodz
sorry but you are wrong. if a dvd player has the dvd logo on it then it is meant to be certified to play dvd legal video, that includes all frame sizes etc. if it doesnt play half D1 4:3 then it should not have the logo on it or it has a bug and needs a firmaware update.
being able to play something outside of the dvd specs is not covered by anything and not guarenteed to play. big difference.
Yes, but what I'm saying is that I've seen DVD players that couldn't play anything with half D1 or SIF resolutions. It may mean they shouldn't have had the DVD logo, but presumably they did. I can't verify that right now, but since they were pretty standard players it didn't occur to me to check (or care since they weren't mine). I understand that standards compliance is supposed to be something you can assume, and I'm sure most of the time you can, but I've seen this personally.

In any case, it's a moot point. If it's not legal you shouldn't do it unless you know your only going to be playing it on equipment that can handle it, and that's what really matters here.

[dragongodz]

they shouldn't have had the DVD logo, but presumably they did
you know what they say pressumtion is the mother of. :)

If it's not legal you shouldn't do it unless you know your only going to be playing it on equipment that can handle it, and that's what really matters here.
exactly. as i said since its outside of dvd specs you can never be quarenteed it will work. you will never know unless you try it and even if you do have 1 dvd player where it does then the moment you replace it(since they dont last forever) the next player may not. best not to do it in the first place.

[Axlemar]

This may be a stupid question but, what exactly is the point of half-d1? If I understand correctly, it lowers the resolution of the video (thus dropping the quality) but frees more overall bitrate due to the fact that less bitrate is needed to encode half the resolution? How exactly is the resolution lowered? I am only asking openly because all searches on the net just gave me info about standards and I encoded a 2 hr+ dvd in half-d1 at 4:3 and it didn't look bad at all. Thanks.

[dragongodz]

If I understand correctly, it lowers the resolution of the video (thus dropping the quality) but frees more overall bitrate due to the fact that less bitrate is needed to encode half the resolution?
correct.

How exactly is the resolution lowered?
720x480/576 to 352x480/576. stretched on playback back to 720x480/576.

I encoded a 2 hr+ dvd in half-d1 at 4:3 and it didn't look bad at all
you can lose fine some detail etc in the resizing down but generally half D1 gives an ok picture.

[EddieTH]

Originally posted by dragongodz
you know what they say pressumtion is the mother of. :)
Indeed I do ;) And of course you should always check these things when you buy a player. I've also applied that concept to encoding 16:9 titles at half D1. I almost did it once, but since I didn't know if it was legal I didn't. As it turns out that was the right decision.

exactly. as i said since its outside of dvd specs you can never be quarenteed it will work. you will never know unless you try it and even if you do have 1 dvd player where it does then the moment you replace it(since they dont last forever) the next player may not. best not to do it in the first place.
No argument there, but perhaps this means it would be a good idea for DVD-RB to eventually be able to convert from 16:9 to letterboxed 4:3. I certainly have some discs I would probably use that on. Of course I wouldn't consider it a high priority right now. As far as I'm concerned, anything that's not an existing bug or feature should be dealt with after all the kinks are worked out of ILVU and multiple angles.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Unfortunately many Mpeg2 DVD players do struggle to play half D1 (ie: 352x480/576). They are usually the same players that struggle with S-VCD.

Has anybody here tried pixel frame sizes that are more associated with VCD say 352x240/288. At the correct bit-rate, they might look pretty good in Mpeg2/VOB... if they can be made to work/fool the player.


Cheers

[Paced]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

Has anybody here tried pixel frame sizes that are more associated with VCD say 352x240/288. At the correct bit-rate, they might look pretty good in Mpeg2/VOB... if they can be made to work/fool the player.
Cheers

Even though I haven't tried it myself, I was always under the impression that 352x288/240 (both MPEG-2 and *MPEG-1 @ 4:3) is a valid (and compliant) frame size for DVDs? I could be wrong though :D

*Can't exceed more than ~1800 kbps

[outsideAG]

Originally posted by EddieTH
Of course I wouldn't consider it a high priority right now. As far as I'm concerned, anything that's not an existing bug or feature should be dealt with after all the kinks are worked out of ILVU and multiple angles.

This isn't really a big deal, but having a program setting that changes the configuration of a DVD, and makes it non-standards compliant is - at least in my view - a type of bug.

[dragongodz]

Unfortunately many Mpeg2 DVD players do struggle to play half D1 (
many ? where is the proof for that ? the fact is half D1 is a valid dvd resolution. if you buy a dvd player(with the official dvd logo) that has problems playing that i would either take it back for a refund or contact the manufacturor and complain they do not comply with dvd specs.

I was always under the impression that 352x288/240 (both MPEG-2 and *MPEG-1 @ 4:3) is a valid (and compliant) frame size for DVDs? I could be wrong though
no you are not wrong, it is. :)

having a program setting that changes the configuration of a DVD, and makes it non-standards compliant is - at least in my view - a type of bug.
well not a bug but wrong yes.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by dragongodz
many ? where is the proof for that ? the fact is half D1 is a valid dvd resolution. if you buy a dvd player(with the official dvd logo) that has problems playing that i would either take it back for a refund or contact the manufacturor and complain they do not comply with dvd specs. I think there's no denying that many people with DVD players struggle to spin S-VCD which uses half D1.

Now whether this is because S-VCD is commonly stored on CD~R/RW using the .mpg container, and not DVD~R/RW using the .vob container, is open to debate.

I have not done any trials myself with half D1 using either Mpeg2.mpg or Mpeg2.vob using DVD~R/RW media but I did do some trials a couple of years ago using CD~R/RW media. And they where not widely compatible.

Maybe things have changed.... many players can now spin Mpeg1/2 streams in .mpg (without requiring the .dat or .vob container). But not all player can do this... and bizarrely some players can't spin VCD's but can spin Mpeg1.mpg

The joys of compatibility eh, ;)

[Kika]

On DVD, any Player with the Logo on it have to play these Resolutions:

352x240/288 MPEG1, 4:3

352x480/576 MPEG2, 4:3
704x480/576 MPEG2, 4:3, 16:9
720x480/576 MPEG2, 4:3, 16:9

Some Players (like both of mine) are able to Play 352x480/576 16:9 too, but that's a Bug, not a Feature. ;)
Any other Resolution might be played, but that's not mandatory for getting the certification. In fact, also 352x240/288 MPEG2 isn't a valid DVD-Video. Most Players will playback Videos like thid, but that's not Part auf the Standard and on some players, it results in a very bad Picture Quality.

There is an Extra-Problem with some Players and Half-D1 - they are scaling the Picture very badly (Aliasing or "Treppchen" in German - don't know the right english word, sorry).

[dragongodz]

S-VCD which uses half D1.
SVCD(480x480/576) does not use half D1(352x480/576).

I have not done any trials myself with half D1 using either Mpeg2.mpg or Mpeg2.vob using DVD~R/RW media but I did do some trials a couple of years ago using CD~R/RW media. And they where not widely compatible.
vcdr/w media may indeed cause problems. my dvd player is very fussy with cds for example. it however plays dvds fine. also we are talking about half D1 video in an authored as a video dvd and not just an mpg or vob.

I think there's no denying that many people with DVD players struggle to spin S-VCD
note that vcd and svcd are seperate standards to dvd. a player does not have to support vcd or svcd to play dvd. svcd is not even muxxed the same as a regular program stream mpg. note in Tmpgenc's tools how you can set to mux mpeg2 OR svcd. try it and you will see they give 2 different results. so trouble playing back vcd or svcd has nohing to do with dvds.

The joys of compatibility eh
indeed but that is why the standards were set.

[dragongodz]

In fact, also 352x240/288 MPEG2 isn't a valid DVD-Video.
actually it is. go back and check the link outsideAG gave.

[outsideAG]

Originally posted by Kika
On DVD, any Player with the Logo on it have to play these Resolutions:

I have a Toshiba SD-1200 right in front of me with a DVD logo on it that won't play either 352x240 MPEG-2, or 352x480 MPEG-2.

I don't know for sure, but does anybody actually *test* player compatability, or is the DVD logo just something that anybody who pays the licensing fee can slap on their player?

[dragongodz]

I have a Toshiba SD-1200 right in front of me with a DVD logo on it that won't play either 352x240 MPEG-2, or 352x480 MPEG-2.
are these authored to dvd such as by dvd-lab or Tmpgenc dvd author ? if yes then i would be contacting Toshiba and asking them why they dont support all dvd resolutions. it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

does anybody actually *test* player compatability, or is the DVD logo just something that anybody who pays the licensing fee can slap on their player?
good question. i am guessing the company is responsible for testing. so they would assure that a player meets requirements when they pay the licensing fees.

EDIT - ok i just did some searching on the sd-1200. thats getting on a bit(about 4 years old ?). so Toshiba would not be interested in updating the firmware(i bet) it would still be interesting to hear what they say about it not supporting those dimensions with mpeg2.

[Kika]

@dragongodz

actually it is. go back and check the link outsideAG gave.

It isn't... go back and check the link outsideAG gave... :D


I have a Toshiba SD-1200 right in front of me with a DVD logo on it that won't play either 352x240 MPEG-2, or 352x480 MPEG-2.

I can't belive this. Maybe your Authoring-Program is to blame.

[Paced]

Originally posted by Kika
@dragongodz
It isn't... go back and check the link outsideAG gave... :D


I just checked the link that outsideAG gave, and I also visited videohelp.com, it looks like 352x288/240 is indeed a DVD compatible frame size (MPEG-2 included).

[dragongodz]

to quote from that page

frame sizes - 720x480, 704x480, 352x480, 352x240
720x576, 704x576, 352x576, 352x288

these are all valid for mpeg2. th ONLY limitation is on mpeg1

MPEG-1 is allowed only in 352x240 or 352x288 res