800 MB AVIs to 1 CD ? [Archive]

juhiatti

29th October 2001, 23:35

Write 800 MB AVIs to a single 80 min CD ????

Here is my idea:

On an 80 min CD we can record 80 minutes of audio content or 700 MB of data content.

Now do some math!
Audio is 2 streams of 16 bit data with the sampling rate of 44100. So, in one second we have:
2 * 16 bits * 44100 1/s = 1411200 bits / second = 176400 bytes / second.
In 80 minutes of audio there is
80 * 60 * 176400 bytes = 846 720 000 bytes = 826875 kB = 807,5 MB

Clearly, for the CDFS we loose about 100 MB of space compared to the audio.

On a movie disk we have: the autolauncher files, various player / codec install files,
optionally some extra features (menus, pictures etc.), subtitle files and finally
the avi file(s).

The avi file is a largest file - the file. All the other files are small. So what we have to do
is find a way to absolutely precisely write to the disk the program files and others except
the big avi file (written like CDFS). This would take up to 10 MB of disk space.

The greatest (and hardest) now : write the avi file to disk as PCM audio.

Is it possible? Yes it is! How?

Well, there is a CD format called Mixed-Mode CD. This CD contains one ISO CD-ROM track with
data on it and the rest of the tracs is audio PCM tracs.

The problem is how to convert an AVI file to PCM. This is how:
We should have an audio wave editor application with the capability of opening PCM RAW format.
But first let's see the AVIs filesize: it have to be the multiple of 75 (don't ask me why -
this is how audio data is written to the disk 31 * 75 byte blocks = 2325 bytes / sector on CD).
So, the lenght of our avi file has to be enlarged to the next multiple of 75 (so max by 74 bytes)

Make a textfile with the apropriat size and join the tho files. Now the filesize is multiple of
75 and is still a valid AVI.

Now, in our wave editing application open the AVI as PCM RAW. When asked for format settings,
it is : channels:STEREO resolution:16 BIT samle rate:44100
The audio format on a CD is the same.

When the AVI is opened save it as a WAV file. Yes! You heard me good! As a WAV file.

This resulting WAV file will be burnt on our CD's audio track.

So, on the CD there will be the prog and other files on a CDFS track,
and the avi as a PCM audio track.

Technicly, the avi could be 800 MB in size and a few megs for other data; all fitting on
one 80 min CD.

We have to find a way to force our avi player (through a filter!?) to read this PCM audio track
and treat it as a valid AVI. The problem is that I don't now how to do it.
It should work like some audio grabbing utility which sees the track as a single PCM file.
All the AVI headers are on the beginning of the PCM data. When you grab this file to a PCM file
IT IS A VALID AVI FILE AND IT'S WORKING !!!!!!!!!!

Data errors made during the recording and grabbing processes are so small, that it can't be
seen on the final playing AVI. - Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors,
or in other words - there wouldn't be any picture and sound corruption when there is just a few
bits of error. For fewer bits of error - use lower burning speeds!!!!!

There is a CDFS.VXD version allowing Windows to see the audio tracks on an audio CD as WAV files.

So it has to be modified to alow Windows to see the tracks as RAW PCM. Why?
You can't force Windows to treat a WAV file with WAV header as AVI video with a certain FOURCC.

The otherr thing is, it had to see the audio tracks as RAW PCM and the ISO DATA TRACK with
the launcher , player etc. files.

I don't know anything about coding Windows filters and virtual device drivers, but such a device
would allow us to play with MicroDVDPlayer an AVI file from a Mixed-Mode CD audio track (through
ASPI or WinNT/2k calls).

If someone can do something about this, or you have other ways to do this contact me please!!!

My e-mail adresse is : gamjuhas@ptt.yu; or juhiatti@freemail.hu .

Greetings from juhili (aka juhi).

prr

30th October 2001, 00:07

> Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors
LOL.
Guess what happens if AVI header has one wrong bit in image size for example. AVI files can not be compared to PCM streams.

vitualis

30th October 2001, 07:45

What juhiatti wrote may be possible, but probably not using the AVI file as audio.

Consider how a SVCD or VCD works on the PC...

The filesystem points to "DAT" files... However the "DAT" files are no more than the mpeg data written as separate tracks in mode2 form2 (i.e., 2324 bytes per sector as opposed to standard mode1 or mode2 form1's 2048 bytes per sector). However, these can already be read as normal files on most PCs.

Presumably, someone could create a tool to author a disc with a similar physical and logical layout as a VCD. That is, the first track has the ISO filesystem and from there it points to data written in mode2 form2 on subsequent tracks.

Regards.

evilhomer

30th October 2001, 08:22

this was suggested in a previous thread. you'd have to write your own ISO driver for windows or something like that if i recall. technically possible, but only with a lot of knowledge/work/knowledge

guillep2k

30th October 2001, 16:35

Have anyone experimented with UDF?

Guille

ZenithalRavage

30th October 2001, 19:45

hmm.. I think I'll just keep it to overburning, hell of alot easier :)

guillep2k

30th October 2001, 21:21

Well... you could get the best of both worlds... ;)

michpan

30th October 2001, 23:15

Or get an 800MB CD and get over with it quickly :D

Bubba

31st October 2001, 01:15

A couple solutions for this problem.

* 1400MB CD (i.e. double layer CD). I saw it, and it's too expensive. It was a 1400 MB CD-RW and it's something like $5 US (or more) for each. A 700MB bought in bulk (i.e. 50-CD spindle) can be low as 25 cents. Besides, I don't know current CD burner software (i.e. Nero, Easy CD Creator, etc.) can recognize and burn the full 1400MB or ???

* Use CD-ROM Data Mode 2 or CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2. "Data Mode 2" and "XA Mode Form 2" was actually designed for music, video, or graphical data. While a block in "Data Mode 1" is defined as 2048 bytes, a block in "Data Mode 2" is 2336 bytes, while a block in "XA Mode Form 2" is 2324 bytes. By convention there are 75 blocks in a second, and so:

74 minutes CD = 74 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 333000 blocks
80 minutes CD = 80 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 360000 blocks.

With the regular "Data Mode 1":
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 681984000 bytes = 650.4 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 737280000 bytes = 703.1 MB

Now with the "Data Mode 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 777888000 bytes = 741.9 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 840960000 bytes = 802.0 MB

With "CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 738.0 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 797.9 MB

I think when we burn VCD in Nero, it use CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2.

vitualis

31st October 2001, 08:54

I think you missed the point...

1.2/1.4 GB CD-R media are not standard CDs. They cannot be read on most if not ALL current CD-ROM drives.
You cannot burn data (normally) in Mode2 Form2 sectors. As anyone who has tried it will tell you, the normal limits of 650/700MB apply for user data when you burn in Mode2 (i.e., burning in Mode2 for CD-ROMs).

Thus the above speculation.

Regards.

guillep2k

31st October 2001, 13:10

Maybe someone could extract the method used in vcdimager, which is open source, as it's true that mode 2 data from VCDs and SVCDs can be read in standard PCs, and the data IS saved mode 2. SVCDs have 2 sessions: one mode 1, with the file directory, and one mode 2, with the data. The entries in the directory point to the data in the mode 2 track. The problem is I know no tool that does that for normal files (it could be done, that's for sure... what is uncertain is how good would it be).

ppera2

31st October 2001, 16:05

I suggested it before couple months. Main problem is not to writing AVI file to disk in Mode 2 Form 2 - it can be done easy with CDRWin.

By read such track you need to drop some amount of bytes, if I remember 16 at begin of sector. That requires writing of special driver for it. This driver could also handle AVI header & index area, (which is usual about 3 MB long) separated from video/audio stream. Placing them in Mode 1 area will ensure higher reability.
But my knowlidge is not enough for go further :( .

Steady

31st October 2001, 19:24

I agree. You need a program that splits an avi into to parts. The header and indexing is written as reliable 2048 bytes/sector data. The audio/video is written as 23?? bytes/sector audio. The program would need to recombine the index and data when reading the disk. It seems like a good idea to me. An alternative would be to use one of the more error resistant streaming formats (like asf).

The trouble is the program would have a short life. DVD recordables are not that far over the horizon. I still think there will be a need for compression, you can fit multiple shows on one disk. But I think that video's will no loanger be tied to the size of a CD. Instead it will be how many you can fit on a DVD.

Helmut Hamburger

1st November 2001, 08:11

thats will be excelent, u could put a whole season of tv shows, or a movie trilogy on 1 DVD-r

theReal

4th November 2001, 04:19

Could one maybe use the VCD burning-mode of Nero to burn that avi on a VCD-like disc?

I had a corrupt mpg recently - Nero complained that it couldn't find audio and the compression was non-standard. I chose to ignore, burned the VCD and the result was perfect, no problems at all.
Of course, it was an mpeg file, while avi is something different, but I mean, mpeg4 is mpeg as well, so maybe one could trick the progs somehow? I don't know, I'm not a programmer...

ppera2

4th November 2001, 15:39

theReal, as I said it's not enough to write AVI in Mode 2 Form 2 to CD.
Mpeg1/2 has blocks that fit to 1 CD sector, if it's shorter padding is used (fill rest of place with dummy data).
Therefore, if you even success to force Nero to write AVI as (S)VCD content, you will not be able to read it correct.

Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?

vitualis

4th November 2001, 18:45

Originally posted by ppera2
Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?

Not very likely. Even a dual-layered DVD only has a max capcity of ~9 Gb total.

Are you sure you read it correctly?

Regards.

ppera2

4th November 2001, 19:04

Ben Hur is on double-side, double-layer DVD. At least this, R2 edition. Movie itself has around 10 GB.

Bubba

5th November 2001, 22:49

I made some few research, and here what I found on the double-density CD that I mentioned before. Apparently, the double-density CD with capacity of 1.3 to 1.4 GB are Sony products, and for the moment only the Sony Double Density CRX200E/A1 can read or write to these specially formulated CD-R and CD-RW media.

Since the time I saw it at before, the price has come down somewhat. It's now $2 to $3 for CD-R and CD-RW respectively. BTW, the Sony CRX200E/A1 is a 12x/8x/32x drive and priced around $190 - $200. It's not bad a price, but I guess if your friend doesn't have this drive, then the double-density CD you put "Saving Private Ryan" in one nice CD, can only read by you. It remind me of Zip drive and superdisk LS-120 drive. One is very popular while the other has more capacity but less popular.

The newest and most promising technology for Optical Storage is coming from Calimetrics Inc. and it's called MultiLevel Recording. According to various articles I read, this technology will triple a standard CD's capacity to 2.1 GB using current available technology, and it also triple the writing speed too. Basically, MultiLevel Recording works by writing and reading marks made in 8 color gradations instead of one, thus allowing the laser to read and write information within the same space. According to Calimetrics, MultiLevel drives will be backward-compatible for both reading & writing with current CD media, and so our current CDs won't be obsolete.

If I understood correctly, with MultiLevel Recording the single-layer 4.7GB DVD will also be triple to 14.1GB ... Wow! As of now, Panasonic, Plextor, Sanyo and TDK are all on board the MultiLevel bandwagon, and Calimetrics said that these guys will have products by first quarter 2002. So I guess, it's not too long to wait. How much are these new products?... I have no idea. The new media will be around $2, and as mentioned earlier the new drive will be able to read and write the current CD-R/CD-RW.

Here's a detail article from DATA STORAGE MAGAZINE about this technology:

http://ds.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=100639&KEYWORD=Calimetrics

vinetu

6th November 2001, 02:45

Oh Bubba ,
We speaking-looking for hacked (rewriten) device driver like
software (like good-old hacked CDFS.sys for Windows 98 ) which will
give us more storage space on curent technologies ,and why not
on further ...
We all know that in further,CD-ROMs, RAMs, RIMMs, will go BIGGER and BIGGER...

On theme now :
I'm sure that we can burn an avi file with " juhiatti's method "
and if there is a software "driver" which will handle data from
this "audio track" (also must replace unreadable data with correct
values -"black frames" for example), all will be done .

CavalloPazzo

17th November 2001, 01:57

If we had an mp4 file instead of .avi should it be possible to write a CD with mode2 form 2?
on Mpeg4ip.sf.net there is a tool that convert a divx avi to mp4!

dvdyke

7th December 2001, 03:13

Just thought I would bring this back to the top of the discussion again as I think it's worth persuing :)

int 21h

7th December 2001, 08:56

Compiling this on Linux right now.. a windows version would be nice heh..

dvdyke

7th December 2001, 12:23

Excuse me? Do you mean you are making a CDR driver to write DiVX to 80min ISO mode 2? But only on Linux? :P If so maybe you could throw out the source code for someone to make a Win32 version.

Taric25

7th December 2001, 18:25

Actually, I made some more precise calculations myself

74 minutes CD = 74 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 333000 blocks
80 minutes CD = 80 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 360000 blocks
99 minutes CD = 99 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 445875 blocks

With the regular "Data Mode 1":
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 681984000 bytes = 650.390625 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 737280000 bytes = 703.125 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2048 bytes = 913152000 bytes = 870.84960938 MB

Now with the "Data Mode 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 777888000 bytes = 741.85180664 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 840960000 bytes = 802.00195312 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2336 bytes = 1041564000 bytes = 993.31283569 MB

With "CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 738.04092407 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 797.88208008 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2324 bytes = 1041564000 bytes = 988.21020126 MB

With "CD-DA (or whatever sector format Audio CDs use)", we have
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2352 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 746.9329834 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2352 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 807.49511719 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2352 bytes = 1048698000 bytes = 1000.1163483 MB

Hmmm... I don't know how 800MB CDs work

Anyone up for the calculations?

dvdyke

8th December 2001, 12:49

Nope. All I know is that on 802MB VCD's in ISO Mode 2 it does not have the same amount of error checking as normal data thus the 100 megs more of room available. This is fine for audio and video but no good for data like .exe's or .zip's as they have to be 1000% accurate. A method has already been suggested for writing DiVX to 802MB ISO Mode 2 but no means thus far of reading them back as valid files without a driver being made that can do it.

I live in hope that someone will make one.

CavalloPazzo

26th January 2002, 10:59

Does someone of you know a way to write a file with mode 2 form 2. I've tried with CDR-WIN, but probably i missed something.
Ogg files have checksums, so it should be possible to write an ogg file to a CDR mode 2.
For info on .ogg file, visit www.powerdivx.com and visit Forum

amni

27th January 2002, 15:05

Actually, I posted this fact several times and it looked like nobody
cares, so I began to give up.

I might add few details later. The essential details are:

1)
Burning is MODE2 FORM2 single track on the CD
796MB on 1 CD 80 minutes (835000000 bytes), no overburn, no oversize,
speed tested X4,
zero errors (!!!) of binary DATA on each of burning on 6 CDRs
760MB--796MB data on each CD.
The 7 burn was a coaster but apparently because of overburning

2)
Possible to burn two tracks of MODE2, the first track FORM2, the second track FORM1. The I idea is to write in second FORM1 track
an EEC file (EEC=Error correcting code).
Unfortunaly, the second track steal about 40 MB (may be for
LEADIN an LEADOUT burning), but maybe this is a fault
of the burning software (I guess 20MB sould be enough for overhead
burning).

3) It is not simple to retrieve the burned tracks. Looks like
software fault (omit to burn a PVR header to declare the contents
and organization of the track).

By the way. Apparently --- except maybe CDDA --- RAW data means
*always* 2324 bytes per block(=2352 bytes). Some the remaining 18
bytes are used for controll (like ERROR CHECK but not ERROR CORRECTION).

Originally posted by juhiatti
Write 800 MB AVIs to a single 80 min CD ????

Here is my idea:

On an 80 min CD we can record 80 minutes of audio content or 700 MB of data content.

Now do some math!
Audio is 2 streams of 16 bit data with the sampling rate of 44100. So, in one second we have:
2 * 16 bits * 44100 1/s = 1411200 bits / second = 176400 bytes / second.
In 80 minutes of audio there is
80 * 60 * 176400 bytes = 846 720 000 bytes = 826875 kB = 807,5 MB

Clearly, for the CDFS we loose about 100 MB of space compared to the audio.

On a movie disk we have: the autolauncher files, various player / codec install files,
optionally some extra features (menus, pictures etc.), subtitle files and finally
the avi file(s).

The avi file is a largest file - the file. All the other files are small. So what we have to do
is find a way to absolutely precisely write to the disk the program files and others except
the big avi file (written like CDFS). This would take up to 10 MB of disk space.

The greatest (and hardest) now : write the avi file to disk as PCM audio.

Is it possible? Yes it is! How?

Well, there is a CD format called Mixed-Mode CD. This CD contains one ISO CD-ROM track with
data on it and the rest of the tracs is audio PCM tracs.

The problem is how to convert an AVI file to PCM. This is how:
We should have an audio wave editor application with the capability of opening PCM RAW format.
But first let's see the AVIs filesize: it have to be the multiple of 75 (don't ask me why -
this is how audio data is written to the disk 31 * 75 byte blocks = 2325 bytes / sector on CD).
So, the lenght of our avi file has to be enlarged to the next multiple of 75 (so max by 74 bytes)

Make a textfile with the apropriat size and join the tho files. Now the filesize is multiple of
75 and is still a valid AVI.

Now, in our wave editing application open the AVI as PCM RAW. When asked for format settings,
it is : channels:STEREO resolution:16 BIT samle rate:44100
The audio format on a CD is the same.

When the AVI is opened save it as a WAV file. Yes! You heard me good! As a WAV file.

This resulting WAV file will be burnt on our CD's audio track.

So, on the CD there will be the prog and other files on a CDFS track,
and the avi as a PCM audio track.

Technicly, the avi could be 800 MB in size and a few megs for other data; all fitting on
one 80 min CD.

We have to find a way to force our avi player (through a filter!?) to read this PCM audio track
and treat it as a valid AVI. The problem is that I don't now how to do it.
It should work like some audio grabbing utility which sees the track as a single PCM file.
All the AVI headers are on the beginning of the PCM data. When you grab this file to a PCM file
IT IS A VALID AVI FILE AND IT'S WORKING !!!!!!!!!!

Data errors made during the recording and grabbing processes are so small, that it can't be
seen on the final playing AVI. - Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors,
or in other words - there wouldn't be any picture and sound corruption when there is just a few
bits of error. For fewer bits of error - use lower burning speeds!!!!!

There is a CDFS.VXD version allowing Windows to see the audio tracks on an audio CD as WAV files.

So it has to be modified to alow Windows to see the tracks as RAW PCM. Why?
You can't force Windows to treat a WAV file with WAV header as AVI video with a certain FOURCC.

The otherr thing is, it had to see the audio tracks as RAW PCM and the ISO DATA TRACK with
the launcher , player etc. files.

I don't know anything about coding Windows filters and virtual device drivers, but such a device
would allow us to play with MicroDVDPlayer an AVI file from a Mixed-Mode CD audio track (through
ASPI or WinNT/2k calls).

If someone can do something about this, or you have other ways to do this contact me please!!!

My e-mail adresse is : gamjuhas@ptt.yu; or juhiatti@freemail.hu .

Greetings from juhili (aka juhi).

CavalloPazzo

27th January 2002, 22:49

I'd like to know which program You used(cdrwin?), and how you've burned the cd. Then I don't understand: you you can't see the burned cds, how can you say that there isn't any error?

amni

28th January 2002, 07:58

Hi,

I don't like to give partial details about the process of
burning, because it might
lead to confusion, therefore I might
write a guide; actually I begin writing the guide and it might
take several days.

In short: the overall format of the CD is ROM_XA
(although other formats, like MIX_MODE maybe also
usefull, but I didn't checked in depth other formats).

As I said Under ROM_XA one may use one or more tracks,
each track in format MODE2_FORM1 or MODE2_FORM2. Seems that
multissesions are acceptable by ROM_XA.
(I couldn' find a good documentation about the specifications of
ROM_XA).

I tried CDRWIN but it looks like that this program doesn't
help in mastering XA format. I don't see any way to force
CDRWIN to master in MODE2_FORM2:
when I tried, using CDRWIN, to master a binary data file
as a MODE2_FORM2 it mastered it as MODE2_FORM1 instead.

I used the program CDRDAO (WWW.SOURCEFORGE.ORG).
This program works under WIN32DOS, operates with
command lines and uses a mastering ASCII file with ".toc"
extention (something like ".cue" file for CDRWIN).

If you download CDRDAO from SOURCEFORGE, you'll get
sort of "manual" documentation for that program,
in PDF document.

I don't need any "driver" to read the burned tracks.
Essentially, the program ISOBUSTER extracts the tracks
from the burned CD. I tested the errors in burning as follows:
I created ZIP files with CRC numbers built in them
(using the program WINDOWS COMMANDER). After extracting
the burned tracks --- I run a CRC test on the extracted files.

Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
I'd like to know which program You used(cdrwin?), and how you've burned the cd. Then I don't understand: you you can't see the burned cds, how can you say that there isn't any error?

CavalloPazzo

28th January 2002, 10:51

Ok, thanks. I'll wait for your guide, but I think that the fact that only isobuster can read the track should be solved. Do you think it's possible?

amni

28th January 2002, 12:46

Hi

I'm not CDR programmer, therefore i can only make some
intelligent suggestions.

My guess is that the solution is fairly simple.
My guess is based upon examining a VCD which I bought
(printed VCD not burned).
This VCD is in ROM_XA format, first track MODE2_FORM1,
second and third tracks are MODE2_FORM2 (including the videos).
When I insert the VCD in my CD ROM, the videoes are listed
as plain files (with ".dat" extention).

So my guess is that a good ROM_XA mastering software
can create for any file (or even for any folders tree)
an ISO image file with "MODE2_FORM1" header or
"MODE2_FORM2" header;
when burrning that ISO (e.g. by CDRDAO) these headers
will tell the CDROM about the organization of the
binari data files which are included
in the ISO image file (the same was they tell the CDROM
about organization in VCD).

I know about a "candidate" which can do that job (I don't know him
personnally in any way !!!), his name is Herbert Valerio Riedel
and he is developing VCD mastering program under GNU
(GNU is the freeware organization which supports LINUX
freeware, GCC compiler PHP and other zilion freeware projects).
I think that a minimal mastering program for ROM_XA might
take him very short time, so maybe he might accept a short
pause in his VCD mastering project
his home page is WWW.GNU.ORG/SOFTWARE/VCDIMAGER.

Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
Ok, thanks. I'll wait for your guide, but I think that the fact that only isobuster can read the track should be solved. Do you think it's possible?

amni

30th January 2002, 13:22

I just test if my registration to this forum was not canceled
by mistake.

Also, more good news will be announced after
thorough testing.
Hint: reading the burned 800MB CD might be very easy.

Originally posted by amni
Hi

I'm not CDR programmer, therefore i can only make some
intelligent suggestions.

My guess is that the solution is fairly simple.
My guess is based upon examining a VCD which I bought
(printed VCD not burned).
This VCD is in ROM_XA format, first track MODE2_FORM1,
second and third tracks are MODE2_FORM2 (including the videos).
When I insert the VCD in my CD ROM, the videoes are listed
as plain files (with ".dat" extention).

So my guess is that a good ROM_XA mastering software
can create for any file (or even for any folders tree)
an ISO image file with "MODE2_FORM1" header or
"MODE2_FORM2" header;
when burrning that ISO (e.g. by CDRDAO) these headers
will tell the CDROM about the organization of the
binari data files which are included
in the ISO image file (the same was they tell the CDROM
about organization in VCD).

I know about a "candidate" which can do that job (I don't know him
personnally in any way !!!), his name is Herbert Valerio Riedel
and he is developing VCD mastering program under GNU
(GNU is the freeware organization which supports LINUX
freeware, GCC compiler PHP and other zilion freeware projects).
I think that a minimal mastering program for ROM_XA might
take him very short time, so maybe he might accept a short
pause in his VCD mastering project
his home page is WWW.GNU.ORG/SOFTWARE/VCDIMAGER.

SonicFRAG

10th February 2002, 15:25

This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

amni

10th February 2002, 18:56

Of any binary data as XA mode2 form2.
Sorry I'm a bit busy, but I'll publish something usefull soon.

Maybe you don't realize that there are two problems:
"burning" and "retrieval": I guess the "standard CD drivers" of
can't retrieve XA mode2 form2 as simply as they retieve CDROM mode1, or CDROM CDDA, or XA mode 2 form1 (the last case is
read similarly to CDROM mode1 data).

I heard (not confirmed) that the two tracks method
(one track mode2 form1 second track mode2 form2)
is sort of trick to make the mode2 form2 track readable via
a "pointer" in the mode2 form1 track.
Any way, I don't see any special reason why such trick
can't be appllied for any binary data file in the second
mode2 form2 track; looks like burners software don't
think this is something usefull (I do, because sometimes
a man needs the extra 13 percent store in the CDR).

Currently I can retieve XA mode2 form2 only using the program
ISOBUSTER (no trick needed); I thought I can do better but I was
wrong (so far).

Originally posted by SonicFRAG
This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

SonicFRAG

22nd February 2002, 15:52

Just wondering if anyone has come up with a way of putting 800mb on an 80min cd?
All these great ideas in this thread, must have come to something???

amni, any progress??

amni

22nd February 2002, 16:55

Originally posted by SonicFRAG
Just wondering if anyone has come up with a way of putting 800mb on an 80min cd?
All these great ideas in this thread, must have come to something???

amni, any progress??

I've done this, and tested 6 disks with zero errors.
I'll publish *soon* the methods (at least the essential part soon).

I should comment that the method is a bit clumsy (it proves
feasabilty but only CDR software programmer may
create a friendly software). "Fiendliness" means that one can
read the burned file systems directly (eg, reading right from
WINDOWS EXPLORERE). In my method, one can read only via
programs like ISOBUSTER.

CavalloPazzo

22nd February 2002, 23:44

Have you tried asking some developer about this? Do you know if somene is working on a such program?

movmasty

24th February 2002, 21:09

since the dvd is 4.7gigs, and begin to be writable
would be more simple to realize a double CD, 1300mb
i think that will be more simple and cheap than a double layer of same size.

normal CDs cant really go under 25c,just for commercial reasons
a double CD of 1300mb, will soon reach that low price
and will be always very cheaper that dvd-r.

is some year that i hear about double-cd circulating in Asia,
anyone knows about this??

see also the CD size pool that i started here

amni

2nd March 2002, 06:21

I mentioned in this thread a specific person
(the developer of VCDEASY, or the developer
of VCDIMAGER, I think).
Who can give a nice solution to the
problem of "reading directly" the burned stuff.

In principle, this might be a solution not different
from reading VCD CDs from computer
(you can read files with extention like ".dat"
consisting of movies as if they are plain data files,
although they are in MODE2 FORM2 format).

I didn't write to him since I didn't write as yet my guide
to my method of burning.
I don't believe that he will even start writing anything
before repeating my experiments (no body start
any "developing initiative" without having
serious evidence that the target which wants to achieve
is *feasible*, my method is such "feasibility evidence").

Sorry, I can't at this moment finish my guide.
There is not much to finish the basic guide but I'm so
much troubled with other thinks that I can't
even write this simple post.

I'll try to finish my basic guide this week, but can't
promise.

Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
Have you tried asking some developer about this? Do you know if somene is working on a such program?

int 21h

1st April 2002, 16:28

Originally posted by SonicFRAG
This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

Shenmue II was 3 or 4 cds when it was copied from the original GD-ROM.

MaTTeR

1st April 2002, 18:45

Tronic and Ingo, coders of the upcoming MCF file format have been looking into this as well. It seems a problem comes up when trying to extract the MCF data from the CDROM XA. Windows and Linux are unable to see the CDROM in a filesystem sort of way.

Anyone aware of some sort of driver hack or driver project that would allow the CDROM to be seen as a filesystem? It seems were close but some nasty obstacles keep jumping in the way.

movmasty

1st April 2002, 20:46

you are missing somethin,
that is to know if a given file format can work w/o error correction.

mpg format works like a plain text file, if there is an error,you'll lose just one character or few characters, all the rest will be ok,
unless you loose a part of the header.

avis work like a program, if you loose one bit,you loose all.
and it isnt just about the header, but along all the file.

now,dunno exactly about SVCD,but VCD,that is 172kB/s(140video+28 audio)can last at max 64 minutes on a 650mb-74minutes CD,
then its written in mode 1.

The fact is that when there is audio mpeg files lose their magic,
due to audio/video sync issues mpeg files too are easy to get corrupted.
Es: virtual dub never fails to load a video only mpg,but very often fails to load mpgs with audio.

thus you could have pcm audio or mpg video only in mode 2,
dont think video+audio streams.....unless someone makes a better audiovideo syncronization.....and then some other writes a new burning option....

MaTTeR

1st April 2002, 21:01

@movmasty

The error correction is understood by everyone in this thread. We can get around that issue just using the MCF file format or by other means.

At issue is how to extract the data from a M2F2 CDROM type? According to Tronic, ISObuster is format specific.

int 21h

1st April 2002, 23:06

You would have to either formulate a new driver for Windows for the CDRom, or more likely, formulate an emulation program that can read the CD (similar to Daemon tools, etc)

avih

2nd April 2002, 00:22

assumming we're willing to live without error correction, isn't there any way to use vcd/svcd format to store arbitrary files??? it's easily read by standard pc-cdrom.....

movmasty

2nd April 2002, 05:21

>assumming we're willing to live without error correction, isn't there any way to use vcd/svcd format to store arbitrary files???

>The error correction is understood by everyone in this thread...
....oh :eek:

avih

2nd April 2002, 08:37

i didn't miss that post movmasty :) and i used the word assumption..., anyway, i wanna try for myself what does it mean "without error correction" i.e. will it still be playable after 1 playback? 2 playbacks? 50/100/1000 whatever.

i wanna experiment, but i (as others afaik) haven't yet managed to put an arbitrary file on a svcd file format.

avi

hyc

2nd April 2002, 12:14

You'll probably find that you will need to use the highest quality gold-colored CD-Rs if you try this, certainly your error rates will go up as the disc ages.

ppera2

2nd April 2002, 16:27

I thinked about this way of recording AVI's about one year ago.

But now, looking to my CD collection I must say that it is not worth.
Many CD is hard to read, and without error correction it will be disaster after couple years...

ChristianHJW

2nd April 2002, 16:53

Sorry for being late guys ... this happens if you dont check the 'General Section' in regular periods ... shame on me :( !

You may read these threads here http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=367 and here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18969 also, the subject was raised before a few times already.

About 1300 MB CDs or even DVDs : using mode 2 form 2 will always give you more storage capacity, even if your CD is bigger !! A 1300 MB CD should well be able to give you up to 1500 MB then, so all your nice 2 CD rips will fit on 1 CD then ;) ...

So, here is some more input :

1. AVI : This subject was discussed really more than one time and as a matter of fact it seems that good old AVI format is not at all prepared for this ! I was told not only the header will be problematic in case of reading errors, the whole file can be messed with a few bits missing or being wrong on some place ... so it seems you had to do a complete hack for this, and with respect to Ogg and MCF standing outside the front door this is really not worth it IMHO.

2. Ogg : We havent got any clear response on this from Ogg dev team, but it seems even Ogg has some neat CRC in the format that would allow using it for mode 2 form 2 discs. It should be, always bare in mind it was designed for stremaing also.

3. MCF : MCF was defined with Adler32 error correction and is extremely forgiving if any bytes or even blocks are missing. It will be a wise thing though to write the header itself ( although there is a safety copy of the header at the end of each file ) in normal mode and only the data itself in mode 2 form 2 ... but we are implementing this in the basic specs, as well as the possibility to split the whole file into several portions ( like 2 - 4 CDs, whatever ). Please check the MCF specs, technical section, on http://mcf.sourceforge.net for more info.

How to implement this :

Well there is a very good working implementation for S-VCDs we could use. A few things have to be done though :

- Create a program that can do CUE/BIN from a MCF file on HDD, so its ready to be burned with Nero/CDRDAO/EZ etc. ; this should respect the header specific mode burning, being well possible i was informed.

- Implement reading support into the MCF parser or another DirectShowFilter, so MCF files can be played directly from disc ! Please note that reading S-VCDs is not a basic feature of any Windows OS ( not sure about 98SE/ME ) !!! A virgin Win2k installation can not read S-VCDs directly, only after installing WinDVD ( or whatever ) the OS gets these capabilities ! This is not true for VCDs it seems, at least on my box it is working to copy/read the data directly from the CD to HDD, maybe because i have old version of PowerDVD installed, dont know.

- Create an extraction tool similar to VCDimager/VCDgear to be able to copy/read the data from disc to HDD.

It is well possible it seems, but requires some work to be done. If anybody is interested in joining the MCF dev team for this purpose, please PM me here.

Tronic

3rd April 2002, 00:56

What we're currently going to do with MCF:

All our sectors are Mode 2 sectors with 2336 octets of user-data.

Mode 2 sector structure: (total size 2352 o)
-Sync (00 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 00) (12 octets)
-Minute/Second/Frame (3 octets)
-Mode (02) (1 octet)
-User data (2336 o)

In our track,
-Sector 0: MCF-CD Header (contains X1 and X2 + some other data).
-Sectors 1 - X1: MCF (headers), with some kind of error _correction_.
-Sectors X1 - X2: MCF (data), no error correction, just detection (per-sector + per-cluster).
-Sectors X2 - END: MCF (headers), with ECC.

This would give us even more storage space than SVCD has. It seems that there is no reason to include any filesystem on the disc.

Writing stuff to a BIN-image is pretty easy. The only tricky part is calculating the ECC.

Reading stuff from CD or image, without ECC, is REALLY easy. Reading with ECC is somewhat tricky.

Todo:
-Figure out how TOC works: how to instruct players on how to read our track.
-Decide how to do that ECC.

movmasty

3rd April 2002, 03:25

reading S-VCDs is not a basic feature of any Windows OS ( not sure about 98SE/ME ) !!! A virgin Win2k installation can not read S-VCDs directly, only after installing WinDVD ( or whatever ) the OS gets these capabilities ! This is not true for VCDs it seems
this cause windows comes with a built in mpg1 driver,
old mpg1 is free,while you have to pay for mpg2.

Would be easy to make one driver for both mpg1 and 2,
but isnt done for commercial reasons.

as avi mpg could contain almost every codec(and in fact the mpg1 format is very less simple than many think,old mpg1 drivers cant read many new mpg1)
only you cant just add a dll with the new codec,but have to rewrite all the driver,
so would be possible,i think,also to implement any mpg4 codec in a mpg1+2+4 or mpg1+4 driver,
with the advantage that it will be supported immediately from existing players and editors.

ChristianHJW

3rd April 2002, 13:52

Originally posted by movmasty this cause windows comes with a built in mpg1 driver, old mpg1 is free,while you have to pay for mpg2. ... yes, maybe, but pls. be aware that the MPEG1 decoder itself isnt necessarily capable of reading the data from the disc directly also ... but its likely M$ built in such support, as it will allow all M$ OS to view VCDs with Mediaplayer ( does it ? ), bein main purpose for MPEG1 ..

I'd be interested to leanr if the elecard MPEG2 decoder has the ability to read/parse S-VCDs also ... time to ask Blacksun about that i guess ...

theReal

3rd April 2002, 18:47

but its likely M$ built in such support, as it will allow all M$ OS to view VCDs with Mediaplayer Windows is able to read VCD movies as normal files, Windows has also been able to read Audio CD's as normal files for a short while - but then the audio industry pressured MS to remove the direct Audio-CD reading (and now that they have done so, noone can copy audio CD's anymore, LOL)

I guess if it was only up to MS, Windows would be able to read & copy everything directly.

DeXT

4th April 2002, 21:02

I see a potential problem... when Windows reads a DAT file linked to the Mode2/XA area, it appends a RIFF header at the start of the file. This header is not present in the Mode2 video track (I've tested it). Also, the file is being read in RAW mode, i.e. it contains a sector header (sync,addr, mode) as well as subheader and EDC, every 2352 bytes.

So if you burn, say, an AVI file in the second track and link it from the first ISO track, you'll end with a AVI file with an additional RIFF header attached to it and lots ot sector headers to play with.

So any software reading this should bypass this extra data. This seems OS dependent (I don't know if Linux does the same when reading such files). Perhaps this is only related to "M" flag files...

Any thoughts?

int 21h

4th April 2002, 21:20

The biggest point you guys are missing is that Windows reads those file systems because they are declared standards (Whitebook, Greenbook, Yellowbook, etc) with Philips for Compact Discs.

Putting anything besides Mpeg2 in the Data area of a SVCD disc violates the standard, and its very likely it won't work correctly.

movmasty

5th April 2002, 10:01

burning mpg in mode 2 (http://www.vcdhelp.com/faq.htm#650)

oddball

7th April 2002, 04:52

Elecard reads S-VCD fine. Just have to open the MPG file from the folder on the S-VCD and it reads it as normal.

ChristianHJW

7th April 2002, 16:48

@oddball,

thanks mate, this is very helpful info .... by chance BlackSun has very good contact with the elecard guys ... so i know wht he has to ask them tomorrow :D !!

BTW : TRonic could create first 800 MB MCF CDs recetnly ( test only ) and updated the MCF CD specs accordingly.

Now its time to fix the header specs ...

ChristianHJW

9th April 2002, 13:09

Discussion about this subject is going on here if anybody is interested :
http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=367

If somebody had any input on how to make this possible using a DirectShowFilter or whatever to make direct reading from CD possible for playback we would appreciate a lot ...

ammer

9th April 2002, 15:27

Go to a cd-r burning site to find out more about this subject. They are more ahead on this subject usually. If you need a site, one could be sited. Post a message for me and i'll get a link to for more about over-burning.

MaTTeR

9th April 2002, 15:59

@ammer

Overburning isn't really the goal here. Were looking into an entirely different method of burning a format such as MCF to a standard 80min CD but at 800MB instead of the average overburn 710MB.

The focus is how to read the 800MB of data from the CD using standard Windows system calls, etc. It appears a non-M$ driver might be needed for such a beast.

ammer

9th April 2002, 16:30

Wouldn't you imagine cd-r "burners" have tried to burn 800mb files on 80min or even 74min cds already?...even a/v files for that matter.

ammer

9th April 2002, 16:34

And error corrections can become a matter also. I'd hate to watch a movie that ends 1/3 way through the movie.

evilhomer

9th April 2002, 17:15

Have you read any of the rest of this thread??? Don't jump in a thread on page 4 and start babbling about stuff already discussed on pages 1,2 and 3...

EDIT: sorry if that sounds harsh, but its so frustrating when I get an e-mail 'cause i've been following a thread and someone posts something addressed a week ago.

ammer

9th April 2002, 18:30

No, not really. Just don't want you guys reinventing the wheel and such. Unless its got steel belts and water treading treads though.

MaTTeR

9th April 2002, 21:17

@ammer

Please! Enough posts from you in this thread. Your totally off topic. Read the thread and then also read the MCF specs and then come back with advice.

Hanty

9th April 2002, 22:03

I'm getting very mixed information about this subject, and despite my private research I have been unable to find a source that really goes into this. But from what I've learned it feels like we are starting out in the wrong end.

Should we not also ask ourselves what new properties the format of the 700Mb+ stuff we want to burn will recieve by effectively changing it to such a degree that it to the computer resembles (for example) an image or mpeg2?

To me I find that a change in the files structure itself in order to achieve the 700Mb+ burnable ability is more realistic than picking apart the fat32/NTFS and messing with hardware configs. (That's my logic as a hardware guy ;) software people might totally blast me for such a notion)

movmasty

9th April 2002, 22:19

>change in the files structure itself

as i said, mpg only video dont need error correction, with audio they need
i guess that to burn SVCD in mode2 the audio/video syncro was done in a different way,but dunno exactly

ChristianHJW

10th April 2002, 12:26

Originally posted by Hanty
To me I find that a change in the files structure itself in order to achieve the 700Mb+ burnable ability is more realistic than picking apart the fat32/NTFS and messing with hardware configs. (That's my logic as a hardware guy ;) software people might totally blast me for such a notion) .... in fact, yes ! If i understand you correctly, could you please tell me how we could distribute the firmware upgrades for all CD drivers out there to make them support MCF ;) ?

The normal CD specs give us enough space on normal discs without any overburning or changing hardware specs .. al we need is to do the same as the S-VCD guys are doing, get rid of all the redundant error correction stuff, movies are no files/software.

Mode 2 Form 2 is part of the standard CD specs, every CD drive does support it, and you can easily bring 800 MB on any normal 700 MB CD without overburning.

Of course ( once again ) you cant do this with good old AVI standard because its not prepared for this, but both MCF and Ogg can do it as they have internal error correction in the format system.

We cant use the same tools as the S-VCD guys do, because these are no MPEG2 streams but MCF of Ogg streams we are writing, but we could have a close look how they were doing things .... happening right now !! ;) ...

... stay tuned, there is more to come from the 'new A/V formats' ..

@ammer : rant#3 ... please read a thread and try to understand it before replying .. you obviously missed the point completely here ! Enforcing Overburning is a very very bad thing for a new movie format, especially if you want to achieve enhanced compatibility as MCF is targeting ...

temporance

10th April 2002, 13:10

If Ogg and MCF have sufficient error correction to fix CDROM read errors, then they will have similar ECC overhead to M2F1 and M1. So, the extra 100Mbyte capacity available from M2F2 will be occupied by the file format's own error correction. --> no benefit.

IMHO, Ogg/MCF have error detection, not error correction. This is not needed in M2F2 as M2F2 already has built-in error detection.

Remember, the key point is to work like SVCD and audio CDs, that is to use a combination of error detection and error concealment (skipping frames/muting audio) instead of error correction.

And the AVI format is not useless for this application if handled right. It might be a good idea to start experimenting with a known file format and a new disk format rather than trying to work with two relative unknowns. :)

EDIT: Is there any opensource CD burner project that this could be hooked into?
EDIT2: Yes, see http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html for burning, not sure about reading

Hanty

10th April 2002, 18:20

If i understand you correctly, could you please tell me how we could distribute the firmware upgrades for all CD drivers out there to make them support MCF ;) ?

By FTP, http, IRC or even mail if push comes to shove ;)

Well seriously, like I said I'm a hardware guy and I wont pretend that I fully understand the problems that face the software solution.

But if you allow me to digress and come back to ogg, what will it take to fit 800Mb of .ogg and .ogm on a CD?

ChristianHJW

10th April 2002, 18:32

Originally posted by Hanty
But if you allow me to digress and come back to ogg, what will it take to fit 800Mb of .ogg and .ogm on a CD? ... well, probably the best would be to talk to Tronic on IRC, openprojects , #mcf ( he is there quite often ) and ask him how he is planning implementation for MCF ... then reading the reply from the elecard developer here http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=367 and finally talk to Tobias Waldvogel in the 'New A/V formats' forums here at Doom9 ( see my signature ) or on http://tobias.everwicked.com to see if he could modify his Ogg splitter accordingly .. this is how i would do it if i could code :D !!

ReferenceDivx

11th April 2002, 05:36

How will the new hardware players read divx and Mpeg4 files? Maybe they are thinking of making a new cd format. Maybe someone that has info on how divx players are going to support divx and Mpeg4 can respond. Maybe the people from Divx Networks are thinking of a new CD format?

DeXT

11th April 2002, 22:00

I think it's still too soon for a standard specification for MPEG-4 on DVD, latest news suggest that the DVD Forum may be thinking in dropping MPEG-4 due to its high licensing costs and adopt a different format... http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20020329S0023

I think Whitebook is the way to go. I.e. create a ISO-Bridge CD-ROM/XA format with a first ISO M2F1 track linking to several M2F2 tracks with the actual movie data. This is already supported by Windows and all that is needed is a DirectShow filter that is able to read RAW track data and discard the RIFF header and unneeded sector stuff. MS MPEG-1 Spliter and Elecard MPEG-2 Splitter already do this (as pointed by Peter from Elecard).

temporance

12th April 2002, 11:18

Hello DeXT,

"ISO M2F1 track linking to several M2F2 tracks with the actual movie data."

Yes, that is what I was thinking too. But, to me it seems that Yellow Book (CDROM) has all we need without worrying about any VCD aspects of White Book (VCD).

BTW, anyone have a copy or synopsis of the colored books?? Any useful information in electronic form?

It looks like Linux would be the best platform for experimenting, but it's going to take me some time to get Linux up and running :-(

It's time to start collecting some resources - is this forum the best place to discuss? BTW, I am agnostic on file format - just fascinated by the potential in the CD technology :-)

EDIT: also does anyone have any info on the file formats bin/cue and iso?

ChristianHJW

12th April 2002, 12:52

Originally posted by temporance also does anyone have any info on the file formats bin/cue and iso? [/B]

@temporance :

This problem is solved already, Tronic had already been able to create CUE/BIN files for 800 MB MCF CDs AFAIK.

@DeXT, temporance :

what can i do to motivate you to join the MCF coder team :D ?

You should try to talk to Tronic, ingo and robux4 sooner or later if you're really interested in this subject and helping with giving 800 MB Cds to the community.

Best way is IRC, openprojects server, #mcf or #mediaxw . In the #powerdivx ( same server ) forum you can meet ingo by time.

Or you send mail to the MCF developers mailing list, mcf-devel at lists dot sourceforge dot net ..... a first impression of MCF is to be found here : http://mcf.sourceforge.net .

DeXT

12th April 2002, 16:05

Thank you very much for your invitation ChristianHJW, the only problem is, I have very little knowledge about programming, althought I've gained some good knowledge about physical CD formats and CD image formats (feel free to take a look at my small web cdirip.cjb.net).

Sorry about the confussion, when I talked about Whitebook I meant the physical format, i.e. CD-Bridge with ISO and RAW tracks. Tronic has done a good work but if I've understood well, he is just writting files as RAW tracks, creating a CD that is illegible for Windows, and that either must be extracted from a CD tool such as ISObuster for it to be viewed, or needs direct (complex) software support. I personally think this is not the best approach. What he lacks is a ISO-Bridge track which makes it all readable from within Windows (i.e. the same as VCD), and greatly simplifies things, only requiring a DirectShow filter which is able to discard RAW data from the movie file.

The good news is, this has already been done, and as Open Source: it's called VCDImager (www.vcdimager.org). With this tool you can insert RAW files inside the ISO structure, just like VCD tracks. The only problem is, since this is a VCD tool, it still wants at least one MPEG track and all the VCD stuff like PBCs etc that we just don't need. The goal would be removing all this stuff from the source code and create a simple tool which can do exactly what we want. This is the magic of Open Source :)

I've been digging at VCDImager sources but since I'm poorly skilled for this I think it will be very difficult for me to do this alone, at least in a clean way. If someone wants to help it would be great. For now I think I'll keep in contact with MCF team through IRC, just as a contributor.

Let's see if we can do something good here...

@temporance: take a look at ECMA-130 and ECMA-168 from www.ecma.ch, I think these are the only free CD-ROM standards available on the Net.