PAL, NTSC, Progressive and Interlaced Options

[gonzalo76]

Hi, some questions:

1. Disable "interlaced"
"Source for the selected VTS will be treated as progressive -- meaning "interlaced=true" will not be added to the ConvertToYUY() line, no Deinterlacing will be applied, Zig-Zag encoding will be used, and the progressive flag will be set. See this post for more information on ConvertToYUY(). Also, note that this is only an override for incorrectly flagged progressive material that would erroneously be treated as interlaced. Progressive material, that is flagged correctly, will be treated properly automatically."


I really don't understand what does Interlaced or Progressive mean.
Which RB options should I use if a movie is Interlaced or Progressive?
PAL or NTSC does it mean something here?



2. "Deinterlace with DECOMB
"You must have installed the Decomb plugin and defined it's path in the DVD-RB SETUP window before you can use this option.
If Enabled, Interlace sources are deinterlaced with the fielddeinterlace() function of the Decomb Package. This is recommended if you plan on viewing your output primarily on a progressive display, such as your computer."


So, if I plan to view the output primarily on my pc monitor should I use this option?
What if I plan to view it on my TV ?

[mrslacker]

Originally posted by gonzalo76
Hi, some questions:
So, if I plan to view the output primarily on my pc monitor I should use this option?
And if I plan to view it in my TV ?

wmansir's original answer (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=474136#post474136) to that question. You probably shouldn't bother. Recent threads seem to indicate that its uses are primarily limited to PAL users for compression sake. Look at some recent threads (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80224) for a better perspective.

Do a google for interlaced and progressive encoding to learn how dvd content is stored. Just know that while many/most dvds are encoded in an interlaced manner, software and hardware deinterlacers are designed to display (with varying levels of success) this material at full resolution given the proper display.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by gonzalo76
So, if I plan to view the output primarily on my pc monitor I should use this option?
And if I plan to view it in my TV ? Definitely not. This was added for very specific circumstances that some experienced users were encountering. Sometimes I doubt whether I should have even added the options -- because they confuse the uninitiated.

Some Computer DVD players just suck. But people use them anyway (everyone has his/her favorites). The really bad ones won't play interlaced sources properly -- you get combing effects as it plays. By using decomb() you can use an algorithm that smooths the interlacing. It also makes it less clear on a standard standalone player using as television/monitor for output.

As for the "Disable Interlace" -- for some reason you will very rarely run across a DVD that is progressive but encoded as interlaced. The playback works fine, but a true videophile doesn't like it when he/she has a progressive source that can't play back as progressive. It seems to happen a little more often on PAL DVDs...

You are almost always better off leaving all DVD-RB options at their default values.

[Faust2]

I must admit, I regularly deinterlaced my stuff :( because I watch it normally on the computer...

So it's good to know it's better to rely on the playback deinterlacing. What made me think: If the original looks good with p.e. power dvd's deinterlacing, why shouldn't the rebuilded version look as good??

Konfuzius says:

Some Computer DVD players just suck.


I would be interested in wich Software DVD players he recommends / doesn't recommend?

[jdobbs]

I would be interested in wich Software DVD players he recommends / doesn't recommend?If I answered that -- I'd have half of the forum arguing about it...

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Faust2
What made me think: If the original looks good with p.e. power dvd's deinterlacing, why shouldn't the rebuilded version look as good?? It should.

[Faust2]

Originally posted by jdobbs
If I answered that -- I'd have half of the forum arguing about it...

OK, i see :D

IMHO power DVD's deinterlacing is the best!

\ducks

[Blackout]

"for some reason you will very rarely run across a DVD that is progressive but encoded as interlaced. "

I disagree with this statement, i just did 5 dvds , and 3 of them had this set incorrectly...its VERY prevalent in PAL dvds im afraid. :(

I think the main reason for this problem is that the Hollywood companies think about NTSC and the US market first and foremost. So they do a proper DVD build of that first with a major DVD creation company and spend the bucks on it. A lot of the time, the PAL dvd is thrown together afterwards with a third party company [insert "clueless amateur mob"] overseas....

[wmansir]

Originally posted by Faust2
So it's good to know it's better to rely on the playback deinterlacing. What made me think: If the original looks good with p.e. power dvd's deinterlacing, why shouldn't the rebuilded version look as good??

In terms of play-time deinterlacing VS preprocessed (via decomb) deinterlacing, you are right. By default DVD-RB will recreate the original structure. So if your software DVD player deinterlaces the original fine on playback, it should do the same with the DVD-RB output.

However, when you get into whether using Decomb will look better or not, you also have to consider that CCE isn't the best encoder when it comes to interlaced content. It's a highly subjective equation, depending on the source type/quality, bitrate, encoder settings, display method, and the viewer. Personally I don't do it, but I think it's a nice option for those who prefer to.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Faust2
IMHO power DVD's deinterlacing is the best! You should also give the newest version of Nero's ShowTime player a try. It's surprisingly good.


Cheers

[wmansir]

Originally posted by gonzalo76
I really don't understand what does Interlaced or Progressive mean.
Which RB options should I use if a movie is Interlaced or Progressive?
PAL or NTSC does it mean something here?


Here's good page to learn about interlaced vs progressive, deinterlacing, PAL and NTSC ect. A very informative and well put together site,Luke's Video Guide (http://neuron2.net/LVG/default.htm). Most of the info you want is in the 'interlacing' section.

By default DVD-RB tries to replicate the original as best it can. These advanced options are mostly for those who want to 'improve' the original. For the most part they should be left alone.

[mrslacker]

Originally posted by Faust2

IMHO power DVD's deinterlacing is the best!


hometheaterhifi.com agrees with you on in their reviews (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=Software&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0). The haven't tested that many software players though. They also have a great guide (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html) about interlacing, etc. Its very in depth... more than I could absorb in one sitting. It has helped me to get at least a basic understanding of the subject and a great understanding of why there is so much confusion!

EDIT: I like media player classic for its simplicity, and it seems to handle dvds well. Can select blend, weave, or bob deinterlacing methods.

[gonzalo76]

Hi, thank you all for your replies !!!

1. So, I checked my dvd disc and it was progressive, so what options should I use in RB in order to play the resulting movie in my monitor and in my television?

2. Is it possible to watch the same resulting movie on a progressive display (monitor) and my television?

3. When you say PAL users, what do you mean? That the dvd player is PAL, or the dvd disc is PAL ?

4. I don't understand the difference between "Steal space from extras" and "Half-D1 and Half space for extras".

Again, thank you all for your help !!!

[jdobbs]

1. Leave all settings at the defaults and let DVD-RB make the decisions. The more you change, the greater the likelihood of problems.

2. Yes. It should work fine.

3. Both. A PAL DVD is set up for 25fps and a specific set of frame sizes, and so is the player. Some players will play both PAL and NTSC... but normally you only play the movies for your region.

4. Steal space from extras will keep the video frame size the same, but allow you to increase the movie quality by reducing the quality of extras (by reallocating storage space). Half/half does the same thing, but also reduces the output video resolution so that it only has (about) half as many pixel units. So, you would get roughly the same quality (at lower resolution) at half the bitrate. The freed space gets allocated to the movie (and increases quality). Using both together will then reduce the half/half size by the amount chosed in "steal"

[f@chance]

I just did my first back-up of the PAL version of the West Wing season 3 and it looked horrible without deinterlacing on my TV. In the opening scene where the flag is waving in front of the White House the edges of that flag had artifacts big time. I was surprised by this because the original DVD did not show this.

Used the deinterlacing with Decomb feature and the artifacts were not noticable. I don't know about this DVD who and where is was made. The R1 will not be out until later this year while the R2 has been out since June, mind you the R2 is bare bones.

One2Go

[gonzalo76]

Hi there, thank you jdobbs for your reply.
Well, I finally finished transcoding my first dvd with RB and everything went just fine, RB is amazing!!!

Some things:

1. I wonder why you can't choose to transcode 'main movie only' or delete unwanted titles like extras or menus?
(I know that I can extract the main movie only with DVD Decrypter first anyway)

2. And of course, why it doesn't support multiangles DVDs?

3. I saw a new option under 'Options' + 'Setup': "ANGLE TO KEEP"
What does it mean?

Again, thank you all for your replies !!!

[jdobbs]

1. It was designed for full DVD backup.

2. Because it isn't done yet.

3. That's there for when angles are implemented, you will have the option of keeping an angle as opposed to reproducing all of them -- I forgot to hide it.

[gonzalo76]

I'll use RB for ever but, how can I do to use it if a movie or music video dvd has multiangles ? Which software should I use ?

Again, thank you jdoobs for your help

[jdobbs]

Either wait for the next version -- or some people have said they have good results with DVDRemake.

[gonzalo76]

You bet I will wait for the next version jdobbs !!!

[Faust2]

Jdobbs;

Thanks again for the clarification about the usage of the "deinterlace with decomb" setting. I now have done some jobs without deinterlacing, and generally it works very well.

However, I have a suggestion: wouldn't it be possible to tell rb to deinterlace just certain vts's? Because like wmansir said, I got the impression that deintelacing can be a good thing when you have a low br, as you have often in the specials, when you use the steal space or half&half options. I just made a project where i changed (with rb-opt) the avs's of one titleset to use fielddeinterlace() and convert...(), but although it came out flawlessly (and very acceptable for something like 1700 ABR for the extras), I wonder if it is good that rebuilder assumes the m2v's to be interlaced, when they are actually progressive...

probably not :)

PS: has anybody maybe any idea about

this problem ?? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=544208#post544208)

Thanks in advance for any hints!

[jdobbs]

Actually it won't hurt much if you playback on a television. It won't let you use the progressive capability of your player, though. If you do fielddeinterlace() it is probably better that you use the "Disable Interlaced" option and it will flag it and treat it as progressive. Are you sure RB-Opt doesn't do that?

But -- to everyone who reads this so it stays in context... I am not recommending fielddeinterlace()... I still say you are almost always better leaving the stream in its original format.

[Faust2]

Hmm, I probably didn't express myself well. :)

I suggested to make the "deinterlace with decomb"-option working at a per-vts-level, not for the whole dvd, like it is now, because I think maybe its good to deinterlace only the extras in case they get a very much lower ABR then the main movie. I can do this now by editing the related avs's in rb-opt, but i wondered if the rebuild phase works well if rb doesn't know some titlesets have been deinterlaced...

(reading again)

or do you mean i should enable the "disable interlaced" option for the extras, edit the avs's of the extras in rb-opt and this way the rebuild phase will work properly ? :confused:

or am I making it more complicated?

[jdobbs]

I was answering this: "I wonder if it is good that rebuilder assumes the m2v's to be interlaced, when they are actually progressive..."

I don't think really see how you'll get much of a lower bitrate by running fielddeinterlace() alone -- I think most of the time people also run telecide/decimate which lowers bitrate (but you definitely don't want to do that with DVD-RB), but I guess anything is possible.

I suppose it wouldn't be difficult to move change the "Deinterlace with Decomb" option so it works on individual VTSs.

[Faust2]

I see, thanks; sorry but I didn't get it the first time :rolleyes:

It's only because wmansir said,
However, when you get into whether using Decomb will look better or not, you also have to consider that CCE isn't the best encoder when it comes to interlaced content.
so I thought "maybe I should use decomb in low-br-situations, so CCE dosn't need so much bitrate!" I got the impression it worked, because normally the extras are interlaced, and of course often they don't look so good with steal space enabled, but in this case I was really pleased with the quality...(i also used undot-deen...)

As to how rb-opt works, its (in this respect) just an avs-editor, it lets you insert and delete lines for the avs's of one titleset.

[Kwark]

How good is DVD-RB with detecting progressive/interlaced content for PAL titles? I've come across plenty PAL titles that were progressive (if I trust my eyes), but the headers said they were interlaced.

Does DVD-RB read the headers or does it do its own analyzing?
Or am I better off with forcing progressive if I'm 100% sure (Disable interlaced under AVS options)?

[TheSeeker]

@Kwark

Really if you are 100% sure the content is progressive setting the disable interlace=TRUE setting can not hurt at all. You may want to do this as RB could theoretically incorrectly detect the video. Im thinking this is the very reason Jdobbs first put this option in. Dont quote me on this however as I dont know how RB does its detection.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Kwark
How good is DVD-RB with detecting progressive/interlaced content for PAL titles? I've come across plenty PAL titles that were progressive (if I trust my eyes), but the headers said they were interlaced.

Does DVD-RB read the headers or does it do its own analyzing?
Or am I better off with forcing progressive if I'm 100% sure (Disable interlaced under AVS options)? DVD-RB looks at the MPEG stream itself to determine whether it is progressive or interlaced. There are rare instanced reported on PAL sources in which the original was progressive but is marked as interlaced (that is the reason for the option). But the MPEG stream normally doesn't lie -- and I would suggest letting DVD-RB do the detecting. If the original stream was shown as interlaced in the stream it was also played back interlaced, and it is my opinion that you should always stay with the format of the original.

[Zhnujm]

Originally posted by jdobbs
There are rare instanced reported on PAL sources in which the original was progressive but is marked as interlaced (that is the reason for the option).

There are MUCH more dvds that are flagged/encoded wrong than right with pal.
Even newest ones.

Usually thats no problem but if you use a progressive scan dvd player you will get a deinterlaced picture if the stream is flagged wrong. (and the player has no manual film mode)