Philips DVP642 owners, what's the highest divx bitrate that plays fine?

[catback]

Trying to get an idea of what kind of divx bitrates this player can play before it starts to skip. If you have played any high video bitrate files that also has MP3 audio, please list your audio and video bitrates as well as the file's video resolution.

Thanks.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi catback,

Not a bad idea to have this sort of information. And as this player uses an ESS chip-set, it might provide a useful indication as to its capabilities in other players.

Given also that this player (along with the DVP 630) can spin Mpeg4 streams within the .MP4 container as well as the .AVI container, it might be useful to find out whether the container type will make any difference to the encodes 'top-out' bit-rate!

I guess other conditions will apply, such as the encodes pixel frame size, so with this in mind I would recommend testing is done using the following pixel frame sizes: -

01: Small = 640x272 (An square pixel 2.35:1 frame size)
02: Medium = 640x480 (An square pixel full 4:3 frame size)
03: Large = 720x480 (An anamorphic pixel NTSC DVD frame size)


Cheers

[catback]

wow, all these views and only one reply?

somebody out there must have created a high video bitrate divx file and tried it on the dvp642. post your results.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sometimes these things happen!

That said, you could visit the threads posted by say, SpItoS, mateo4x4, Brother Darrell (and some other forum members) and ask your questions there!


Cheers

[minolta]

had problems (skips) with 3500 but okay with 2000. my guess is 2500 to 3000kbps. My test was 720x480 in resolution with b-frames.

[MrBunny]

I tried it without b-frames and it seemed to be 5000kbps (almost exactly). Seemed to be independent of resolution/AR. I tried 720x480, 640x480, 640x272 and 512x384 with the same result. I'll try some tests with b-frames this weekend I hope.

The sample I played with had bitrate of 5000 +/- 200 kbps and the parts below 5000 seemed fine and above were bad, so that seems to be a pretty firm number.

More specifics:
Custom MPEG quant matrix (six of nine matrix, in order to lower compressibility)
No B-VOPs
No QPEL, No Adaptive Quant, No GMC
VHQ 0, Motion Search 6 w/ Chroma Motion, Trellis Quantization

[BobNJ]

I am also very interested in other people's experience with 642 max divx bitrate.
My goal is to use inexpensive CD media to store weekend and vacation DV footage, without sacrificing much of original 720x480 29.97fps NTSC quality, and being able to add files as wanted...

However, I've been unable to play smoothly anything encoded above 2000kbps, no matter how defensive encoding I used. I used divx and xvid, interlacing on/off, without fancy switches, defensive overall. Above 2000kbps, skips. I tried MrBunny's xvid settings as well, no luck after 2000kbps.

Note my DVD backups, fitted on same CD's are playing smoothly. Also note DVD backed up on divx runs on fairly low bitrate, up to 1000kbps...

Given my question on divx.com forum (http://forums.divx.com/viewtopic.php?topic=61884&forum=21) and on videohelp forum (http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241110) remained unanswered, I am begining to doubt Philips 642 is able to play anything above 2000kbps and whole http://www.divx.com/certified/technical.php Home Theater Logo certification does not stand.
Anyone care to comment with his/her own experiences?

Tks,

Bob

[Leak]

Originally posted by BobNJ
However, I've been unable to play smoothly anything encoded above 2000kbps, no matter how defensive encoding I used. I used divx and xvid, interlacing on/off, without fancy switches, defensive overall. Above 2000kbps, skips. I tried MrBunny's xvid settings as well, no luck after 2000kbps.

I'd hazard a guess that you probably hit the drive's maximum CD read speed; try using a DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW (if possible) to see if it really can't cope with higher bitrates, as you can read much more data from a DVD at the same rotation speed...

[manono]

Yeah, I think you're probably right, Leak. My guess also is that MrBunny burns his to DVD-R to be able to achieve those bitrates.

Something interesting happened with mine, though (different model, with the Sigma chipset). The loaders (DVD-ROMs) that come with these things are 1x (perhaps for noise reasons, maybe for cost reasons) as far as I know. My loader gave out, and I replaced it with a 16x DVD-ROM I had lying around. Now movies that stuttered at the bitrate spikes before, keep playing smoothly. I haven't done any extensive testing on it yet, but except for the increased whirring noise sometimes, I was very pleasantly surprised to discover that little side benefit. I use only CD-Rs.

BobNJ-With the original loader, I found that the closer I was to the max 720x480 that these things support, the more quickly I would get the stuttering. I might suggest that you reencode to a lower resolution to see if that helps. In addition, the fact that you're using a fairly low average bitrate doesn't mean much. It's when the bitrate jumps temporarily that you have problems. I have some on CD-R with an average of about 3,000, that play smoothly, because the bitrate is fairly constant. But I have some on CD-R (martial arts movies) where the average is under 1000, but when the action starts, look out. I have found that using the DivX Home Theater Profile helps, because when the bitrate is about to jump, it starts using higher quants instead. It tends to make complex scenes blocky, so I don't use it, but it may help with your problem.

[BobNJ]

Thanks for the interesting replies.

Before I head to store to (finally) buy dvd burner, here's the result of (yet another) test I did:

Source, as ususal, DV, 720x480, ntsc, 29.97 fps, 10sec, with intentional complex scene change, shot from boat, complex overall

1st test:
2pass divx compression, 4000kbps avg bitrate, preserving interlace, result file:
3,243,008 bytes 10secdivx.avi

2nd test:
MPEG2 MainConcept, SVCD profile compression, all defaults,
result file:
3,289,088 bytes 10secsvcd.mpg

Burned on same cd-rw.

10secsvcd.mpg plays smooth (both as standalone file or as part of complete svcd)
10secdivx.avi hickups, stutter, lose audio, at complex scene change


Any comments on this?

Tks,

Bob

[Zhnujm]

I have seen this before with my Yamada 6000 (almost the same chipset as the Philips).
It could play MiniDVDs with a bitrate up to 6000 but with avi files the limit was lower than half of that.
AVI playback seems to be more demanding than MPEG-2 playback.
The bitrate limit from DVD was higher but i would not use more than 4000-4500 to be on the safe side.

[BobNJ]

Thanks everbody!

Given the replies in this and divx.com thread, I am fairly certain the reason is indeed in slow CD reading speed.
That was good enough reason to order dvd burner.
Will post final verdict after dvd play test.

Tks again,

Bob

[eb]

I am interesting if this player can play .avi with frame greater than 720x576.

on my page there is sample p7hd.01+++-+++.01+++.avi
it is 960x544 with rather low bitrate/don't look for quality/
audio mp3 ABR

ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl
user: www.eb.enterpol.pl
password : eb

[MrBunny]

Hi eb,

That sample did not work on my DVP642. It said "Reso. Not Supported" when trying to load it.

Yes, I was using DVD+RW when trying my high bitrate samples. It did seem that things were jerkier more easily when using CD-RW so manono's theory seems quite possible.

Hopefully I'll get some time free to experiment further with the player, It'd be nice to get it's capabilities documented.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Unfotunately many stand-alones don't seem to like to play encodes over 720 pixels wide!

But as the total number of pixels exceeds the chip-set limit of 414,720, then I doubt any current standard-def player will spin it anyway!


Cheers

[Rayray]

With my Philips 642, I have problem encoding in 720x480 resolution using b-frames. At exactly the same place in the movie (which I suppose is the complex frame with high bitrate), the screen always flicks if I encode with b-frame and sound. If I just encode the video with b-frame without muxing the sound though, then the 642 can play the video fine. It doesn't matter what bitrate I use though, whether at 1500kbps or a low 800kpbs, it always flicks at those exact frames in the movie with sound. BTW, I mux with AVIMux and checked with Gspot that there is no split in audio frame, so I don't think it is an issue with muxing. Without b-frame on, then the movie plays fine even with sound. At lower resolution like 640x432, then the movie plays fine with b-frame no matter which bitrate.

Another issue I have is with AC3 sound. If I mux the movie with the original AC3 sound, at 720x480, no matter how I encode, the AC3 sound always stutters at the exact spot in the movie. The sound is ok if I encode in MP3 though. This again is indepedent of the video bitrate I use, be it 800kpbs or 1500kpbs. At lower resolution, like 640x432, then the AC3 sound is ok.

So, my encoding option for my 642 is now restricted to resizing it smaller to 640 resolution. Is that a problem common to other 642 users?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Rayray and welcome to the forum,

Thanks for the detailed synopsis. B-VOP is indeed an interesting topic and without doubt different players appear to cope them very differently!

Which Mpeg4 codecs have you tried?

DivX5.2.x offers 1B-VOP with packed bit-stream or mB-VOP (multiple B-VOP up to a max of 2) without packed bit-stream.

The current version of XviD offers all manner of options and the new test version (XviD-1.1.-127-13102004), provides even more!

With regard to AVI-mux and 720x480 Mpeg4 B-VOP with AC3 audio, have you experimented with AVI-mux's "interleave" options?


Cheers

[Rayray]

Thanks SeeMoreDigital for your response. I indeed have been waiting for a long time to respond to this thread as I'm new to this forum and have just registered and found out I have to wait for 5 days before I can post.

I have been trying both DIVX 5.2.1 and XVID 1.0.2. For DIVX, I can't find the option to disable packed bitstream, but there is such option in XVID. I've tried both packed and unpacked bitstream in XVID B-VOP and that doesn't make a difference, video still flicks at the same point in the movie. I always use single B-frame as I think that should be more compatible. To eliminate problem of peak bitrate, I've also tried both using home theatre profile of DIVX and manually limiting peak bitrate to 4000kbps, and that doesn't make a difference.

I've experimented with a lot of different settings with the muxing. I've tried VDubMod using 96ms preload and 96ms interleave, and also tried AVIMux with all the different settings, with the best one preload 96ms and and interleave per 1 frame, with 3 AC3 frames per chunk. But still, the audio stutters at the same point in the movie whenever the video is 720x480.

[SeeMoreDigital]

There is not an option in DivX5.2.x to disable packed bit-stream but like I said, their "Adaptive Multiple Consecutive" (mB-VOP) option is able to generate encodes without it (by default) - however, this option is not included in DivX's player of certification and may not work!

Anyway this is immaterial, given that all the current Philips Mpeg4/DVD players are DivX Certified and are promoted on DivX's own web site, your player should be able to spin DivX with "Adaptive Single Consecutive" B-VOP, at high bitrates and at pixel frame sizes up to 720x480/576... If it can't, you might find it useful to directly ask the DivX guys (who frequent this forum) for a clarification!

By the way, have you tested your player with some of DivX's own "Trailer" encodes (http://www.divx.com/movies/trailers.php)...


Cheers

[BobNJ]

The problematic 720x480 divx sample stutters when played from DVD-R as well. The "slow CD-R reading" is apparently NOT an issue here.

I have no other options but posting the video sample:
10 sec 3 MB divx sample (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1qrsi/video/10secdivx.avi) (edited, now pointing to proper server)

This is 3MB file, 720x480, interlace preserved (same thing with deinterlacing), 29.97 fps, average bitrate nowhere near 4kbps.

When played on my 642, at complex scene change, audio is lost and motion becomes jerky.

I would appreciate if anyone care to take a quick look...

Thanks,

Bob

[eb]

Sorry i have not standalone player but i processed your sample in VirtualDubMod to get the same length of audio and video.
I am interesting if this sample named 10secdivx+.avi is keeping this wrong behavier.
ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl
user: www.eb.enterpol.pl
password : eb

[MrBunny]

Is it just me or does that sample break-up at 4.5 secs until the keyframe at near the end or is that just a result of the interlace mode?
Maybe a completely uncompessed avi/mpeg2 might be better for testing.

[SeeMoreDigital]

The sample does indeed appear to be b0rked :(

It plays okay in Nero's ShowTime and VLC. However, if you extract the audio stream it will play in DivX player 2.5.5.


Cheers

[eb]

I tried to repair audio.
Samples: 10secdivx222.avi and 10secdivx+rep+.avi
I am interested in your opinion

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by eb
I tried to repair audio.
Samples: 10secdivx222.avi and 10secdivx+rep+.avi
I am interested in your opinion I'm sorry to say, both are still b0rked here :(

EDIT: I forgot to mention both clips play fine in hardware, using my Xcard.

And I've also re-muxed the audio and video streams (from your 10secdivx222 file) into the MP4 container... Maybe some people will have more luck playing "high bitrate" Mpeg4 streams in the MP4 container instead?

I've just finished uploading the file to your server.


Cheers

[BobNJ]

Thank you all for prompt and detailed analysis.

I was also prompted by your reply of 'b0rked' video which inspired me to leave mighty Vegas which I used for rendering and switch to good ole virtualdub.

Sure enough, when same DV clip was encoded with 'same' divx settings, using virtualdub, my philips played the clip smoothly.

I am currently continuing with tests, but so far, the problem seems to be in encoding application, that being Vegas.
Once again, Virtualdub proved to be superior to other $$oftware.

By the way, how did you quickly found the clip was b0rked? Tools? (I know, should search myself).

Sorry for taking your time for what seems to be user error.


Thanks,

Bob

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Bob,

Well, the encodes "stutter" at the start. And then this happens: -

http://img87.exs.cx/img87/6751/SMD_b0rked_10secdivx222_in_avi_encode.jpg

Also, with the encodes being "simple profile" they should play okay using any Mpeg4 DSdec filter.


Cheers

[BobNJ]

Well, all the samples, including posted, b0rked (I like the word) one, were playing -ok- at -my- machine.
Thats' why I blamed the 642 so confidentialy.

I reckon I should use Vegas for editing and effects only and leave rendering to the Mother of all renderers, Virtualdub.

Thanks again

Robert

[Rayray]

Regarding my earlier 720x480 problem with Philips 642, I've further tested some encoding. I just tried encoding in size 704x464 with single b-frame using Divx 5.2.1 at 2500kbps, and the result is a lot more acceptable than 720x480, there are a lot less flicks. I then tried 688x448, and the result is almost perfect at 2500kbps with original AC3 sound at 192k. So I am coming to the conclusion that the Philips 642's DIVX deconding is somewhat restricted when it comes to maximum resolution.

I live in Australia and my problem with the 642 AC3 sound could be quite unique as our 642 model in Australia has Dolby decoder built in and I'm using those channel output to feed to my cheap surround amp. I believe other 642 in the US don't have Dolby decoder.

[ookzDVD]

Originally posted by Rayray
Regarding my earlier 720x480 problem with Philips 642, I've further tested some encoding. I just tried encoding in size 704x464 with single b-frame using Divx 5.2.1 at 2500kbps, and the result is a lot more acceptable than 720x480, there are a lot less flicks. I then tried 688x448, and the result is almost perfect at 2500kbps with original AC3 sound at 192k. So I am coming to the conclusion that the Philips 642's DIVX deconding is somewhat restricted when it comes to maximum resolution.

I live in Australia and my problem with the 642 AC3 sound could be quite unique as our 642 model in Australia has Dolby decoder built in and I'm using those channel output to feed to my cheap surround amp. I believe other 642 in the US don't have Dolby decoder.

If you don't mind, could you check the version of your player ?
it will be better if you could take the picture of the back part
of your player with your digicam :)

Thank you.

[Rayray]

If you don't mind, could you check the version of your player ?

My model is 642K/75, it's also got karaoke ;-)

[eb]

I prepared sample mpg+mp3ABR.mpg, see page address at the top of this page.
It can be played on VIDEOLAN VLCPlayer. mplayer , and mplayer classic
I am interested if standalone can playback this saample?

eb